Crestwood Alderman work session.
Having just returned from the work session a City Hall reference the sale of the bonds for the TIF,CID,TDD, I have little to report to you!
The meeting lasted 45 minutes, and was mostly taken up by two gentlemen, one from Armstrong Teasdale, and the other from Steifel Nicholas. Questions were asked by very few Alderman (three to be exact, Kelleher, Miguel, and Roby.)
The gist of the questions were ranging from Alderman Kelleher asking if anything in the package would be illegal or in-appropriate (he was assured there was nothing of that sort,) to Alderman Miguel asking if the City would be liable if any part of this defaulted (again, they said no.) In another question, Alderman Miguel asked if the City might do this another way other than the bonds. As I understood the gentleman who responded, he stated that the City had all ready committed to the project when it accepted the three districts, so it looks to be a done deal.
This meeting was an information only type, and the real work on this will no doubt start at the next two Aldermanic meetings where an ordinance will have to be created to sell the bonds, and a second reading will then take place at the following meeting.
Aside from the meeting, I am wondering why anyone would buy a bond that had no back up support? From what I gathered tonight if I bought the bonds, and Kohl's sold out or went out of business, and the City was not required to back up the bonds, what good would the bonds be? I think there is much more we need to learn about this before I am going to be happy! I don't know if the bond holders would be able to place a lien on my property to insure the payment or not, but where is the guarantee?
I suppose that the underwriters (read insurance company's,) would take the initial hit, but would they then look to the City, and the citizens to recover their losses?
These are just some of the questions that must be addressed as far as I am concerned!
Tom Ford
No.148
The meeting lasted 45 minutes, and was mostly taken up by two gentlemen, one from Armstrong Teasdale, and the other from Steifel Nicholas. Questions were asked by very few Alderman (three to be exact, Kelleher, Miguel, and Roby.)
The gist of the questions were ranging from Alderman Kelleher asking if anything in the package would be illegal or in-appropriate (he was assured there was nothing of that sort,) to Alderman Miguel asking if the City would be liable if any part of this defaulted (again, they said no.) In another question, Alderman Miguel asked if the City might do this another way other than the bonds. As I understood the gentleman who responded, he stated that the City had all ready committed to the project when it accepted the three districts, so it looks to be a done deal.
This meeting was an information only type, and the real work on this will no doubt start at the next two Aldermanic meetings where an ordinance will have to be created to sell the bonds, and a second reading will then take place at the following meeting.
Aside from the meeting, I am wondering why anyone would buy a bond that had no back up support? From what I gathered tonight if I bought the bonds, and Kohl's sold out or went out of business, and the City was not required to back up the bonds, what good would the bonds be? I think there is much more we need to learn about this before I am going to be happy! I don't know if the bond holders would be able to place a lien on my property to insure the payment or not, but where is the guarantee?
I suppose that the underwriters (read insurance company's,) would take the initial hit, but would they then look to the City, and the citizens to recover their losses?
These are just some of the questions that must be addressed as far as I am concerned!
Tom Ford
No.148
posted by Crestwood Independent at 19:39
84 Comments:
Tom, could you please provide a summary and analysis of exactly how the process of issuing and insuring bonds works?
No, I can't. My expertise is in the HVAC field. I will ask a couple of friends though, and report back to you.
Tom Ford
Was anyone there with the 6 inch thick binder?
What did the Mayor say?
WHERE WAS THE BINDER? I DEMAND TO KNOW WHERE WAS THE BINDER? I AM CERTAIN THAT THIS COULD HAVE BEEN A HELPFUL RESOURCE DURING THE WORK SESSION. PERHAPS THE EXPERTS COULD HAVE USED THIS IN THEIR PRESENTATION.WHERE IS THE BINDER?
It's simple. A Bond Underwrter markets the bonds to financial entitities who are interested in buying them. Since Kohl's has been open for going on three years, they buy the bonds based on the fact that the project is generating revenue to retire them. Since the bonds are issued (Not backed by.) political subdivisions (City, TDD, & CID) they are tax exempt.
