The Mayors "plan" seems to be the topic of the day here!
In reading the posts I see that our "best and brightest" have adorned every header with witty banter about the Mayors plan. Now that's all well and good, but being the "benevolent" blogmaster that I am, I felt it necessary to give all of you one section to post your rants in. I would never wish to put un-due stress on any of you by forcing you to open each header, and remark on that topic.
I have a suggestion reference the Mayors plan. What say we ask the Mayor, and the BOA to hold a "town hall meeting" for the express purpose of up-dating us on the plan for Crestwood? In a two hour or less session we can all be apprised of what the 2007, and beyond vision for our town is. We can have Ms. Dailey give us her report on what she plans to do for businesses, Mr. Myers can tell us about finances, Mayor Robinson can then outline the "PLAN" we all seem to be so worried about, the BOA can tell us their agenda, and we can give suggestions!
Or, failing that, we can continue to be "cute" behind the ever popular "anonymous" posting, and get absolutely nothing whatsoever accomplished, with the exception of telling or friends "I showed them". So what will it be friends and neighbors? Do we request (I will do that,) the town hall meeting, or do we continue "re-arrange the deck chairs?"
Tom Ford
No.220
I have a suggestion reference the Mayors plan. What say we ask the Mayor, and the BOA to hold a "town hall meeting" for the express purpose of up-dating us on the plan for Crestwood? In a two hour or less session we can all be apprised of what the 2007, and beyond vision for our town is. We can have Ms. Dailey give us her report on what she plans to do for businesses, Mr. Myers can tell us about finances, Mayor Robinson can then outline the "PLAN" we all seem to be so worried about, the BOA can tell us their agenda, and we can give suggestions!
Or, failing that, we can continue to be "cute" behind the ever popular "anonymous" posting, and get absolutely nothing whatsoever accomplished, with the exception of telling or friends "I showed them". So what will it be friends and neighbors? Do we request (I will do that,) the town hall meeting, or do we continue "re-arrange the deck chairs?"
Tom Ford
No.220
posted by Crestwood Independent at 09:12
136 Comments:
Great plan Tom, have a meeting where the Mayor shares with us his plan.
I plan to be there when that happens.
We have a suggestion that makes sense to me, that being we have a moderator to run the meeting after a presentation by the City officials.
May I recommend that we use people from the Call, the Times, and the Journal as moderators? We submit our questions to them, they ask them, and things move smoothly.
I am also told this will take longer than expected, so how about a Saturday Morning from 9:00AM to?
What say you?
Tom Ford
Rumor has it that the mayor's plan includes a city health department.
Let's have Catherine Barrett be the moderator. Then she can share with us why she is so determined to try and have the $850,000 removed from the TDD. Is her plan to have THF either sue the City to recoup the money, or discontinue any future development in this town? (and perhaps even discourage other developers from coming to Crestwood due to all of the amateurs playing politics in 63126. Should BE very interesting to hear her plan.
I don't think she is trying, seems to me she is succeeding. The lawyers seem to backing off the idea, and that's a sure sign there.
As far as THF goes, well as many have said on this blog "that's their problem"! Have you changed your mind's about that? You stated that "neither the City or the swim club were responsible"!
You can't have it both ways, so which one is it?
Tom Ford
We need to see what the Mayor says about the pool deal, it could effect his plan for recover of Crestwood if it got screwed up by those who hate the pool more than they love our city.
Not saying they are right or wrong about their feeling about the pool, but we need to know the full impact it could have on the Mayors plan and he is the only one who can tell us. So lets ask him at the planned meeting of Tom's.
Doesn't anyone know about the "Law of unintended consequences?" Those that have such deep seated hatred against the pool--a pool that has been around for 50 years--are determined to see the pool shut down or somehow return a check that they received three years ago to pay for their new pool. Not gonna happen. So I hope that the people who are determined to reverse this are going to learn just what the law of unintended consequences is about...that is...that the pool never ends up being harmed in any way financially, but their beloved City will suffer for it by paying legal fees OR by having developers stay away from Crestwood due to the fact that there are so many unintellingent, unsophisticated people with zero business acumen who are willing to do anything to shut down a neighborhood pool for reasons known only to them (or cared about by very few people).
Hay go easy lets's wait to the mayor tells us if its ok with his plan before we jump to fast.
12:04 pm 9/16 Blogger
Look let's not get off the subject and start reaming Cathy Barrett. This is about having communication directly with the mayor. If you want to pick at somebody, do it in another comment.
Fellow bloggers. Communication has always been the key to good relationships and good carma.
I am hoping that this meeting can come about soon. It's the only way to go and the only way to keep the citizens focused on the truth rather than lots of fiction we can't believe.
However, that being said, there will always be some people somewhere in the city who are just so full of themselves that they will always cross the line and push the envelope and make remarks that need to be removed from the blog.
I would be most anxious to have an update by those individuals at city hall who can tell us the facts for sure and not a bunch of nonsense or convaluded remarks from those bloggers who seem to have a propensity for the negative.
Sandy Grave
Is this our Crestwood Swimming Club?
http://www.melissadata.com/lookups/np.asp?zip=63126 Organization
CRESTWOOOD SWIMMMING CLUB 07
IRS Subsection
Assets Income
$14,089 $96,155
Which law firm respresented THF for the Kohl's deal?
Who messed up on their paperwork?
Didn't everyone know that Crestwood Swimming Club was a privately owned club and not owned by the City of Crestwood?
Who is pressuring Mayor Robinson and City Administrator, Frank Myers to put all of the city's accounts into one account?
Is the pressure from both THF and Crestwood Swim Club/Rosebrook Real Estate Company?
Why do we "have to give them some money"?
Who needs this money?
What gives them the right to be "untouchable" and above the law?
If Rosebrook Real Estate Company and Crestwood Swim Club dissolve their corporations, they can donate their property to the City of Crestwood for $1.00.
THF Developers can then include the city's property in their TDD.
