January 17, 2007 edition of the Suncrest Call, or why no board minutes from the civil service meeting?
Now this one is a very interesting edition folks! Read the column and editorial by Mr. Burke Wasson. I have never heard of a civil service board meeting, or for that matter any board meeting where no minutes were taken.
It seems the C/A hasn't either, as he said he doesn't have an answer for it either. Well, not only is it like pulling teeth to get a meeting date and time from City hall when it comes to specialized boards (TIF,TDD,CID,) it now appears that this one wasn't publicized very well either!
"Sunshine law, we don't need no stinken sunshine law!" (to paraphrase Eli Wallach.)
Please click on the header for the on line paper.
Tom Ford
NO. 275
It seems the C/A hasn't either, as he said he doesn't have an answer for it either. Well, not only is it like pulling teeth to get a meeting date and time from City hall when it comes to specialized boards (TIF,TDD,CID,) it now appears that this one wasn't publicized very well either!
"Sunshine law, we don't need no stinken sunshine law!" (to paraphrase Eli Wallach.)
Please click on the header for the on line paper.
Tom Ford
NO. 275
posted by Crestwood Independent at 16:36
110 Comments:
Please, let's be civil about this discussion!
I don't seem to recall any coverage in the Call's editorial column when Greer had an economic development meeting - Watson Road redevelopment meeting and closed it to local business owners. Was there an editorial regarding that issue? That was briefly after they nominated former Mayor Jim Robertson, now resigned, for the Missouri Press Sunshine Award.
5:28PM here:
I think Greer allowed only residents into the meeting. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
4:55PM blogger: Civil, why that would be doing a dis- SERVICE to the entire City (heh, heh, heh!)
Tom Ford
But this current mayor PROMISED us a more open City Hall didnt he? Two wrong now make a right in Crestwood.
Greer's shady actions aside, it's clear somebody screwed up here and now at city hall. Kudos to Burke for having the guts to point it out.
Transparancy in government - that's all we ask.
Amen! Where are the minutes from your meetings acting president?
I seem to recall a problem getting minutes, either on time, or at all and I certainly don't recall the meetings highlighted for any/all of the CHARTER COMMISSION Meetings which meetings were held prematurely at the request of the former Mayor. And whose members chose a very interesting charade of changes.
Was the more recent meeting regarding the TDD as it applies to Kohl's/Bonds/Swim Club made public?? I don't think so.
For the Sunshine Law to apply, it must be applied across the board. Knowing there was a Civil Service Commission, at what time did any Aldermen contact this commission with questions or concerns, suggestions or meeting dates - general info? For concern to be concern, it must be addressed before and duuring, not just after the fact. For an editorial to have any compact, it must take all these things into consideration.
Perhaps the CALL editor should have attended these meetings, since he is so concerned. The Civil Service Board was no secret since the appointment of one of its members became fodder at a BOA Meeting, too. Seems there is only interest when it can be made into an administration flaw. Is this Civil Service not going to be fully aired and discussed prior to its passing? Let's get on with it and remember, if you are interested in a board or commission and its agenda pick up the phone and get the details from city hall.
So now we're supposed to ask about things we aren't even aware are happening? I think that's the purpose of posting the meeting dates on the website isn't it???
The TDD meetings are not posted on the website either. How come the Call did not cover this?
I thought the city clerk was responsible for posting minutes and meeting notices??? Frank Myers would know. Talk to him, he'll be frank with you;)
TIF, TDD, CID meetings are not required by law to be posted (believe it or not,) that's why the staff was so mad wnen citizens showed up at the last one!
The only way we will get some answers here is to be vigilant! We must get the dates and times from the C/A, and attend!
I will send a second E-mail to the C/A requesting the date and time, and failing that, I will give him a FOIA form demanding it.
Tom Ford
I don't know too much about the meeting notices for the TIF's, TDD's, etc. but when it comes to Civil Service meetings, the reason why past meetings during the Killoren/Leichliter or Brasfield/Leichliter era were never posted was because the meetings discuss personnel matters, such as grievances filed by employees. They were closed sessions. And, at that time, meetings were not needed regarding reviewing the rules and regulations like today. The Civil Service Rules and Regulations were never part of their discussions.
