TIF, CID, TDD, and the BOA!
Ladies and Gentlemen, it appears that the BOA may be voting very soon on combining the three political sub-divisions known as the "TIF, CID, and TDD" into one entity.
On the surface this doesn't look so bad, until you consider that each has a different sunset, with the TDD being the longest (40 years.) This means that we could be indebted to the TDD for the entire project should they wish to use it, as it has the longest sunset date. Also combining the three clouds the issue of what district is paying for what, as they will all be commingled.
I don't know about you folks, but in my mind, this should not be allowed to happen! I also wonder why we plan to commingle at the time we may start selling the bonds (from a project completed three years ago,)as they have to be sold sometime. I am wondering why it has taken three years to get around to selling these bonds in the first place, and for that matter how we are planning to do it.
I feel we all should be calling our respective Alderman, and ask them for a full accounting of this project, and what bond is paying for what part of the project! If they do vote to commingle, it will really be hard to get a straight answer from anyone, and this is too much money spent for that!
When you view the TDD which took in the swim club, we have another opportunity which will be interesting, as at least three (could be four) Board members are members of, have close relatives, or hold stock themselves in Rosebrook Realty (swim club,) so they will have to recuse themselves from voting on the issue at all! In fact we may not have a quorum present to hold the vote period when you consider that the TDD is a major part of this issue.
Please call your Alderman, ask him for his/ her take on this subject, and if, like me you feel that commingle is not the right way to do this, tell them so, and then attend the Alderman meeting to watch this play out.
Tom Ford
No.124
On the surface this doesn't look so bad, until you consider that each has a different sunset, with the TDD being the longest (40 years.) This means that we could be indebted to the TDD for the entire project should they wish to use it, as it has the longest sunset date. Also combining the three clouds the issue of what district is paying for what, as they will all be commingled.
I don't know about you folks, but in my mind, this should not be allowed to happen! I also wonder why we plan to commingle at the time we may start selling the bonds (from a project completed three years ago,)as they have to be sold sometime. I am wondering why it has taken three years to get around to selling these bonds in the first place, and for that matter how we are planning to do it.
I feel we all should be calling our respective Alderman, and ask them for a full accounting of this project, and what bond is paying for what part of the project! If they do vote to commingle, it will really be hard to get a straight answer from anyone, and this is too much money spent for that!
When you view the TDD which took in the swim club, we have another opportunity which will be interesting, as at least three (could be four) Board members are members of, have close relatives, or hold stock themselves in Rosebrook Realty (swim club,) so they will have to recuse themselves from voting on the issue at all! In fact we may not have a quorum present to hold the vote period when you consider that the TDD is a major part of this issue.
Please call your Alderman, ask him for his/ her take on this subject, and if, like me you feel that commingle is not the right way to do this, tell them so, and then attend the Alderman meeting to watch this play out.
Tom Ford
No.124
posted by Crestwood Independent at 16:12
76 Comments:
Hmmm.Let me see. A TIF for Kohls, a TIF for Watson Plaza, a TDD for Sam's and a TDD for Kohls all are to be combined with a CID. Several separate political entities are to be combined. I wonder what the TDD voters are going to have to say about this. Seems the state might have something to say about the legality of this braindead proposal.
It do indeed! I think the State knows allready but is waiting for the first bond to be sold, which should trigger the investigation!
Is this fact or fiction? Since the BOA have not had public discussion regading this topic, how may I ask was this information obtained?
I have not seen any documentation on the web site?
Comments have been made that budget information can be obtained on the Crestwood web site. Only the approved budget that is - I can't find any documentation of an updated budget with actual income and expenses. Even the recent spread sheets provided at BOA by the CA was not online.
So, is this fact or fiction? And how may I obtain such information/documentation?
Hmmmm. Seems I recall at least 2 Mayors who were lawyers, and several aldermen. Kinda has a putrid smell, now, doesn't it?
To the last blogger - What does that have to do with the present Mayor and BOA? IF it was formulated/discussed in the past why would the idea receive futher discussion if it was not for the benefit of Crestwood? Not sure where you are going with your comment. If you have more details regarding your comment, it would be welcomed.