The additional 1% sales tax paid by Crestwood Kohl's shoppers will pay for Crestwood government public property.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence
An unintended consequence comes about when a mechanism that has been installed in the world with the intention of producing one result is used to produce a different (and often conflicting) result. The notion of "gaming the system" illustrates the idea of an unintended consequence. One "games a system" (for example, the tax code) when one acts in such a way that one gains tax advantages by exploiting a tax rule that was intended for some other purpose.
You created a complex business deal but no one followed the roadmap!
Your Game in Town is over!
The new rules in town is to follow the law.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode36/usc_sec_36_00000108----000-.html
The President is requested to issue each year a proclamation—
(1) designating September 17 through September 23 as Constitution Week; and
(2) inviting the people of the United States to observe Constitution Week, in schools, churches, and other suitable places, with appropriate ceremonies and activities.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-15.html
Citizenship Day and Constitution Week Proclamation
Citizenship Day and Constitution Week, 2001
By the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation
http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution.html
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20050121/1132218_F.shtml
Understanding The Law Of Unintended Consequences: For Every Action...
from the anyone-play-chess? dept
There isn't much new here, but The Register is running a good article going over many examples of the law of unintended consequences as it applies to the technology world -- many of which you've probably read about before. The simplest way to explain it, though, is that no one ever seems to think two (or more!) steps ahead. They simply assume that if they make one move to stop something "bad," there won't be a countermove that could make things worse. It's like a huge chess game where everyone only makes the most obvious move for this turn and doesn't think any further out. If you make it harder to steal parked cars, you increase the incidence of carjacking (which is more dangerous). If you make it harder to send spam through open relays, spammers will team up with hackers and send spam via zombied computers. If you shut down file sharing systems like Napster, people who want music will go further underground with systems that are harder to track and harder to shut down. If you make people think their kids are safer by wearing GPS systems, they won't train their kids to be as street smart about threats. None of this means that people shouldn't try to stop the "bad stuff" at all, but that in coming up with ways to do so, at least some thought should go into what the response will be.
Who designed the playing rules of THF chess game?
well it seems the "Mad Pool Poster" (MPP) has struck again on the pool issue. You know the one who posts questions about the pool ever 2 minutes for about 15 minuets or quotes from the state law.
Why they do that is beyond my understanding as all they do is turn people off that might other wise agree with them.
Oh well as Jim White used to say
"you can't fix stupid"
1:09 PM blogger, do I understand you correctly? Are you telling me that you are willing to "blink" a deal for the swim club that may not be kosher?
It sure sounds like you would be willing to let our City leaders do something that could be considered illegal under the TDD statutes.
I hope, and pray that I mis-read your comments, and that I am wrong!
But is dosen't matter anyway as the lawyers and all other State, and Federal agency's are reviewing the deal now, it's in their hands.
"All it takes for evil to survive is for good men to do nothing"
Tom Ford
Tom, you must focus on the mayors plan to bring Crestwood back, it maybe in his plan to stop the swim club, then again it may not be. We must all wait to get his plan and see, so please for our cities sake dont do anything that could upset the Mayor's plan until we sure were He stands on the Pool issue.
I know you mean well.
I find it amazing that the chess game is actually Crestwood vs Swim Club which sits in spitting distance of my city hall. As a CSC member said, many members don't even live in Crestwood. Does this mean that the Crestwood members are the minority? Does this mean that people who don't even live here are driving on my parking lot and using my dumpster and annoying the neighborhood with lights, noise,lack of privacy and crude remarks? Does this mean this was not even taken into consideration when it moved to its new location? Betcha there are some really nice people who belong to this club, who have no clue as to the history of the club and the shoddy behavior of some of the Crestwood contingent. Nice people would never approve. They would take their beach towels elsewhere if they knew. I know of which I speak.
Which administration approved this venture? (Please advise Mayor and year) With $850,000 they could have gone to a more suitable location.
Does this pool sanction members who are Crestwood resident who have chosen to hate and despise their affiliation to our city? What is wrong with this picture? Where is it written that any of our residents should have to abdicate peace and quite and abide this invasion of their neighborhood?
Are there any minority members of this club? Who can join? Apparently new members have to be approved. Does this mean that in the very shadow of our city hall and all that we as a city aspire to there lies a monster dedicated to defying all principals of bias and reason and consideration?
Where can I obtain a copy of the permits for this pool, the name of the builder and the minutes of meetings which will tell the facts behind the facts? Where can I find out how this pool benefits my city; how much real estate tax they pay, and how much sales tax from the concession stand they pay? Where can I find out if this is a for profit corp? Is liquor allowed at this pool? At our city parks?
What do you want to bet that the questions I have posed go unanswered by certain of the usually loud and noxious members of the invasive club whose presence on this blog site is disgusting and in your face daily.
This swim club is a negative for our city as are some of its local members,not just because of its location but because of the dispicable behavior of these same members. You see, we do know who they are. Another thing we know is that members of this club who have served as city officials have jeopardized their integrity for years to accomodate this club and this is not a well kept secret. Serving in the supposed public interest while being a member of this club easily falls in the realm of conflict.
Frankly, this club is an embarrassment to a city which affords a lovely city pool which was there and accomodating prior to the relocation. The fact they think it is their divine right to be in this ill advised location despite the aggravation to the vicinity and the fact they were well compensated for the older pool, is easily as important as the much touted and requested PLAN of the last few days on this blog. All of which is testimony to the fact that while most of their members are respectable people, there is a tacky element, which most would find very disturbing, swimming in the heart of our city, breaking rules of civility and decency and laws and contributing nothing to the city or its taxpayers.
Tell you what. Why don't we have that Townhall Meeting and discuss the Crestwood Swim Club in depth, clear the air, and ask all the above questions at that time. Then the Mayor and the residents can take the answers you give into account and together formulate a workable overall plan. A win win situation.
That is, if by then you still think our city needs this PLAN. And if you do, I can tell you where we should start. Take a guess.