Thank you for that simple, concise and direct answer. Sounds like the sale of the bonds should be a no-brainer.
Oh reeeeeeaaaaaally?
Which alderman took up the most time asking questions?
4 or 5 aldermen should RECUSE themselves from voting because of ties to the Crestwood Swim Club. There are too many questions about this deal. The Mayor and the board of aldermen should not waste their time with this. Maybe if nobody else can stop this deal, at least Alderman Miquel will be able to. Let's hope so.
Did Myers bring this to the board? Why? Is he in cahoots with the swim club?
If the City doesnt do the Bonds and the County does, is there a cost to the City and if so, how much?
Tom--do you want to be right or do you want Crestwood to do well? It sure seems like you and all of your friends WANT something to be wrong with this bond process. It is really sad--it is like you are SO HOPING there there is a problem with it rather than letting it proceed. Why do you want this to be improper. Do you not have an interesting enough life? Don't you think that the law firms and the financial firms are a little more sophisticated about these deals than you and all of your binder totin' buddies?
Sophisticated isn't the same as honest. Have you heard the one about "ENRON"? Three aldermen spoke last night, all three with very good questions. I would assume that the others knew all the answers and were satisfied with that because they asked nothing. We want all the city tax money to be for the city (only). No tax money for private enterprise.
for the 8:36pm question. Not many people understand this very complex process. Common folk don't know because they don't run for public office where they would be responsible for knowing. Say for example people in our government truly don't know these answers. Then what keeps them from being fooled by the elite sophiscoted people who work with bonds for their living. Many high ranking companys has failed because their top employees gave false information, not to say we can't trust these folks, but don't smart people always get second opinions?
Like what private enterprise are you talking about?
So called "experts" cried that Crestwood would go down the tubes if it defeased the bonds on the 14 million dollar police palace. So far, that has not happened. Furthermore, Crestwood put too much trust in an "expert" auditing firm.
The mayor and board members have to be accountable. If that means double-checking and intense research, so be it. If an alderman prefers to be a rubber stamp, perhaps he or she should join a social club on Tuesday nights and not waste taxpayer's time and money.
Next the aldermen will be questioning the design of street plans to save taxpayer money. Can't wait for the second guessing and in depth checking by the Tuesday night amateur engineers led by Miquel. Maybe they will uncover something after years of questioning and forever seeking more information.
Is it true than an alderman brought his two children to the meeting and allowed them free run of the place? Wasn't that disruptive for the audience?
It was only disruptive to the people who forgot what it was like to have young children or who never had children at all.
Tom,
The following comment is taken from the minutes of the 10/25/05 board of aldermen meeting minutes: "To ensure there is an adequate revenue stream to support the proposed financing, THF guarantees debt services on the bonds with a Letter of Credit." It was made in reference to the amended intergovernmental cooperation agreement which combines the TIF, TDD, and CID. The ordinance number is 3939.
I believe this answers the question you posed regarding who backs the bonds.
Martha Duchild
What did the attorney general say? Surely he attended this excellent opportunity to catch a crime in progress, especially when his close friends from the CCFR contacted him. someone should investigate whether city administrator meyers knew about this opportunity all along, and accepted the job in Crestwood just so he could join the swim club and make millions on his stock. I wish an actuary would calculate the odds of 3 concurrent city administrators all being in cahoots on this thing. How else to explain that it was brought to the work session last night. Why didn't the mayor just put a stop to the whole thing? He's the only honest, ethical man in the entire state if you ask me. After all, according to our charter, the mayor is in charge of the city, certainly he trumps any decision by the board of aldermen.
Actually, an actuary was asked to acclimate approximate acquisitions!
Where did the money come from to put on a new roof and a new air conditioner on the Crestwood City Hall building?