Boss Hog likes fiction and uses it at every opportunity. It is all part of his plan.
To 5:09 Blogger,
Talk all you want to make light of the matter but this is very serious stuff. It involves your city, your tax monies and whether or not things done in the past were legal or not. And as one blogger said earlier, if this is investigated by the Mo. State Attorney Generals Office and there are inproprieties, you can bet this will mean only more bumpy roads ahead. So please understand the seriousness of and potential consequences of this issue.
Yea, lets not use TIF, TDD and CID. Let's let our retail base decline further so we can vote on another property tax increase next year. In fact, lets do away with all economic development so we can have a property tax rate like Webster Groves!
If you don't like the Sam's TDD Tax or the fact that Kohl's got a TIF DON'T shop there. Schnuck's or Famous will appreciate your business.
The horrid spelling, paranoia, and conspiracy theories found on this blog coupled with the complete lack of understanding for the need to creatively finance development shows the high level of ignorance in this town. If these fools are allowed to continue, Crestwood will be the laughingstock of the county. (And don't drag up the antics of the past administration.) I would rather have a little bit of lovin' going on at City Hall rather than all of the crazed pursuit of conspiracies regarding TIF and TDD. If you don't like these development tools, please stop shopping at Sams and Kohls. Do not drive on Sappington or Watson. Do not take part in anything that has benefitted from this funding.
To the previous blogger, you would "rather have a little bit of lovin' going on at City Hall rather than all of the crazed pursuit of conspiracies regarding TIF and TDD." I'm not sure what happened could be called "a little bit of lovin' "
Question: The combination of all of these tax programs - is this for the Kohl's development or is this for all developments (Sam's Club, Grewe, etc.) within Crestwood?
Folks, please refer to the City of Crestwood BOA Min. for 10/25/05. look under the 3939 posts, and you will see what all this means. First, in the TDD/CID we see no mention of anything but a "City parking lot" (no swim club.) Second on the Armstrong Teasdale web site we see the mention of " a City swim club".
When questioned about this (by a citizen of Crestwood,) an ATTY. agreed to amend the wording on their site, to " swim club", but declined to put the words "A private" befor it.
Now, if you get into this, expect to be baffled by leagle terms, ETC! So if I can be of assistance in leading any of you through this, please call me from 0700 to 2100 at 341-2307, and I will endevor to explain it to you.
The Kohl's deal is seperate from the Sam's club, or any other promotion in the past. The TIF,CID,TDD is in effect, the funds transfered, and now they wish to sell the bonds, well, that's going to be the problem, how do we do that when the MODOT plat plan shows City Hall, the fire station, and police dept. as part of the TDD, and those buildings mortaged to the bank for the loan we just took out?
Like you I am waiting for answers, and I hope they are forth-coming.
Any and all paperwork you wish to view is available from Kim Kottle at City Hall. You will need to print a "Freedom of information act" (available on the City web site, see link on this blog,) fill it out, and thake it to Kim. She is very forthcoming with the information, and will help you.
Tom Ford
uummm, Tom, are you a lawyer?
Tom, could you please endevor to explain this to us? Or should we just call Jim Murphy? Thanks...let us know.
Sheesh! Read the above, I told you to call me and I would try to explain it (remember!)
UMMM, no, thank God!
Tom Ford
And when do the black helicopters come?
Someone should call Art Bell right away!
Mr. Ford - I guess I need to ask the questions again since you have not responded:
Is this fact or fiction? Since the BOA have not had public discussion regading this topic, how may I ask was this information obtained?
I have not seen any documentation on the web site?
So, is this fact or fiction? And how may I obtain such information/documentation?
Thanks.
I fail to see how this can even be on the agenda, considering we now have such an esteemed, above-reproach, perfect in every respect City Administrator - hand picked by Hizzoner.
Maybe you missed the documentation in the BOA 10/25/05 stating "this arrangement will have THF provide a Letter of Credit, which can be drawn upon if the revenue from the CID and TDD which are not caputred by the TIF are short in order to pay the debt issued on the CID and TDD portion of the project...the Letter of Credit in essence guarantees the bondholders that they will receive payments on their investments even if the revenues from the project aren't sufficient to pay those bonds .."