The Encyclopedia of Stupidity by Matthijs van Boxsel is based on the author's contention that "stupidity is in fact the foundation of our civilization" and his idea that no one is intelligent enough to realise how stupid they are. This is not as stupid as it sounds if one includes in the definition of stupidity "unwitting self-destruction, the ability to act against one's best wishes". A saying attributed to Albert Einstein is "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Stupidity may be more accurately viewed not the opposite of intelligence but as a kind of flawed or absence of intelligence, the darkness that makes the light of true intelligence visible. Contrasted with ignorance, which is the lack of knowledge, not the lack of intelligence.
The light at the end of the tunnel is coming close to all of you.
Ask a Stupid Question Day is a holiday that is sometimes celebrated in the United States, usually by school students and teachers. Although Ask a Stupid Question Day takes place on September 28, it is usually observed on the last school day of September.
The origins of this day are hard to trace, though it is believed the holiday was started in the 1980s by school teachers to encourage their students speak up and ask questions that the students would not have normally asked as they felt they were stupid questions. A view held by many teachers is that "the only stupid question is a question not asked", so this holiday was created basically as a teaching aid, and grew from there.
Holy moley, what a missive that was! You hit that one pretty hard, believe me!
How about a rebuttal from the pool president, and she should sign her name please.
Are you willing to do that madam president?
Tom Ford
Yawn
7:05 PM blogger! I am glad your back, I thought you "Yawned" yourself to death!
What about "Madam President," is she awake, and able to answer the bloggers question?
Tom Ford
what does any of this have to do with getting instep with the Mayors paln?
"Madam president", the guantlet has been thrown down before you! Will you respond, and will you give us your name, or will you be religated to the list of those who "wish to remain anonymous?"
Now is the time for you to defend the swim club deal because if you don't, well the Crestwood Citizens will see through this deal for what it is!
3:48 blogger, "Time waits for no man," the "pool issue" is what it is, and it must be delt with now!
Tom Ford
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
What do you mean delt with? Is this related to the Delta force?
No, discussed, as in dialog.
Tom Ford
I deleted the 9:41 post as I felt it was un-warrented, and not relivent to the discussion.
Tom Ford
Your town hall meeting is every second and fourth Tuesday of the month at 7:00 p.m. All those who wish to express their opinions or ask questions of the administration are invited to do so during the public comment portion of the agenda.
Martha Duchild
I don't recall anyone pressing former Mayors Robertson or Fagan for their 'plans'.
I do recall former Mayor Brasfield putting together a group, Commission 2000, to put together a plan or vision for the community.
The all of a sudden multiple posts/requests for a plan from this mayor seem rather unusual.
2:11 9/17 Blogger. I agree with your comments. And the people who are holding this mayor's "feet to the fire" about him not having a plan, are all those who still think that the two previous mayors are without sin and were above their request for a plan.
who cares a rats tail end about former mayors having or not having a plan, maybe our current problems are because they didnt have a plan. So what's wrong in asking everybody to support this mayors plan if we really want to avoid the mistakes made by past mayors?
Are the last two posters suggesting we should not hold our mayors feet to the fire?
Jon is that you???
What is your plan blogger? Share with us your ideas for this city, since you seem so concerned about it's welfare. Since you are so concerned about a "plan", then you should have some positive ideas then, shouldn't you?
"who cares a rats tail end about former mayors having or not having a plan, maybe our current problems are because they didnt have a plan"
A lot of people care.
Former mayor:
1. Huge car allowance for one many with two jobs. One man - two jobs - lot of power and not elected by the people.
2. 14 million dollar police station.
3. $10,000 worth of new office furniture for the mayor's office.
4. GO Bonds that went gone....
What will you be saying if NOW the current mayor supported a GO bond? hmmmmmm? It is not totally out of the question.
You like taxes?
What's Jim Robertson doing these days?
Its what I thought all along, its not the plan people are up set about its the person who designed it they are upset about.
Lets look at the mayors plan and see if it has merit.
The GO Bonds were to be paid off by the extention of the Captial Improvement Sales Tax Sunset(not an increase in the tax rate), not our Property Taxes, so in the long run the GO Bonds would have not cost you any more for your property or to shop in Crestwood.
Lets ask the CA what he thinks about GO bonds at the town hall meetings just to settle this once and for all and then move on
So, now we go from the plan back to the GO Bonds. Didn't they 'go' somewhere, like in defeat in April 2005?
Maybe this C/A will have a better way of selling the idea of GO Bond's and this time Roy will not be against them?
"Didn't they 'go' somewhere, like in defeat in April 2005?"
Yeah, that is why Crestwood is still has financial problems. Pay as you go just is not making the bottom line any better. Imagine that!
So, either pay for the services provided or shut up. Do you think, during the GO bond campaign, they were kidding when they indicated Crestwood needs money to pay for services, or they might be cut?
Maybe if the previous boards/administrations were actually paying closer attention to what was going on in Crestwood and focusing on something called economic development, maybe Crestwood would not be in the mess that it is.
Maybe if they focused on earning, instead of buying new office furniture, and building an outlandish police facility, maybe, just maybe, things would be better.
Remember, you've got to earn to spend. Signs of economic trouble in Crestwood appeared in the late '90s, so they had plenty of time to do something about it. Did they? Instead, they spent, spent, spent.
Services cut? Why didn't they think about that when they pitched the police building? Why didn't they think about that when new office furniture was purchased?
Imagine that!
Whatever you want to think.
Poster 8:20 Ok so your right, 100% right. Now do you feel better about not supporting the GO Bonds? Well think a little more for a minute.
The Go Bonds would have been paid for by a property tax increase and with the bonds sold the debt would be gone.
The voters just passed a property tax increase for almost the same amount as the GO Bonds, yet we havent paid off the debt.
So while you have every right to be mad and upset and say what you said, but you know what, you still got the short end of the stick?
Now, do you still feel better? You showed them, did't you?
No, I didn't show them anything.
But Crestwood suffered. And if you think these GO Bonds are the solution to all that ails Crestwood, we'll good for you!
I sure hope the mayor's plan is not GO bonds. What would his supporters say?
And to the 9:32 PM, September 18, 2006 comment - I agree with you completely! Oh, the interest rate would have been cheaper and locked in! But remember no financials have been published because "there's alot of people out there that would not understand" Guess the ones following blindly are the ones that would not understand.