However, during that era, the CA did nothing to cooperate with the Civil Service Board and frankly in speaking with two of the prior Chairmans, the CA dismissed many of the issues that were placed before them because he detested personnel matters and never wanted to be bothered with getting involved in them. Both of these chairmen finally gave up and threw their hands up in disgust and that started the fall of the original Civil Service Board.
This board was specifically brought to Crestwood by the first CA, Dale Rieth, who felt that employees needed protection from so-called politicians who were getting involved with employee matters and were bringing their politics into the work force.
I also guess that the reason why there is no aldermanic representative to the Civil Service Board is because it would again bring politicians into employee matters.
Dale Rieth said when approving Civil Service back in 1978-9 that the rules and regulations were an "arm" of the current State Civil Service Board Rules and Regulations. Politicians at that time were totally "out of hand" getting people hired and fired for no good reasons. Something like Don Greer did when he said to me that "he was the Civil Service Rules and Regulations" and if I didn't take a demotion, I would be fired". According to the Civil Service Rules and Regulations before he got his hands on them, he would have had to put that in writing and explain his reasons for doing so.
I hope that in the future, we can keep people from being afraid every day that some renegade will come along and destroy employees in Crestwood for no good reason and ruin their lives just because they can. I hope that the Civil Service Rules and Regulations become part of the City again because we have many good employees who should be treated with respect and honesty. We have good employees who support families and shouldn't be stripped of their dignity because someone wants his own "people".
Thank you.
Sandy Grave
Great post Sandy. Thanks for the information.
So what does the history of the Civil Service board have to do with their failure to post agenda and minutes as CURRENT Sunshine LAW requires?
Well now that you ask probably nothing, however it's good to know the history of the City wouldn't you agree?
Nice post Sandy!
Tom Ford
6:22 PM 1/19 I guess you need to ask someone who knows what the parameters of the Sunshine Law are.
If the Civil Service Board is just discussing amendments to the rules and regulations or changes to be made or kept, I don't understand why these meetings wouldn't be made public like all the other boards and commission meetings are.
If the Civil Service Board is going into a meeting to discuss personnel and grievances, etc., I am not sure that these issues would be under the perview of the Sunshine Law.
That's a very good question, and I would be interested in knowing the answer.
Sandy Grave
5:28 PM 1/17 Yes. Correct. Greer had an economic develop. meeting and closed it to local business owners. You think that's the first and only time Greer did things his way? That's because Greer did whatever he wanted to do and was never called to task. He owned this city and everyone bowed to his ever whim and fancy!
But now, every little thing that people can conjure up to say about this mayor and this administration is strung out on a big clothes line and waved in front of everyone. Again, those who thought Greer was God, never questioned him!!!! But let one thing go wrong now, and you never hear the end of it.
Ha! Jim Robertson nominated for the Mo. Press Sunshine Award? Funny that he would be nominated for an award for open communication with the Newspapers and the Press when the real reasons for his ultimate resignation were never devulged. You'll never hear or read an editorial about it either.
6:22 PM, January 19, 2007 blogger
You are trying to cast blame on the committee itself. It was the city's duty, whether that be the city clerk, city administrator, or whoever.
Posters 9:54 and 7:56 which of you is right? 7:75 based on your statements it was the Mayor, 9:54 is it was the City Clerk or C/A.
I think the Acting President of the Civil Service Commission never told anyone at CITY HALL when they were having meetings. So I blame her.
Since she is the smartest women in Crestwood, she had to know about the Sunshine Law. I think the lack of notices being posted or keeping minutes was done on purpose.
Ultimately it's the responsibility of the City Administrator to administrate city business. The issue is not the sunshine law, as the meetings were posted (at city hall) and minutes were taken. The issue is why wasn't this posted on the website?
Ask yourself this question: If you would have seen it on the website would you have attended? I didn't think so.
Let's activate our common sense gene. If you are really interested in our goverment activities, then make an effort to go to city hall and find out; ask questions, etc... The more people go up there, the more likely it is that this information will be posted on the website. Don't count on others to do it for your because more than likely you won't get the whole story.
Dear 7:12am.