Also - regarding the Swim Club - all BOA minutes refer to THF Realty acquiring the property.
To the blogger who needed to ask the questions again. Please, call me for a time to meet with me this week, and I will be glad to show you all the supporting paperwork reference your questions.
The documentation is in two binders, and is 6" thick, so be prepaired to spend some time on this. The information was obtained by a very good researcher, through public records, the very same records available to anyone who wishes to see them.
As I have said before, please call me at 314-341-2307, and we will discuss this further.
Tom Ford
"Also - regarding the Swim Club - all BOA minutes refer to THF Realty acquiring the property." It would appear that Armstrong Teasdale does not agree with you at all, the following is from their web site, dated 4/17/06, and I quote.
"Representing the City of Crestwood, Missouri, the group is using a TIF, a TDD and a CID to finance improvements related to the Crestwood Point development at Watson Road and Sappington Road. The TDD and CID aided in the acquisition of land to expand and improve the city's existing government center parking lot and relocate the city's swim club."
Now these are the people who will sell the bonds, no? So, please tell me who is right, and tell all of us what's going on here!
Tom Ford
To the April 19, 10:18 A.M. blogger. Well, it was only a matter of time until you found a way to bring up the new City Administrator in an uncivil light, the one you say was chosen by hizzoner. Of course you didn't discredit him, you just did your usual "jerk" thing. Sorta like you have done with Mr. Murphy, Martha Duchild, Faye Clark, Jacque Stock/hausen, Tom Ford, Darryl Wallach, CCFFR, and Richard Breeding. All whose contributions to the city far exceed yours. None of whom deserve your ridiculous critique. Please don't look in the mirror tonight, the sonic boom will crack the concrete at the Private Crestwood Swim Club.
poster at 7:51, share with us what Breeding has done in his 8 years of being an alderman to merit your praise.
In one year when Brasfield was mayor, Breeding missed most all meetings during a 6 month period as he had taken an out of town job. Last year he secured a 3 month advance on his pay while voting to reduce number of city workers right before Christmas.
Thank God for term limits!
Tom, the thought of your 6" dossier both intrigues and frightens me. All of this information obtained by your researcher,is both captivating and terrifying at the same time. I feel sorry for those pool members when I think about your bincder, filled with hours and hours of research. I also imagine that the attorneys at Armstrong Teasdale are quite frightened by the requests to change the contents of their website. The plot thickens indeed......
Latest up date! It would appear that the St. Louis County Clerk Of Court's who signed for the TDD pettition may have not in fact have worked for the County at the time of his signature!
If in fact that bears out to be true, well it seems that the entire petition may have to be re-done, re-submitted, and re -adjucatied!
More to come as we delve into this very interesting development!
Tom Ford
re -adjucatied--what does this word mean? Do you know?
hmmmm - figgggggggger it out, or try Webster's. You are very entertaining.
What do you think our former C/A thinks about all the information that is getting out? Everything being reports seem to be actual facts. Do you think this is a surprise to him? Did you hear that HE had been involved with Armstrong Teasdale even before moving to Crestwood and that HE suggested our present assistant C/A and our economic development person work for Crestwood. Whose signatures are on the TIF, CID, & TDD? So many questions. Don't all our aldermen know the answers? Are they going to come forward with answers to stop all of this 'paranoia'? It would seem the most logical thing to do. Those who have been in on all these happening for years should tell the citizens what the truth is and then all of these questions and comments would end. What do the rest of you think?
Would the Securities and Exchange perform an audit of these bonds at the State and Federal Level?
Can our public officials help out a private entity reduce their capital gain taxes but using a 353 to blight their property?
Would the Securities and Exchange perform an audit of these bonds at the State and Federal Level?
Can our public officials help out a private entity reduce their capital gain taxes but using a 353 to blight their property?
Where does this tax free money actually come from to pay off these TIF's, TDD's, and CID's?
Does the Federal Government loan this money to the State to allow for a tax-free status of these bonds?
Oh my, this means that the Federal Government can audit these bonds!