"Why didn't they think about that when they pitched the police building?"
Do you know the ending balance of the Capital Improvement Fund as of 2005? or even the current balance?
Oh, I guess if that money is put into one checking account to "cover" the line of credit.....not going to happen.
Yes, the capital improvement fund had money. The general fund did not. So are you saying it's OK to build a police building while general fund of the city was broke?
Where's the common sense? Where's the cautious spending?
And no, I do not agree with the comingling of funds either.
What do Aldermen Kelleher, Duwe, and former Aldermen Trueblood have against the residents of Ward 3 who live on Ewers Drive?
From the city's website, Board of Aldermen minutes - 12-14-2004 http://ci.crestwood.mo.us/docs/agendas_minutes/boa/2004_12_14/04-12-14%20minutes.pdf
"Mayor Fagan stated that the motion would be to amend the Capital Improvements budget to remove the item relating to the reconstruction of Ewers Drive, Lawndale and Ewers Court.
On roll call vote the motion failed.
AYES: Kelleher, Trueblood, Duwe
NAYS: Breeding, O’Keefe, Miguel, Maddox, LaBore
ABSENT: None"
If the Capital Improvements fund had money, why did these three aldermen go do this?
Jim Kelleher - (314)909-7928
Pat Duwe - (314)842-1009
Tim Trueblood- (314)822-0816
Did anyone attend the meetings that were held yesterday and this evening? I'm thinking the public should have been given more notice.
BONDS!!!! BAIT AND SWITCH? In this week's SunCrest Call is an article by Burke Wasson: "Crestwood officials formulating RFP to secure tax-exempt financing pact". Apparently the GO Bonds weren't such a bad idea afterall. The only problem is interest rates are a lot higher now than they were in April, 2005. There is also a strong possibly that no one will buy the bonds after the defeasance of the police facility/City Hall renovation COPs.
Yeah. Just think of the cuts in city services and personnel that could have been avoided with the GO Bonds of April, 2005. The dirty little secret is that the total of the tax increases in November, 2005 and the property tax increase in April, 2006 under the present mayor and C/A is more than half a million dollars more than would have occurred with the GO Bonds of April, 2005. That is not including the increased line of credit and bank loan interest costs.
Yeah. Just think of the cuts in city services and personnel that could have been avoided with the GO Bonds of April, 2005. The dirty little secret is that the total of the tax increases in November, 2005 and the property tax increase in April, 2006 under the present mayor and C/A is more than half a million dollars more than would have occurred with the GO Bonds of April, 2005. That is not including the increased line of credit and bank loan interest costs.
While discussing the GO bonds issue, blogger(s) might want to remember that there were 3 "Prop 1" meetings held at Whitecliff Park Rec Center and all 3 meetings were extremely well attended. Full House actually. At these meetings the entire proposal was thoroughly discussed and many questions were posed and answered. Good questions. Opposition speakers to Prop 1 were "disallowed" after a few residents tried to speak.
There was plenty of pro literature and press regarding Prop 1 distributed. So, to try now to blame a Mayor or a contingent of opposition just won't cut it. Residents who had heard the pros and cons said NO and NO means NO. You would have to go door to door and talk to all the voters to find out why they said NO.
As for "Prop S", here again, a resident committee (same group with some additional members) worked to get a YES vote. This time it worked. If this was not the right road to take, then take it up with this committee and the voters. The lady who was leader had a letter on this blog asking for your YES vote. Apparently they approved of this tax increase and managed to convince the public it was a good idea.
Were the voters for Prop S told that they would be voting for GO bonds or GO bond like debt obligations?
Very good question. If this question was not posed at one of the 3 meetings that were held to sell Prop 1 then the committee should have made it part of their presentation. Apparently they had several speakers who covered a lot of ground and a question and answer period. You could check this out.
We seem, of late, to be recognizing the need to make sure ballot proposals are thoroughly and completely made clear in their languageand intent in order to eliminate incorrect choices due to lack of clarification. This would be the case where voters were led astray and almost got a 14.5 Million Dollar city hall and soon (November Elec.) the Charter Issue; which language is so vague as to be inadequate. It will behoove people to make sure they understand this issue and if information is put out on this issue that it is clearly NEUTRAL and UNDERSTOOD. Otherwise, if not understood by the voters, this change to our city constitution will be an injustice to the electorate.
Many in the city feel that the original Charter Commission did an outstanding job on the Charter and other than one simple housekeeping change (date of fiscal year for the city), it remains a solid piece of work, sans political influence, which works, works well and does not need amending.
8:44PM
Well said!
Following are quotes from just this post alone regarding GO bonds. I guess these individuals need to contact the mayor and tell him they think it is a bad idea. I guess they believed the mayor when he stated that the bonds were long term debt and he wanted to pay as you go......oh, and I guess they think that Prop S was passed because of the citizens that supported it - not because the mayor supported it! The 2005 GO bonds failed because of the mayor and his campaign against was them. I assume now he will be supporting this idea? hmmm Wonder what his supporters think of him now. Waiting to hear.....
"There was plenty of pro literature and press regarding Prop 1 distributed. So, to try now to blame a Mayor or a contingent of opposition just won't cut it. Residents who had heard the pros and cons said NO and NO means NO."
"Didn't they 'go' somewhere, like in defeat in April 2005? "
"4. GO Bonds that went gone.... "
"And if you think these GO Bonds are the solution to all that ails Crestwood, we'll good for you!"
The previous blogger makes several assumptions:
1. Are you are saying that because candidate-for-mayor Robinson was against the GO Bonds in April 2005, the bond issue went down in defeat?
What is your evidence to support this? There could be other reasons for defeat, such as residents were simply not happy with business as usual in city hall or they were not happy with those who sat at the dias up at city hall. The city was in a fiscal mess and in the printed press all of the time. By April 2005, most residents knew of the financial trouble that burdened the city. Many residents and neighbors I talked to did not want to give city hall any extra money at that time. From 2000-2005, several tax measures were presented to the voters. It is possible voters were tired of giving their money away, especially after seeing what went on in city hall. So your broad based assumption that because candidate-for-mayor Robinson was against the GO Bonds, they went down in defeat, is incorrect. There were other reasons as well.