Good morning Karen (or is it Tim?)! It's nice of you to provide us with such wise input this morning. By the way, why didn't you decide to run for office?
- curious
8:41 AM blogger: Your remarks are right on the money! Now, for the folks who don't, or can't go to City Hall to read the meeting board, what do we do for them?
In fact, I wonder how many people know the location where the meetings are posted?
We all (or should) know that the "30%" rule is in effect (30% vote, 30% are interested in Government,) but if we are to get more people intersted, the City web site, and notices must be more forthcoming.
Crestwood is getting better at letting us know what's going on, but we arn't there yet. I plan to ask if the City could do a "reverse 911" call to inform us on ALL meetings. This would be a step forward in getting more participation, no?
Tom Ford
Let's face it, people who are on this blog complaining about Civil Service meetings not being posted, have no interest in attending anyway. I agree with the blogger who said that.
Crestwood lists BOA meetings and attendance is always poor. Gripe, Gripe, Gripe. Just for the heck of it Aye?
7:12 AM
Were was your concern when Greer closed a meeting to local business owners?
Just think if that silly proposal by the charter review commission passed! You know, the one that would have allowed the board of alderman to meet outside of city limits. who would take the minutes then? Would the notice be posted? Would residents have to follow the board all over the place?
You are right, we dont need no stinking Sunshine Law in Crestwood, no one cares any more, no one goes to BOA meetings or their work sessions, no one goes to Ways and Means Meetings. Since the past leaders of our city sucked so bad, why should we expect any different from this group? Don't ever hold any current leader up to the standards that former leaders are being held to cause to do so would political incorrect.
If you care to ask the Truebloods any questions you can do so by calling them at 3148220816, their number is in the phone book, or email them at stltim@hotmail.com or the blog site address is crestwoodpoliticalreview.blogspot.com
What in the world????
11:34 AM blogger: I am not at all sure you need to be attacking the Trueblood family! I, and others I'm sure have no idea where this rant came from, and I don't care.
That said however do us a favor, please take it easy, we don't wish to see you have a stroke!
Tom Ford
Not everyone has the same opinion of the Truebloods. Aside from that, the role they have played is not all that consistent with progress. The Mr. enjoyed ostrasizing the new Mayor and supporting the then C/A no matter what; the Mrs. seems to love to get her name in print. Imagine it good that Robert's Rules is back on the bookshelf for a rest. This is just one man's opinion, but I believe it to be shared. Time to move on.
UPDATE ON THE TRUEBLOOD FAMILY STATUS FOR THOSE JERKFACES WHO ARE SO OBSESSED WITH THEM: I AM AN OFFICER ON THE BOARD OF A PRIVATE FOUNDATION THAT MANAGES AN $18M ENDOWMENT, AND HAVE NO NEED TO TRY TO GET MY NAME IN THE PAPER. PEOPLE WHO SPEAK AT MEETINGS ARE OFTEN QUOTED - SO WHAT? MRS. DUCHILD'S NAME IS IN THE PAPER - GO ATTACK HER. SHE'S THE ONE WHO IS TRYING TO REINSTATE NEPOTISM IN CRESTWOOD. ASK HER ABOUT THAT CHANGE SHE TRIED TO PUSH THROUGH WITHOUT PUBLIC DEBATE.
BTW, I WILL BE QUITE BUSY IN THE COMING MONTHS, AS MY BEAUTIFUL DAUGHTER, THE ONE IN MED SCHOOL IN OHIO, IS GOING TO BE MARRIED TO A FINE CHRISTIAN BOY IN JULY. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS YOU ARE MAN OR WOMAN ENOUGH TO ASK ME DIRECTLY, CALL ME. I'D LOVE TO CHAT. BETTER YET - GET YOUR OWN LIFE AND GO LIVE IT! - Karen Steven Trueblood
ATTENTION BLOGGERS:
Sometimes things get out of hand and things are said that are meant to purposely irritate people on this blog. I don't think the sarcastic remarks made about the Truebloods are necessary. They are quite embarrassing.
But no matter how well intentioned people are, it seems that someone always has to hit A NERVE and create chaos.
However, in MRS. TRUEBLOOD'S quest to defend her status and her family, she has turned around and offended MRS. DUCHILD.