Did the Kohl's TIF, TDD, and CID pay for the new roof and new air conditioner?
Is this legal?
Is it right to collect sales tax from Kohl's to put on a new roof and a new air conditioner for the city of Crestwood?
Where is the loyalty of Armstrong Teasdale when they are collecting either 1% or 2% of the TIF, TDD, and CID?
Will Armstrong Teasdale collect $300,000 from the Kohl's project?
Will Armstrong Teasdale collect $44,000 for selling the bonds?
How much money will Armstrong Teasdale actually collect on the Kohl's project?
Don't tell me where their interest is with Crestwood!
Why can't the city sell these bonds and save the $300,000?
Can someone clarify who will be responsible for the bonds if Kohl's goes bankrupt?
What if the Kohl's building sat idle for years due to a bankruptcy?
Does these bonds fall on the "citizens" of Crestwood?
Our Board of Alderman will increase the "citizens" of Crestwood Real Estate Taxes to pay off these bonds?
Has anyone committed fraud?
Would this be fraud if you are on the Board of Alderman or on the Planning and Zoning and vote to get money or be a recipient of money?
Where will the liability lie with the city of Crestwood or with the board of Alderman?
All of the Board of Alderman depend on the city to carry insurance for fraud.
You can't put a "city" in jail like you can't put a company in jail but you can put it's officers in jail!
Was Sunshine Law enforced before the Crestwood Alderman work session?
Frank Myers mentioned that the Board of Alderman had a private meeting with these lawyers before the worksession.
Who was advicing the city of violating the Sunshine Law?
Are these lawyers concerned about the City of Crestwood or collecting their percentage of the Kohl's project?
Everyone has the attitude that I am not paying for these bonds!
It is those "silly citizens" that go there and buy not knowing how their 1% sales tax dollars actually being spent in Crestwood.
You all sound like a bunch of communists...you think NO one should profit off of anything.
To the 2:34 blogger,
Money for the roof and a/c did not come from there. It came from the police building bonds.
To the 8:58 blogger who asks if I want to be right, or do I want the City to be right? Well, I would rather see the City be right, which is why I am asking all these questions. You see when all this was concieved the cost was going to be about 2 + Million and that's ok.
Now the cost is about 5 + million, what with cost overruns and the like I can see that happening.
But now we come to the fly in the ointment. The origional TIF commission recommended the 2 + million, and the BOA created an ordinance (3549) to that effect.
Now three years later they are asked to vote on bond sales totaling 5 + million. If this is the case then the origional TIF commission should be re-conviend for a recommendation to up the cost to 5 + million, the BOA must vote on a new ordinance to sell 5 + million worth of bonds, and all this has to be done in accordance with the "sunshine law".
Now this would not be needed if the swim club and the City parking lot were removed from the bond sales as it would come back to the origional figures, but unless that happens (which it wont,)I would think Crestwood may be in violation of it's own ordinance, and no Alderman should vote for it.
Is it a problem? Well I'm not sure, but I think I would darn sure investigate this before I put my vote on the line. Let's ask our Aldermen, and the Mayor for clairification!
Pray tell, what do you think?
Tom Ford
What police building bonds?
Did the TIF Commission approve the TDD and CID? The 5+ million in bonds are for the TIF, CID and TDD combined. They could easily be handled separately. What's the problem? But I am sure Miquel will be on top of this months or years from now.
To all those bloggers who are poking fun at people asking questions and making sure they understand what is happening in their city government, get over it.
We are all asking legitimate questions about how our (and your) tax dollars are spent. Government procedures and financing is very complicated. You choose to ignore the details and that's fine, we choose to learn and understand the process because it's our money.
In my eyes, it's the ignorant vs. the informed.
I do expect that a major problem will come to light, and gusee what, I do know what I am talking about, so let's sit back and watch.