2. Prop S was supported by the mayor, but was it his support and his support alone that got it passed?
It was also endorsed by the Board of Aldermen and a citizens group. The mayor was a supporter of Prop S, but a lot of others were with him as well. Even the new city administrator supported Prop S.
What will be said if Robinson endorses a GO Bond idea? I'm not sure. I imagine some will support and some may not and I imagine that some of his supporters will be OK with it and some will not.
The voters of Crestwood rejected Prop 1. The voters of Crestwood passed Prop S.
As mentioned, you will need to interview voters to find out why, or blame them for disagreeing with your take.
The facts were all presented on both Propositions. Both had support of a resident committee, not formed by the Mayor. Prop S especially had tons of literature, signs, meetings on Yorkshire Estates Drive. Putting this whole thing in perspective might be your next step. You simply cannot blame a Mayor on everything. Actually saying Prop S is a mistake is like saying your fellow residents are idiots. Is that what you wanted to do? It also deems the resident committee who worked very hard to get it passed, wrong. So, you apparently think all the above are idiots. What is with you?
My fellow residents already have said they were idiots when they say that they didnt know what they were voting for when they voted to extend the Cap. Improvments Sunset.
My, my, how harsh!
What does the article in the Call mean? What is a tax exempt loan?
my my your quote not mine and that is what they said publicly
The Mayor was against the GO Bond issue through most of his campaign, publicly stated at one of his town meetings that he didn't think Crestwood needed that money. He made assumptions based on his years of service as an alderman, days long gone past.
Right before he was elected, about 2 weeks prior, the Mayor changed his mind about the GO Bonds, stated he wasn't opposed to them (although didn't really support them). This was after he found out that certain members of the GO Bond committee were his biggest supporters (including his then friend, now Police Chief Mike Palu).
He did hurt the City by not supporting these. Everyone knew that if Fagan won, the GO Bonds would pass, and if Robinson won, they would be defeated, that issue was directly tied to their campaigns. (Okay, now somebody tell me how they were apart by a few votes, not identical #s.)
The GO Bonds would have solved the City's problems by getting us all the money needed to pay back bank loans and paychecks in one lump sum, with a definite end to taxpayers. Now the Mayor states that we'll need more tax increases because our money is trickling in too slow.
He didn't do his homework before he opened his mouth, and worked against something the City badly needed.
7:16 AM, 9/21 blogger!Thank the Lord you are here to save us from ourselves!
What poise, what panasch, what a self centered, arrogant post that was!
Tom Ford
Poster 7:16 may have been arrogant, but what they said is true, those who claimed they didn't know what they voted for sounded like John Kerry when he said he voted for the $ for the war in Iraq before he voted against it. Imagine how the voters who voted for our most recent tax increase must feel after reading this weeks issue of the Call which you linked to.
There is no excuse for not knowing what you are voting for, period.
Sorry. No sale.
There is no excuse for not placing clear ballot language before the voters.
There is no excuse for not mentioning a new police facility in the very ordinance that authorized the election for the Capital Improvements extension election.
Both items are especially embarassing in light of the fact that the mayor at the time won an award for openness in government.
Sorry, your out of business on that, every newspaper that covers Crestwood printed stories explaining for what the extention would be used. Which makes one wonder that if they didn't read the papers what makes you think they would read the ballot?
Weak excuse for an uniformed public is what has been presented, and I dont buy it. I think the voters knew what they were voting for and this bit being presented about ballot language is just a cover up by a few who are embarrassed that they supported the extention and now find it is not politicaly correct.
This bit about unclear ballot is myth and it is now busted!
Hear Ye! Hear Ye!
Let's start packing up the city and getting ready to change the name to Sunset Hills!
How many tax increases can the average Crestwood Citizen handle in their budget?
How can we afford all of these high paying public officials on "NO Money"?
When will Southwest Bank call in their note?
In order for the City of Crestwood to rebuild, Watson Rood needs new Infrastructure.
Infrastructure means, we need all new Storm Sewers, Electric Power Lines, Water Lines, and Gas Lines.
What year was the first gas, electric, storm sewer, and water line put in Crestwood?
I bet it was in the early 1900's!
Maybe the reason why the RFP for the bonds are being considered is because of the past actions from Southwest bank regarding the "loans" to the City of Crestwood. Wonder if any institution will submit competitive interest rates because of the past bonds being voted down and the defeasement. Would not look like a good investment to me if I were lending the money.
I trust the mayor's plan what ever it is, don't you? If not why not?
You tell me!
blogger 7:20 AM, September 22, 2006
Sorry, but once again no sale.
So it's OK to sign contracts that are not fully detailed? It's OK to sell items and not include said item in the contract? Is that OK?
Do we vote for candidates without having their names on the ballot?
What happened to clarity and openness in government?
The police facility should have been included in the ballot language and the ordinance that authorized the election. It was shameful it wasn't on either item.
Many residents have busy lives and don't always read the local papers all of the time. Some read these regularly and some not at all. Those that do may take the news with a grain of salt.
I believe the city published Crestwood Connections only had one issue covering that particular election.
The city had a responsibility to be more upfront as to what its residents were voting for. It was not.
Why were the words 'new police facility' not mentioned in the ballot wording or the ordinance?
What was the idea behind that? Was this deliberate?
Maybe an investigation should be started to look into this.
Dear Head in the Sand,
Dont talk to me about more open Govt and having clarity and being upfront at the same time that this mayor is attempting to use Bonds or COPS with increased tax dollars from PropS. Were Bonds/COPS listed on the ballot for prop S? Nope, they sure were not listed, but your strangly quite about that and this most recent turn of events.
Dont give me that junk about most people live busy lives, they were not to busy to vote yet you claim they were too busy to read three (3) local newspapers AND the Cities newsletter so they would be informed about what the money they were voting on was to be used for?