Is this our Federal Highway Transportation dollars?
Is Watson and Sappington Road a Federal Road or State Road or both?
Are any of the Armstrong Teasdale lawyers a member of the Crestwood Swim Club or a Rosebrook Real Estate stockholder?
Can someone email them the St. Louis County Real Estate website to the Armstrong Teasdale law firm?
Here is the website.
http://revenue.stlouisco.com/IAS/
They may not know how to use the web for searching real estate titles for the Crestwood Swim Club and for the Rosebrook Real Estate Company!
It is confusing since there are multiple addresses for these corporations!
For example: 904 Rayburn
1475 Sappington
1321 Raycrest
P O Box 260083
Oh! they may need help in using the web on looking up these Missouri corporations.
Please email them this website so they can actually see these multiple addresses for these two corporations!
https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/csearch.asp
By the way, which corporation own which corporation!
Does the Crestwood Swim Club lease the land from the Rosebrook Real Estate property?
Who pays the taxes for the membership fees, concession sales, and party rentals?
call Tom Ford--he should have all of the answers in his double secret dossier. call after 0700 hours
FYI Nothing in the books Tom Ford has referred to are "secrets". There are copies of our government's past meetings, court hearings, all things proved and provable. Who out there is so confused they thing anyone would pass around a book filled with "secrets"..does Tom Ford even belong to the 'private swim club'? I believe the list of the members are what is being kept secret. Why would anything as healthy and normal as a swimming club have to keep their list of members secret? Have you seen this list? Lots of luck!
where is the membership list of the ccfr? who are their members?
Per a hand out from Jim Murphy in June 2005, the charter members of the Citizens for Fiscal Responsiblity are:
Don & Faye Clark
Darryl Wallach
Carol Casey
Bob Deutschmann
Tom Ford
Pam Grant
Jackie Stock
Martha Duchild
Jim Murphy Sr.
Jim Murphy Jr.
Frank Spinner
John Foote
Steve Nieder
Clifford
Dear Clifford, what a bright boy you are. So now you're telling ME-the night I had these people over as guests for iced tea and home made brownies, we automatically became Charter members of a group which was not even registered. Hope you never had a bar-b-que in your backyard! You either need to (1) get better information, or (2)give it up altogether. Faye
Would Regina Massy be willing to present a list of the membership of the swim club? We know there must be one (otherwise why the need for a 4"X6" family photo for ID), and as such she would be the logical one to have it.
How about it Ms Massy, send it to Tom Ford, and he will put it on the blog!
Hi Tom,
"Clifford's" comment on post 124:
My name was included in the Crestwood Citizens for Fiscal Responsibility
charter member list in error. While I supported their efforts to defease
the COP's for the proposed police building, I never joined the group as a
member. To set the public record straight, I requested from the local
papers that listed me as a member of the CCFR to print corrections, which
they did.
Martha Duchild
To Faye and Martha
Sorry, didn't realize the members list of the CCFFR that Jim Murphy handed out was not for publication. He wrote at the bottom of the list that he was hopefull that more would join. I didn't realize that you didn't know about Jim's handout with your name on it.
I am not trying to tell you anything, I was just quoting Jim. Did I make the mistake of thinking all on the list were ok with their name on it or did Jim make a mistake in handing out the list without those listed giving their ok to do so?
In either case,I meant no harm.
Clifford
why are they all so afraid to have their name on the lil' ol' list? What's wrong? What are you so Sceeeered of?
Good point, why would the Crestwood swim club members be so afraid to have their name on a "little old list"?
How about it? Anonymous asked you for the list Ms. Massy, may I have it please? You have the so called CCFFR list printed on the blog, so why not the Swim Club? In the imortal words of the previous blogger, "whats wrong?, what are you so sceeeered of"?
Tom Ford
Tom Ford
It is not a "so called list of the CCFFR" it is the list that one the founders Jim Murphy gave out to the public in June of 2005.
What is going on here with the CCFFR? Are they going out of business? If so why? Tom you yourself invited people on your blog to come to the next meeting just within the last week. I dont understand what has happened, has it out lived its usefulness?