Tom Ford
4:37 PM, May 19, 2006
Apparently Tom has some sort of inside information that he chooses not to share with his alderman, the mayor, or the city administrator. If he is in possession of some sort of important information, why is he withholding this information from his fellow Crestwoodians? Is it because he wished harm or vengeance on some specific faction within Crestwood. Why would he have not shared this information. Why did he not encourage his alderman to ask questions about this matter when there were experts on hand to answer questions? SMELLS VERY STINKY TO ME.
Yes, I agree. It IS the ignorant versus the informed.
Tom, is this true, do you really possess some sort of juicy tidbit that you are not sharing with us? What is your motivation for not sharing this information?
All residents should simply go to Myers and read the 6-inch binder. Then they will not be so ignorant.
Ah yes, the holy 6 inch thick DeCathy Code binder that leads us to the REAL holy grail of the swim clubs dirty deads and missed used TAXPAYERS MONEY by Gosh!!!!
It was Greer's forefathers who planned this 1800 years ago when they first saw the area now called Crestwood. They knew because they were GASP, Free Masons! and had access to all the knowledge of the ancients ones.
If only we had listened to those who have gone to City Hall and seen and read and understood the DeCathy Code, we would not be in this darkness of evil. And it's all Greer's fault and his army of Fagenittes. Darn them to heck all of them.
Become one of "Roy's Boys" before he leaves for LasVegas and its too late, or join today the CCFFRRRR.
Will the archbishop let us read the DeKathy code?
Tom Ford has shared the information with some of the Aldermen, aqnd in fact on this blog. The information has to do with the funds voted on by the TIF commission, and where we are now. Look it up.
Harm or vengence? To whom, or to what? I just want to see things done right, period! If you there, you would know that only 45 min. were allowed for the session, and that was mostly taken by the rep's. from outside. There were no questions allowed from the citizens, and darn few were asked by the Alderman!
This town has, for too long been under the influence of special interest group's (pick your own group,) but that's going to change! The citizens of Crestwood now have a voice to ask the tough questions, and demand responses!
Put what you will on this blog, but keep it nice, or "ka-boom", your gone!
Tom Ford
To the 6:29 blogger! Don't try this at home, "I am a professional". (a bit of levity.)
HEH, HEH, HEH!
Tom Ford
No questions allowed from the Citizens??
You mean the Mayor wouldnt allow you to speak and ask questions?
Who is running this place, I thought Roy said as long as he was mayor there would be citizen input...
Rrrright!
To all you anti-Ford, anti-Robinson crowd, please send Tom Ford $150 to cover the cost of this public forum. Obviously you don't care how you (or others) spend your money.
The code! Do you live by it, does it live by you? These questions must be answered!
Is the Creve Coeur pool code the same as the Crestwood pool code? Do we know?
Your permit was from Creve Coeur, so you well may be able to drop the Crestwood $50.00 (for parties) charge you be-moan on your web site, But wait, whose dumpster will you use then, and who will pay for it?
Mr. Jerry Miguel presided last night as the Mayor was, and is Ill, and a fine job he did of it!
When the Mayor recovers, you can then ask to be heard!
Tom Ford
$150 to use this Public Forum, no way Jose? Take up a collection for the blog at St. E's and the Swim Club, they, according to some posters have all the money and power in Crestwood.
Oh, that's right, St.E's and the Swim Club are not favored by most who support the "facts" found on this blog.
DUHHHHH TOM, the time was taken up by reps from the outside firms to explain things to the alderman.
You fox, you, not much get's buy you now does it!
That's exactly what I said!
Tom Ford
the whole point of the session was for the outside experts to address the board of alderman...not to waste time with questions from the keepers of the DeCathi Code Binders.
I love it when people call these so-called consultants outside "experts". Between these so called experts and the Fagan Remnants, Crestwood almost went bankrupt.
To the previous blogger 5-19 6:56PM - "Who is running this place, I thought Roy said as long as he was mayor there would be citizen input...