Show me one newspaper article and any issue of the City's newsletter that told you that the money from your increased property tax was going to be used to buy bonds or COPS...There was not one.
You sound more and more like John Kerry with this line your trying to get your yourself to believe, because no one else will buy it.
Sorry, your out of business, every thing must go.
So go already, your line of logic is a waste of cyber ink.
Amen previous blogger!!
My head is clear and concentrating. Sorry to get you so upset with my clear, relevant, correct and appropriate points. My, my, if I'm such a waste of cyberspace, why did you send such a lengthy reply?
I haven't said anything yet about Prop S - cops or bonds. If Prop S is used for anything other than debt reduction, then you will hear me.
Reality is that people are busy. Take a walk in your neighborhood. You will see some of the Times newspapers, delivered last night, still on some lawns and driveways.
Ask several of your neighbors if they read the Call or the Times. I imagine many do, but I'm sure some do not.
Reality is the city covered the issue with only ONE Crestwood Connections.
It is shameful that the words "new police facility" were not included in the ballot language or the ordinance endorsing it. How much ink would it have taken to print that? Why did they leave those words out?
No, my head is not in the sand. Sorry to see you so upset.
But I do think an investigation should be started to see what was behind the omission of those words.
After all, where is the "sunshine"?
Have a nice day:)
Who was responsible for drafting that ballot language?
9:49 PM, September 22, 2006
I thought you were discussing the police building ballot. Now you jump to Prop S. I thought a lot of people on this blog wanted bonds.
John Kerry? How about Ted Kennedy? Look at the number of new taxes that have been presented to the voters over the past 6 years. The hiring freeze is thawed so its warm. We have a great aquatic center but so do our municipal neighbors. They attempted to build a 47,000 sq.ft. police building. 6 years of increased taxation. Still we have debt and the continued threat of cut services.
It really wouldn't have been that difficult to put
"and build a new police facility"
on the ballot. It's not like we would have depleted the world of ink!
I think the intent was not to itemize the balot language. That might have locked the city into too specific of an item to fund. Broader language would allow the city to use the income for other city capital improvement projects. They were trying to think ahead - you know more of a long term plan than "pay as you go".
So leave it open ended? What is the definition of a capital improvement? If the language is open-ended, what safegards are in place?
So if the ballot language was not itemized, it would allow for "other city capital improvement projects"? What if the powers that be wanted to build a racetrack? A hot dog stand?
I know I'm being sarcastic and for that I apologize, but I'm trying to prove a point. What protections or guarantees do the voters have? Even today, what if the powers that be decide to use Prop S money for something other than debt? What can we as voters do? How vague should ballot language be?
Shouldn't it be as clear and concise as possible?
I guess it boils down to the voter caring enought about their right and privilage to vote in a free country to take the TIME needed to at least know what the heck they are voting on.
An example of this not happening is the voting of judges, how many people vote on a judge with out knowing a thing about them, 75% of the voters? More, less?
So again to claim people are too busy to take the time to read at least one article about a ballot issue in the 4 publications that showed up on their driveway or mailbox, or to have not taken the time to attend a Board of Alderman meeting and heard it from, shall we say, the horses mouth is a darn poor excuse for a lack of adult citizenship.
I am sick of those who do not want to take the responsablity for their own adult actions including how they vote, and are always looking to blame someone else for the results of what they did. Grow up, will you.
One other point, poster 10:45 the taxes rates were not increased with the passage of the extention of the Sunset on the Capital Improvements Sales Tax. Understand?
Prop S is a tax INCREASE on your property, understand?
Ord. for prop "S". Please copy and paste to your browser.
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/docs/agendas_minutes/boa/2006_01_17/ordinance%203958%20calling%20for%20a%20tax%20rate%20issue%20on%20april%202006%20ballot.pdfser.
Tom Ford
Poster 7:42 AM, September 23, 2006
Yes, I understand that tax rates were not increased with the extension of the Capital Improvements Tax. What I said was that many tax proposals were put before voters from 2000-2001. Understand?
Yes, I understand that Prop S was an increase on real estate (not property in general).
I think voters should know and educate themselves as to what they are voting on. The municipality or government that brings to them ballot issues has the responsibility to be clear, concise, and informative on the ballot language.
I agree - and Prop S did not say one word about authorizing bonds. If it did that - then it should have said that. And the citizen's committee should not have lied about what it was for.
Speaking of where the money goes ...
Where will the funds from the sale of the older fire vehichle, approx. 15,000 be deposited?
Pls advise.
7:42 AM, 9/23 blogger.
Personal property tax will also go up along with real estate taxes!
That is to say, if you own a boat, trailer, motor home, airplane, car, motorcycle, Atv, or what ever else they can (and do,) tax, you have a heafty incresae coming!
I will look it up, and post it for you.
Tom Ford
Yep, here it is in the minutes of the BOA meeting 1/17/06 where all the then sitting Aldermen voted to ammend the ord. per request from the City Atty.
Some how the rate for personal property also was included, and it will go up . 20 along with the property taxes.
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/docs/agendas_minutes/boa/2006_01_17/06-01-17%20special%20meeting.pdf
It's all right there in plain sight (all be it, under the staple,) so much for plain ballot language!
Never forget folks that "ballot language" is written by lawyers! NUFF SAID!
Tom Ford
I don't remember the citizens committee mentioning an increase in personal property taxes or bonds. Why didn't they know what they were working to pass?
I seem to remember that the PPT was a topic of conversation at one point. I think it was on the blog at one time (I would have to check that,) I know several voters mentioned it to me prior to the election.
Any way you cut it, this is a very interesting turn of events, as no bonds (reference, Prop "S",) were ever discussed at any of the meetings I attended at Ms. Brauns home!
This bond thing may be a tie into the comments made by Mr. Frank Myers at the last "ways and means committe" meeting, or a recient work session. I wish I could tell you, but I have no idea!
All I can say is that bonds were bad then, and their bad now, so let's all find out what's going on here!