Clifford
No my friend it's usefullness is just started, however there is no CCFFR left! I do want you all to attend the next meeting that we have, as I feel we all have a lot to discuss, don't you? However the CCFFR is not now an entinty, as the name has been registered without any of the prior group named, thus, no CCFFR!
Please call Regina, or Gary and give us the list of the Swim club! Crestwood awaits your forth coming answer!
Tom Ford
Why doesn't the Mason's list their members on their web site?
Yes, please tell us all the members of the Masonic Lodge....Do you think your fellow members would mind you submitting their names?
To "Clifford:"
Sometimes you can take things at face value, and the situation with the CCFR charter member list most assuredly falls into this category. Of course the list was for publication and of course Mr. Murphy would want people to join the group. What better way to help achieve the group's goals than to attract as many people as possible? No, you did not make a mistake; everyone on the list but me signed on as members. The inclusion of my name on the list was a simple error - nothing more, nothing less.
Martha Duchild
Ms. Duchild, I guess the original members of the CCFR are deceitful by putting your name on the list? Shows great creditability. What are they going to call the "club" now anyway? Maybe we could have a naming contest?
Mr. Ford, why don't you contact Armstrong Teasdale regarding their web site? People are human and make mistakes. In all other documentation the Crestwood Swim Club is referenced as the Swim Club or Crestwood Swim Club.
Also, I guess you are implying that Armstrong Teasdale did something illegal by allowing Kohls to purchase the Swim Club Parking Lot for $800,000.
There would not be a problem with City Hall, the fire station, and police department as part of the TDD, if Prop 1 had passed. But there are those that think you can "pay as you go". With the 2004 audit showing a NEGATIVE 1,574,352 fund balance, and subsequent years needing more, I think "pay as you go" won't cut it.
The mayor's optimism regarding being able to "shop around" for lower interest rate loans is pretty unrealistic.
Mr. Ford, THF will provide a letter of credit, which can be drawn upon if the revenue from the CID and TDD which are not captured by the TIF are short in order to pay the debt issued on the CID and TDD portion of the project. The letter of credit guarantees the bondholders that they will receive payments on their investments even if the revenues from the project aren't suffcient to pay those bonds. What is your problem?
Also, at the BOA meeting, it was clarified that the reason to combine these was instead of having 3 separate "costs" there would only be one, and that the CID and TDD by themselves are not marketable and there is no ability to fund the City Hall parking lot improvement. I guess you were not at the meeting.
It is probably easier to obtain a complete list of the Crestwood Swim Club membership than to get one of the CCFR membership. When and where can the public get a complete membership list of the CCFR??? Huh?
I read the list of Fiscal people somewhere on this bloog. Didn't you see it? As I understand it, one of our alderman went out to the election board to check the validity of the group and was told the committee expires on May 4th. You too can go to the election board and see for yourself and then while you are out there you can check on the candidates to see how much they spent on the election. When you get all these facts, you will have the correct comeback when people tell you things that just 'ain't so'. good luck
Great item in the call about MSD sewer's expertise in fixing problems. Did they do a correct job when moving the swim club? Lots of water seems to get getting out of there going places it shouldn't be. If the lines were put into place right, why would that be happening? Who was the man in charge of this project. Can't he answer these questions. Having a pool of any size up higher than the homes around it looks scary to me. I wouldn't want to be in either one of them.
How old are those water towers sitting up higher than all those surrounding homes on the hill?...that seems even scarier to me. Might do Crestwood a favor by washing away the blighted home on Rosaire with the orange cones and the the 2 x 4 hand railings.
Does anyone know how much money it cost for the land the WhiteCliff pool? I can understand people loving their private swim pool but when they had a chance to build a new one, wouldn't you think they would have bought some nice treed area instead being up on a hill? Is that pool secure up there, has it be heavily reinforced on the north side, we do live near the faultline you know. I know people who won't let their kids go into the pool because they feel it is not safe.
yes, whitecliff sits at the top of a hill
Wait, I am confused. Whitecliff sits at the top of a hill, but it is also at the bottom of a hill. Crestwood swim club is at the top of a hill, but also at the bottom of a hill. It all depends on where you are, doesn't it.