If Mrs. Trueblood feels defensive and threatened by the malcontents who choose to maline her and her husband, she should not be doing the same thing to others.
I fully understand how people and their eagerness to amuse themselves by making snide remarks can cause us all to turn to rage, but if Christianity is so important in her life, she needs to start acting like a Christian.
However, it is time for those who choose to keep up the beligerent behavior to cease their amusement and, like Mrs. Trueblood stated, "Get Your Own Life and Live it"!
Thank you.
OK, thats it, no more remarks about the Trueblood's, or for that matter anyone else (unless you want to sign your name, and we better be able to verify the name!)
We are supposed to be grown adults here, not a bunch of kid's who just can't have a day without a fight!
I will us my veto power's and remove any more of these childish post's as soon as I see them.
You wish to dis-agree, do so, but political discourse does not require you to sink to the depth's of personal insults (this is what a liberal does when they are out of facts!)
Did anyone read the first post that pleaded "Please, let's be civil about this discussion! ," well if you did, DO IT!
Tom Ford
Stick and Stones.
Is it true that as presented the Civil Service Commission is asking for changes that would allow for nepotism? Does anyone know where a copy of this document can be found for our review?
I sure hope our Aldermen have the time to check out these recommendations. After all, the old rules served us well for a long time, just like our Charter did, so why the desire for change? If it aint broke then why fix it?
This column was only suppose to talk about civil service. I epressed the need for civil service to come back to protect employees against politics. How did some comments turn into an out and out war against the Truebloods is beyond me.
I don't always agree with Tim. but Tim has always been gracious enough to speak to me; that's more than I can say about other previous board members. He has shown his humanity and has even admitted some mistakes he has made in the past. Some of the other high and mighty aldermen will go to their death before they admit mistakes and wouldn't give an ounce of decency to any victim of the system.
I agree with Tom.
Sandy Grave
Don't you even care about the specter of nepotism at all?
Christians are not called to be doormats.
11:01 AM
Did the old rules serve us well? What about the lawsuits, employee issues over the past several years?
I believe the revised civil service document can be found on the city's website under agenda items for the board of aldermen.
True, the charter served us well. In that case, there was no need to change it or to add silly provisions.
It was clear that Trueblood disagreed with Mayor on many issues, so what? That was and still is his right to do so.
Yes, it is. But it is our right to disagree with the Trueblood's as well.
11:19 am Yes, I have something to say and hope you read all of my comment.
What's the story on this nepotism thing? I would like to know about the accusations and the public debate statement.
I am sorry but I do not receive the Suncrest Call because Mr. Anthony plays politics and, therefore, he always gets involved with certain candidates. In fact, he does it so much, he should really become a poltician.
As I have stated before, I don't feel that the Trueblood's should be mud slung all over the place because their ideas don't suit us. And I hope that it stops on this blog, but Mr. Anthony is the one who caused the chaos.
Sorry but he has always been a "player". He likes to create chaos and as such is perfectly aligned with those on the board who do the same thing. He's real good at it too.
If you don't wish to explain to me what is going on with the nepotism deal, that's fine. But I can tell you the only reason why Ms. Duchild is even an issue is because the Suncrest Call made it so.
If Karen Trueblood can give her discourse on this blog or anywhere she so desires, then I don't see any reason to condemn Mrs. Duchild for giving her public opinions. Everybody should be entitled to the same freedom.
And as I have stated before, I do not feel the Truebloods or anyone else should be put out there for ridicule.
If you let people's opinions fill you with hatred, expect the same back from those you hate.
I conclude that because Ms. Duchild states how she feels regarding past issues, especially because they were different from some on the BOA, she almost didn't get approved to the Civil Service Board. People on the board called her "confrontational". But they have no problem doing exactly the same thing. How funny some on the board only saw that in her, but not themselves!
Well here comes a comment about Civil Service on this blog and the January 17th edition of the Suncrest Call. SO let's lash out at Ms. Duchild since we are on the subject. Let's get back at her for her past comments. It's all a bunch of foolishness.
If she were to have aligned herself with those of her opposite view, she would have never been mentioned and would have never had to go through the ordeal of being appointed to any board or commission in the first place.