Tom Ford
Tom,
I dont know if I agree with you that bonds were bad then, they are bad now statement. But what I can agree with you is that Prop S in no way allowed for the sales of bonds as a part of the debt re-payment plan presented to the voters.
Therefore one has to assume if there is an attempt to use the increase in dollars provided by Prop S passage to purchase bonds or COPS it is because the City has no other choice in their debt reduction plan. Legally or because the bank will not extend it's lending agreement any further the City must pay off the bank now.
Go to the minutes of the meeting of 12/13/05, and read the comments made under the heading of "An ordinance calling for the election for the purpose of imposing a general property tax". It is very clear that former Alderman Trueblood felt that the only way to pay off the debt was through the use of GO bonds because of what the bank could do in Oct 2006 or what was the legal action the City must take. It is just a clear that the Mayor felt such a issue would fail because it needed 57% approval to pass. In fact if you go as far back in the minutes as August of 2005 you will see like conversations between Trueblood the Mayor and others on the issue of the debt and the best way to retire it.
The point in this is not to say that Trueblood was correct as much as it is to show clearly how those elected at that time understood the differance between a simple property tax increase and Bonds/COPS and what the public understood.
All in all it makes for interesting reading if you take the time to do so.
Well, I will give you the point that "bonds were not bad", but I look at them as a way for those outside of Crestwood to gain from our problems.
Mr. Trueblood was entirely correct in stating that the problems would rear their ugly head, and they have!
That said however, what do we do now that the "horse is out of the barn?." Do we indeed need more revenue to pay off the debt at Southwest Bank, or are we going to be able to do that with Prop. "S"?
All I can say is that I am not a fan of bonds (from Prop."S", or "GO,") at all! This is not what we wanted, nor is it what we voted for!
Tom Ford
Didn't Trueblood introduce the ordinance for Prop S. Didn't he support it? If it was or is such a bad idea, why did he support it?
Can't speak for Trueblood but aldermen not uncommonly introduce ordinances that they don't support. That said. I would not be one bit surprised that Trueblood supported a measure he believed was inadequate simply because it was viewed by some as a last gasp resort to save Crestwood from financial disaster even if it may well prove to be inadequate. And the present talk about Prop S and tax-exempt financing indicates to some that not only were voters misled on what Prop S authorized but also that it is an inadequate measure.
One reason why an alderman introduces a bill he doesn't support is simply the alderman knows or believes it can be amended into something the alderman can support. If it is not amended into something the alderman can support, the alderman can always simply vote against its final passage. There are also other reasons why aldermen introduce bills they don't support but there is no real purpose in giving a list.
An Alderman introduces a bill simply because it's their turn to do so, There is nothing more to it than that!
Forget who "introduces a bill", and watch who votes for the bill. There is a vast difference.
Tom Ford
Aldermen also introduce bills which they originate. But the important meat and potatoes of the matter is how any alderman votes on the final version of the bill.
It's starting to look like the PLAN was to put a tax increase on the ballot that only takes a simple majority to pass, when the real PLAN was to later say it authorized bonds - except a bond issue requires a 4/7's majority. Does that bother anyone?
Yes, it does. According to some the people voted NO to the GO bonds. Now what?
The plan was an increase in property taxes. If the ballot language was deceptive, well must have been written by the same person who wrote the one that claimed it was intended to be for a 14.5 Million Dollar City Hall even though we were flat out broke. Would you like a list of the Alderman who participated in the vote to put the tax increase on the ballot and who you are blaming on this so called deception. Or maybe a list of the resident committee who promoted it. Best be careful who you blame on this. There is lots of your kind of blame to go around. Keep the politics out of it. Won't work this time.
Some people are absolutely shameless: "Keep the politics out of it."
See it doesn't matter what the wording was - it matters what majority it passed by. end of story. the board that put it on the ballot meant for it to be a simple tax increase - read the minutes. if this board decides it authorized bonds, they'll need to prove it passed by 4/7.
8:10 blogger, good luck on the BOA proving they had 4/7th majority. It looks as if they plan to change the wording, and re-introduce the Prop. "S" proposal as a "bond issue".
The first meeting in October is when I am told this will come before the Board. I can hardly wait to hear how this is going to be spun, but it should be a good one!
Keep October Tuesdays open, and I will advise the date for this meeting.
Tom Ford
Why would they do that?
Wait a minute Tom, this action to convert the tax doallrs from the passage of Prop.S into bond payments is not the Aldermans idea, its the City Administrators idea, as reported in the CALL. Call your alderman and ask him/her if the first they heard of this idea was when they read the CALL.
The Aldermen have the power to approve or turn down the idea as well as the City's lawyer can say no its against the law or the Mayor could veto. Let Mr. Myers bring before the BOA and see how they react, but do not lay this idea at their feet.
4:02 PM blogger. I was not aware that I was "laying anything at their feet", I simply said good luck on proving the 4/7th. majority.
By the way, I attended the last Way's and means committee meeting when this idea first surfaced. There were Alderman present, as well as the C/A, and I don't remember any of them saying no to he idea.
Tom Ford
Since we thought Prop S was a RE tax increase to pay off the LOC, and now bonds have been introduced into the equasion, it is up to the BOA to listen up and determine the best route to take and why. They have had the opportunity to discuss alternatives and reasons and should work together to accomodate what must be done and then tell the constituancy why.
No one ever said the LOC was a walk in the park. It was a lifesaving device. The reasons for it go back to a former administration. Prop S was ultimately passed by voters and voted on by the board. It would be unfair to start placing blame now. Who would you blame? Anyone who even tries has his head in the sand.
Hmmm. Bonds. I did not read about a bond issue in Prop S when I voted. Did you? Were voters intentionally misled? Would any voter have voted differently if they knew that Prop S was a bond issue in disguise? If so, I think fraud has occurred.
12:02 9/29
Why don't you pay attention to this whole issue, Mr. Fraud? You are nothing more than someone trying to cause friction, place blame, create division. None of that spells concerned resident. None of that spells knowledgeable. Quite obviously you haven't a clue about things. Sure it's complicated. And our officials are confronting all aspects with diligence. I don't recall nominating you to run interference.