Rrrright! " Are you implying when Robertson and Fagan were mayor, there was citizen input? I cannot recall a time when Robertson or Fagan listened to citizens except when it came to election time. And then their ears became deaf again.
Please remember, some of these 'experts' will earn large fees for bond underwriting. For them, the sooner the commission earned, the better. I'm not saying the fees aren't justified, just that they want to 'close the deal' sooner rather than later.
:)
Under Mayors Robertson and Fagan the public was allowed to speak before the meeting really started as they do now. But unlike now there was also a time set aside at the end of the meeting for the public to speak on any issue. Breeding also followed this practice.
That is twice as many times than current Mayor allows for speaking from the floor, so the statement that Robertson and Fagan didnt listen to the citizens is false.
"so the statement that Robertson and Fagan didnt listen to the citizens is false. " They - Fagan and Robertson - may have allowed them to speak, but I can tell you, they did not listen to them. They regarded themselves as superior, and part of their job was to tolerate the little people.
Robertson promised a lot of communication to his constituents and did not deliver.
There is a distinct difference in allowing someone to speak, and listening to that person. I'm not saying Robinson is a supreme listener (he's cut some people short), but Robertson and Fagan were not.
Are you asking why Tom Ford didn't encourage HIS aldermen to ask the questions? How can they even be his aldermen if they don't know which questions to ask? Do you think the average citizen is more interested in saving the city from more problems than the men they elected to be in office doing this for them. Tell me again, what did you vote your alderman in to do?
to 9:17 you're 100% correct, the outsiders were there to answer the alderman's questions. Did your alderman have any questions? The extreme left had NO questions. If your alderman sits to the left, ask him to questions you're asking Ford. It's very obvious that you think Ford is a dummy and even more obvious you voted for your alderman. He's the one to ask the questions of and he doesn't need the DiCathy Codebook, he was there at the boa minutes and signing of all the ordinances which are much of what is contained in this 6" binder. So ask your alderman people, they were your choice of doing the right and intelligent thing for your city. Tell them what you think. You paid for it! Correction! YOU WILL PAY FOR IT.
I believe Mr. Ford has stated Mr. Myers does have a copy of the documentation. Are you saying that he has not reviewed it? That was some time ago and I am sure by now he would have addressed any problems. I ASSume that Alderman Miguel has a copy of the documentation or at least has received calls from concerned citizens regarding this matter. Why wasn't any of this information addressed?
Again, hard to find the true facts here on this site. Smoke but no fire.
No offense but I tend to believe the representatives from Armstrong Teasdale and Steifel Nicholas.
These people deal with this type of business daily.
I think that citizens trying to piece together puzzle pieces (documentation/binder) may not be qualified to interpret such information. Come on, Mr. Ford is in the HVAC field and I doubt any of the citizens looking into this are as qualified as the presenters.
I know trusting the experts in the past have gotten Crestwood into problems, but it seems to me that a group of citizens don't trust anyone not associated with their group or elected official.
Anxiety changes thinking - for better or for worse. Anxiety is the horse that gallops you toward truth or bucks you off."
~ Jason Merchey
That being the case, what does "high anxiety" do to you? Folks, all I ask is that we slow down, look into the legality of this sale completly (with outside leagal expertise, not cnnected to any part of this,) and move on from there.
It looks as though this is a "fate accompli" anyway, so why not do it right?
Tom Ford
Sorry to read that the Mayor is sick. Will he be well enought to travel to Las Vegas this coming week?
We do wish him a speedy recovery, and God speed on the trip to L/V for the convention!
Let us all pray the three of them acting in concert will return with some good news on the business front.
We do have some "open spaces" at the plaza to fill, but believe me, we are in good shape compaired to most of the towns in Illinois that I visit daily!
Tom Ford
7:11 PM Mayor Robinson did not go to Las Vegas. He went to the hospital instead and was there Monday. Jerry Miquel, the President of the Board of Aldermen, will likely preside over Tuesday's BOA meeting.