So, I ask you, is it OK that I applaud Tim for being kind and considerate to me irregardless of my issues; but also applaud Mrs. Duchild for her ability to put herself out there and give her opinions? I'm not sure that is allowed in some circles!!!
The only one who seems to be getting a real charge out of this whole "boxing match" is Mr. Anthony.
Anybody can be an editor of a paper, but everyone cannot do it with integrity and unbias or give both sides of an issue.
Thank you for your consideration.
Sandy Grave
Both Martha Duchild and Tim Trueblood have served this community very well! They got into the trenches, and the have both spoken their minds when it comes to wharts right for Crestwood!
You may wish to dis-agree with what the are saying, but never let me hear you say that "they have no right to say...."
It's very easy to be up in the cheap seats and second guess every move made by the players on the field, but, when you are the one out there, you call it as you see it.
If anyone truly believes they have the right path to bring Crestwood back, ask to be on a committe, volunteer, write it on this blog (and sign your name.) Until you are willing to do that simple, small thing, you are a very large part of the problem, not the solution!
We need solidarity here, not back stabbing, nor vile remarks about anyone, so can we please see what we can do to further Crestwood instead of sniping at each other?
Just my opinion!
Tom Ford
Tom, I agree with what you say, but it doesn't seem like solidarity is going to happen here.
My opinion is that we have enough "in fighting" and I don't think it is going to go away; but I don't understand why the Suncrest Call has to be a major participant. It seems the other newspapers always manage to say things on both sides and just stick to the facts on all sides. I know finger pointing is not right, but since it started, the Suncrest Call always gave out bad vibs, played favorites, and seems to enjoy doing it.
The people in this city don't need someone stirring up the pot and the editor of a newspaper has the responsibility to see that he gives equal respect to both sides of all issues. And that's not the same as "throwing a bone to the opposition" occasionally to throw us off the original intent.
I get Mr. Anthony's intent and I don't like it at all. That's my opinion and maybe not worth anything but I still have a right to say it. Those who disagree, that's OK with me too.
Sandy Grave
Trueblood disagreed publicly for the record and did not hide behind anonymous. That is the difference that Mr. Ford and Ms. Grave understand and agree with
It is my understanding that the new rules of from the Civil Service Commission would allow for an elected official to serve at the same time a relative was an employee of the City.
I believe that the employee should be allowed to stay but the other family member not allowed to run for office.
Here are the changes - remember the board of aldermen are the ultimate supervisors of city employees and approve all department budgets:
It shall be the policy of the City of Crestwood not to employ any member of an employee’s
immediate family in the same department or in any capacity, which will result in an employee
supervising a member of his immediately family. This policy applies to promotions, demotions,
transfers, reinstatements, and new employees. If two employees marry while working in the
same department, one must transfer to another department if both are to continue working for
the City. If the City institutes reorganization, which changes departmental boundaries, an
employee who would be working within the same department as, or supervising a member of,
his immediate family must transfer to another department. If this is not possible, the employee
will not be subject to dismissal due to the City’s reorganization. For purposes of definition,
immediate family means spouse, grandfather, grandmother, father, mother, son, daughter,
brother, sister, uncle, aunt, nephew, or niece, by blood or marriage. Employees who would be
affected by this provision who are permanent employees at the time this policy is adopted shall
be exempt from this provision.
A. No person shall be employed by the City or be appointed or re-appointed to any office,
whether such office is an appointive office or appointment is to fill a vacancy in any
elective office, who is related as the husband or wife, brother or sister, mother or father,
son or daughter, son-in-law or daughter-in-law or brother-in-law or sister-in-law of any
person holding an elective or appointed office in the city.
B. Any person employed by the city or holding an appointive office in the city, who shall
have a relative, within the degrees mentioned in this section, elected to any office in the
city shall automatically be removed from his position with the city on the first of the
month following the qualification of his elected or appointed relative.
C. The provisions of this section may be suspended for good cause in any case by
resolution of the board of aldermen, approved by three-fourths of all the members of the
board.
D. These rules shall be included in the city’s candidate form so that those seeking elective
office in the city are fully informed of the consequences of their actions on relatives
employed by the city.