Poster 2:13, I am not poster 12:02, but I must respone to your pile of "junk" with this simple question.
Who nominated you to to run the defense for our elected officals? I dont recall them asking for your help.
Since your such a know it all why dont you explain to those of us who are not as knowledgeable as you are what the "whole issue is"? I think your just a patsy for City Hall and no matter what comes out from there your going to support.
No one at city hall needs to appoint anyone to run defense for them. Why, because most defensively support our entire Board of Aldermen, our city and our employees. Why, because we care about our community, and it is our god given right to be supportive.
If you want to know more about the issue/s you are so concerned about, then attend the meetings and address the board with your questions. No one here would want to deal with a party who calls their message junk and accuses them of being a patsy to city hall. When you refer to city hall, this consists of 8 Aldermen, a Mayor and some very nice employees.
I think, Mr. Happy, you are drinking Kool Aide from the wrong pitcher.
if I am drinking Kool Aid its of the type you sell to those who read this blog
8:08 PM blogger, would that Cool Aid sale be to you as well? My goodness, you not only "read this blog", you comment on it!
Remember, if your thin skinned a blog is no place to be. Just let the remarks stand for themselves, most of us can see very clearly through them.
Tom Ford
Recommended by former Mayor Jim Brasfield
Approved 5/1996
Board 8/1996
Commission 9/1996
64 Page Report
RE: Committee for Community Goals for 2000 and Beyond issued 10/1997
Gerri Bratsch Chairman
Madonna Laws Vice Chairman
Paul Donnelly
James Nicholas
Ann Poelzl
Chris Finnegan
Kim Gordon
Paul Hemann
Wayne Crull
Jessica Wagner
Business Community
Tracey Houston
Tom Day
Joan Robinson
Morris Sterneck
Gil Bilderback
Wayne Daniels
Kevin King
Public Services and City Growth
John Hoffman
Madonna Laws
Katie Matsumoto
Betty Meyer
Ann Golterman
Dan Merlo
Debbie Murray
Watson Road Corridor
Economic Development
Attitude towards Businesses
Page 12 Pursue Opportunities for annexation to the city and or merger contiguous city
Include Watson Road of any expansion of Public Transportation as a way to alleviate transportation
Page 14 establish 2nd Millennium with Businesses, Aldermanic Representatives, and Residents
page 64 Feasibility of Removal of Barrier on Watson Road
Question: Has Mayor Roy Robinson and our Alderman reviewed this report?
Why are we constantly paying for consultants that are telling us the same thing?
Who is blocking the expansion of Crestwood or who wants a bigger piece of the pie?
Is there a hidden agenda to bankrupt Crestwood to allow the merger with both Sunset Hills and Fenton?
Kohl's redevelopment plan was in 1998
Who is Ann Golterman?
Who is Joan Robinson?
Who is Batman?
Is Ann Golterman married to City Attorney Robert Golterman?
Is Joan Robinson married to Mayor Roy Robinson that owns Perma Jack?
When is Mayor Roy Robinson resigning from his position?
It is with glee, euphoria, palpitations and spasmodic joy that things in Crestwood are so rosy that one or more crudites are surfacing on this blog, by the hour, daily, to jest and make merry and ask stigmatized questions. Ah, cause celebre!
I had no idea this city could spawn souls with such a lack of charm, originality and wit. I thought they were all in Bagdad. I had no idea there was such a lack of kindness, goodwill, maturity and dignity just a click of my mouse away courtesy of the proud members of Three(legged)Dog Night with its gleaming board of Yada's and Yawns and pool protectors. Now I know.
Here among us, in the midst of a city searching for its center, are these avid teamer types, these spirited low roader servants of a lesser God willing to lead their distressed,thirsty, over stressed ilk back from their former paths of temptation and their Planet of the Apes mentality to a new high of BS for which there seems no cure. These city patriots are all seemingly excused from the constraint of intelligence. Free from pangs of guilt, truth and fact; free from the hinderance of any form of character and civility. Alas, this sweetheart percent of our citizenry, so minus civic pride, integrity and fairness dreams only of a city held in their crude hands again, while pulpitizing us with a negative name calling irrereverant KINGness only worthy pawns could provide - all on a free podium, a BLOG.
Where else can one go and find the Frankenstienien quality of a teamer who can match the spittle of this Shepard of our City along with a wanton overwrought band of outcasts, who so bravely use this blog as a soapbox of rage, spite, and discontent to facilitate further distress and who work with diligence to revert back to the evils of the past 3 years?
It is not surprising to see this true and self-anoited city savior surface so proudly and so often on this blog, standing on a demented stage of rotten lumber with the safety of anonymous. It is one of my favorite pastimes, this tuning in to read our Friend Mr. Tough! It makes me feel like my life is truly purpose driven.
As we glorify in the beauty and sanctitude of the season and the missing charm and intelligence of this heady barfer of whom I speak, (who sheds his thin skin with scales of wrath minus the incumbancy of more positive winds for our future, and minus the celebration of our shared pride in our community's well being)this ever-ready whineypouter-rumormongerstarter-bully-sad sack-bottomfeeder remains the cherub of his little world.
I don't wonder WHO IS JOAN or WHO IS ANN, Or WHO IS BATMAN? I only wonder WHO IS THIS LONELY, UNEMPLOYED PARASITE whose main address seems to be this site and who dedicates himself to self loathing, degradation, jealousy and hate in order to feed a need to dispise and whose arresting skill entertains us with the regularity of a Metamucilic Moron.
How do you know it's a he? Could it be a she?
Sure could. There are several known female wardies with warts enough to produce facial hair and venom so unrefined as to be hormonic sludge. But they are allowed on the blog and deserve credit for their obsessions.
10:27 10/2 What makes you so sure there is only one "bottom feeder" on this blog much less male or female. I've seen and read enough to think there is more than one.
Will all the male and female bottom feeders please stand up?
The 12:59, Oct. 10 blogger wants a roll call.
11:12 pm 10/12 Don't need their names and don't want a roll call but sounds to me like you may be one of them. Just made a statement.
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