Is Mayor Robinson OK?
compaired to what?
You got me! Good one!
Much to your chagrin, yes he is OK!
All right, that is it! I have had enough! Since the start of this blog I have sat by and watched...somewhat in amusement I must say. I have never been a supporter of either party ( Fagan or Robinson). I will admit that I voted for Roy. I never met him and still have not to this day. I've never met Mr. Fagan either. I have always taken this sight with a grain of salt though. I tune in once a week and look to see what people are arguing about and usually laugh. But these last comments have gone to far. The man is sick and I hope for his speedy recovery. Think about what you people are saying! Hopefully in the morning you can look yourself in the mirror.
Yes, how does poster 5:27 know who is chagrined and who isnt?
How are we doing with the bond sales? Anyone attend the meeting? Are all of our aldermen doing their fair share in offering solutions to our problems? In trying to save money, why keep paying aldermen to sit and offer nothing? $350 a month is a lot of money for keeping the chair warm.
9:51AM poster - I have the same questions and agree wholeheartedly. We've heard the arguments, posturing, and fingerpointing. Now we need to hear the solutions.
Blogger at 5:27 pm and 10:46 pm hopefully do not set the standard for compassion these days. The mayor was hospitalized for penumonia and I guess the two bloggers mentioned above are much too busy making light of it to stop playing politics and wish him well. I guess if you have never been sick, it's hard to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. I hope they never have to suffer with sickness like may of us have. Maybe if they do, they will realize that they are no better than those they make light of and when it comes right down to it, we are all vunerable and equal when it comes to being human beings. No man is an island! However, there are a few deserted islands I would like to see the two bloggers shipped off to.
Get a grip.
I do have a grip. And I'm the one that asked if Mayor Robinson was OK. I wish him a speedy recovery and good health.
Well, I was wrong! You seem to be interested in Roy's recovery, so I withdraw my remark cocerning "your chagrin"
Mia Culpa!
Thank you. I'm sorry. I just didn't know what exactly the problem was, and then when I saw he had pneumonia, that is quite serious. It's very treatable, but he is going to really have to take care of himself and follow doctor's instructions.
Blogger at 5:55 am, the alderman who took the most time asking questions at the work session, was probably the one who was most concerned and wanted to make sure he understood everything. He takes his job seriously. He earns his $300 what do the rest of them do? Maybe using this blog that early in the morning is not a good idea for you. Have a cup of coffee first!
Maybe because he was the only one with questions.
For those who believe Alderman Miguel spends to much time on research. He just want's to get it right!
"Patience is a necessary ingredient of genius."
~ Benjamin Disraeli
Tom Ford
To the blogger at 10:13 - Yeah Robertson and Fagan listened to people at the board meetings by giving them time to speak, and then they did nothing! People can get up and speak all they want, if what they say falls on deaf ears, you may as well save your breath.
As I understand it, by the time the meetings were over, Robertson got real thirsty and after a few hours wouldn't remember what anybody said anyhow.
During the public comment at the BOA meetings, I believe that they do listen BUT don't always give feedback regarding those comments. I think that sometimes questions are asked that cannot be answered readily during the meeting. Other time I think there are reasons they don't comment back because maybe the citizens has not stated the entire comment accurately. I myself have been guilty of that but none of the BOA or mayor had taken the time to correct my comments.
To the comment at 3:42 - comment regarding the past mayor is not needed. Ever think that the above post goes for EVERYONE who states their opinions at the BOA meetings. Why do you continue to try and make a division between "them and us"?
Hey guy's, and gal's! It's not us V them in this City, it's us V no City, so think about it, we need to pull toghether for Crestwood!
I still think a "tug of war" would be a good idea at Whitecliff Park to illistrate the need for co-operation on all sides.
What say we set up a weekend to enjoy the park, and each others company?
Tom Ford
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