(Ref. Article V, Sec. 2-141 of the Crestwood Municipal Code)
A. No person shall be offered employment by the City or appointed to any office of the City
(including any appointment made for the purpose of filling a vacancy for elective office)
who is related as the husband, wife, brother-in-law, or sister-in-law of any person then
holding a City elective office.
B. This section shall not be construed to terminate or otherwise limit the continued
employment of any employee of the City or appointed official of the City who holds such
employment or office immediately prior to the time his or her relative of the degree described in subsection (1) of this section is duly elected, qualified or appointed, and
takes is sworn into his elected or appointed office such relative’s elective office. This
section also shall not be construed to prohibit or otherwise limit the City, solely due to
the relationship between any employee or appointed official and any such relative then
holding a City elective office, from considering for promotion or advancement or from
promoting or advancing such employee or appointed official in accordance with the
City’s standard policies and normal procedures.
C. The City permits family members (parent, spouse, child, sibling, grandparent, grandchild,
aunt, uncle, cousin, in-law, or step relative) to work for the City. The City will not,
however, consider, accept or allow employment of a family member whose employment
would result in a supervisor/subordinate relationship or possible conflict of interest.
The last comment is a sticky wicket: (elected official with relative who is a city employee). Could be cause for official to recuse him/herself on occasion, or would it be often? Now as for recusal, did it or did it not happen, did it work, on other matters (private swim club) and is it effective??? How can we be sure? Who will be the judge?
As we are seeing now, there have been "many" elected city officials and appointed board members, all members of the private swim club, who have served and been directly involved with the zoning, appropriations and direction of this troublesome TIF. All which is now in question and ripe for scrutiny, as well it should be. The profit and the approval are distinctly curious/dubious, not to mention the officials who may or may not have recused themselves. Residents who do not belong to this club owe noone an apology for wanting full disclosure. City Employees involved are gone. Former City Attorney gone. Former city officials gone.
Gone, but not forgotten.
Perhaps, when an official is sworn in, they should swear "I shall recuse myself from any and all matters whose outcome could benefit me, my family, my associates or benefit anything to which I am connected, in any way. And, if I find myself recusing more than voting, I will resign."
However, who is going to police and verify this? The board has often had a majority of pool members. Way too convenient. And will it up the road become a bone of contention when something approved comes into contention and this the matter itself and recusal turn into a debate.
In other words, looks like the Civil Service revision will be thoroughly discussed and questions asked before its passing. It has waited this long, it can wait a little longer. One thing, the Aldermen should take all politics out of the equasion and remember boards up the road when they are long gone must deal with this very important document.
Poster 5:20, right on, there is no rush for this to be changed for change sake! Will changes prevent employees from dating each other? Will it prevent anyone from dating anyone who works in any function for the City?
That also could be a sticky wicket that could end up a court case.
5:20 PM Yes for sure "take all politics out of the equasion". Amen, Amen.
The majority of people who are employed at the City of Crestwood applied for their positions because they needed jobs to assist them in their day to day living and to support families. Most are not related to each other and do not even know one another.
Politicians run for office to serve the public or for other reasons which have little to do with money. They all have day jobs.
Therefore, being part of a Civil Service System to protect employees from politics or unfair tactics is paramount.
I don't see any reason for anyone to get upset or make an issue out of who does the minutes, or split hairs over every little period or exclamation mark in the manual.
I do believe that the board of aldermen should take time to digest it all. I am not in any hurry to get it done, but I just want it done and done right.
I am totally 100%^ for the rights of the employees because Civil Service was all but dead and buried until this mayor decided to do something about it. Yes whether you like him or not. Nobody for years cared until now. So, yes, I can wait. I just want whatever is fair. Fair is good! And Fair is what we didn't have.
Good people shouldn't have to go home at night and worry if they are going to have a job the next day because they may not fit in some CA's plan or because some politician wants his daughter in a job and someone gets fired or demoted because of it.
So take all the time you need; just get it done for all the good people I know and have yet to meet in City Hall.
Thanks.
Sandy Grave
If the civil service document protects employees from politicians, why doesn't it state their personnel records cannot be viewed by politicians? Hmmmmm? After all, the board worked on it for a full year.