Let me ask a different question. If one of whitecliff's walls were to break (because of poor construction) would it wipe out any homes? The house someone said would benefit crestwood if it were wiped out was ruined because of the water coming out of the new private pool. People whose homes are at the base of that pool have water in their yards, basements and it has done much to ruin the value of their homes. This type of thing doesn't seem to matter to the pool people, their entertainment is much more important than saving an individuals home. What if your home sat where the orange coned home sits? I always thought the area where the new pool is now is zoned residential. It seems there is no rule unbreakable if certain people in crestwood want it broken.
First, the old pool property was also zoned residential.
Second, any documentation regarding "People whose homes are at the base of that pool have water in their yards, basements and it has done much to ruin the value of their homes."?
Yes, I would love to see that documentation. Seems that several of the homes have been sold over the past couple of years with no problem. In fact, the home directly next door to "orange cones and 2 x4's" just sold in the past year. Imagine that.
The owner of the dandelion farm said that her home was ruined from the water coming off of the parking lot when the pool was in the previous location. Check the minutes of the BOA meetings back in about 2000--you obviously have the time on your hands to do this.
Someone should have Elliott Davis investigate the "man in charge of the MSD project." He's probably involved in the conspiracy along with Jimmy Hoffa, David Duke and Hillary Clinton!
Maybe Jimmy Hoffa is buried in the concrete deck of the pool!
Armstrong Teasdale was contacted, twice before the agreed to change their web site. And no, Armstrong Teasdale did nothing wrong what so ever! They no doubt acted on information given to them by?
Keep your eye on the doughnut, and not the hole. Forget the bond lawyers, look into who gave them the information in thr first place.
Armstrong Teasdale would never jeprodise their reputation or their practice for any reason, so it goes to the fact that they thought it was a "City" pool.
Now, who led them to believe that?
Tom Ford
To the 2:35PM blogger, Jimmy Hoffa is not buried in the concrete deck of the pool. In fact he is alive and well and will be joining the swim club with Elvis this summer.
Aren't they having a reunion with Marilyn Monroe and James Dean too? Perhaps Johnny Cash and June Carter-Cash might play a few tunes as well. Can't wait for the next episode of "The Return of the Living Dead at Crestwood's Swim Club".
Have a great evening and enjoy the nice weather. It is beautiful.
Okay then I believe that the financial problems with the City of Crestwood was because BOA no doubt acted on information given to them? And I am talking about prior to 2003. Why not dig into that?
Referring to the CCFFR going out of business. Better put: Mission Accomplished!
Yup, they got Nieder and Roy elected, so yes, their mission was accomplished, but now what?
Will Crestwood survive their leadership, can they ever "bring back Crestwood", will the Mall return as a solid source of tax dollars, will there ever again be a meeting of the Ways and Means held on a Saturday so most working people can attend, will there be two aldermen meetings in a row without a closed door excutive session?
Speaking of closed doors, will this mayor ever by honest with us about what is really going on with the Mall and what he knows it is going to do?
Is the CCfFR admiting that since they are closing up shop after the election, that was the only reason for their existence to start with?
Hit and run tactics is what the CCfFR was good for and now they are trying to divert attention from the failures of their Mayor by supporting attacks on a private swim club and the Catholic Church and one of its schools on this blog run by one of the CCfFr members.
They boast about having stopped the rebuild of city hall, but forget to note that the voters approved the rebuild, and that their stoping of the rebuild has put the city budget for 2007 $850,000 in the hole before it starts. Like it was said earlier, mission accomplished, but now what?
RE: CCFFR GOING OUT OF BUSINESS
From what I have found about the CCFFR
from reading this blog's pages, from stories I have read in the newspapers and from face to face conversations with some of its members, if it is really going out of business, then I say "thank God and good riddance"!
Clifford
Let's focus on something positive. Heard some news about the mall...anyone else? Sounds very promising. Stay tuned...
Sure is a beautiful night tonight...enjoy!!
What did you here about the Mall?
That it has some stores, a few restaurants and kiosks.
Clifford,
Which CCFR member(s) did you meet with face to face?
Clifford, the best is yet to come!
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