7:48 AM Maybe the civil service rules SHOULD state that elected officials cannot view personnel files. But that should be a GIVEN since these documents are suppose to remain private. Where did that statement come from and how is it relevent?
This civil service board issue and the minutes and the meetings and everything else is being blegeoned to death for no reason except that the Suncrest Call and a few ill-advised people want to make a Federal case out of it.
As usual, somebody is trying to make waves to get the public all upset over nothing more than a board composed of citizens, who were selected to get the Civil Service Rules and Regulations updated and protect employees.
I suggest that perhaps we should do what was done years ago, and get a representative from the Missouri State Civil Service Commission to come to Crestwood and assist us. But that would still not stop some from ripping this whole issue apart, especially the Suncrest Call.
When Civil Service was originally started, we had several people from the State come and speak to us. Of course, to witness how some posture themselves on this blog, "who cares, we just like stirring it up"! And stirring it up indeed is what they do best.
Thank you.
Sandy Grave
I agree. If the civil service document lists the rights of employees, it should include the privacy of their personnel records.
To correct Ms. Grave, Mike Anthony did not write the editorial. Burke Wasson did. I've always found him to be accurate and fair. But if Sandy has any gripes, she should direct them at him. And the editorial blames the administration. Not Ms. Duchild or civil service board.
Burke Wasson is listed on the Call's website as Staff Reporter and he did write the editorial. Correct, he did not attack the civil service board or its members.
10:32 AM Thanks so very much for your info.
But doesn't Mr. Anthony have to approve of what Mr. Wasson writes? Doesn't Mr. Anthony have a responsibility to check what is printed or does he allow his writers/reporters to approve their own work?
And if the editorial blames the administration, that's nothing new because Anthony & Company is always giving his views on this administration - but not the last one; just this one. What I get a kick out of is that who really cares about his prejudicial editorials? He acts like they come from God!!. He and his staff don't give opinions, they pass judgement on who they like and don't like. It's not good journalism and you know it, because by stroking someone and slamming somebody else, he creates bad feelings and chaos. That's all! That's taking sides and that is not right unless he has his degree in political science or is an expert; otherwise he's just an editor who wants people to believe things "his way"; exactly like Don Greer and Company.
So, then tell me why was Ms. Duchild pointed out by the Call?
As far as speaking to anyone at the Suncrest Call myself, I did one better. I spoke with Ms. Duchild and asked her what was going on and she has no idea.
I do thank you for getting back to me and appreciate your time. But my research stops here. I just hope that Civil Service comes back to protect the employees. That's all I really care about.
Thanks for your consideration.
Sandy Grave
I just looked at the editorial and it does not point out Ms. Duchild. Where are you getting this from Ms. Grave? Ms. Duchild’s name is in the stories the CALL did on the civil service board, but none of them criticize her. In fact one of the instances I remember reading in a story is that she sent a statement to the CALL. Are you going to criticize them now for publishing her own words? That she sent to the paper? Wasson’s editorial also says he’s not criticizing the city or any individuals. Just pointing out where something went wrong and why a work session is happening. I don’t call that criticism. I call that holding our government accountable. Ms. Grave, if you’re going to criticize the CALL, at least do what they’ve done this week and get the facts right.
take it easy, take it easy
Good grief! Back to high school again! He said, She said, but what's really at the heart of all this?
Burke Wasson is doing a much better job than his boss did, so unless that changes this week, I'm willing to give him a chance.
Shall we move on to better thing's?
Tom Ford
Tom,
The city just posted a Civil Service Board meeting for tomorrow night at 6 pm in the fire department conference room. It’s too late for us to get that notice in the paper as we’ve already gone to press. Perhaps you could post that on your blog to let people know? Maybe a few of them can get to city hall an hour before the Board of Aldermen meeting. Good to see that they’re finally putting that in the Web site.
Burke Wasson
Call Newspapers
2:39 PM My Dear Beloved Blogger, AT 9:24 PM January 20th Karen Trueblood stated on this blog that Ms. Duchild was "trying to get her name in the paper" and also stated that she was "the one who is trying to reinstate nepotism and trying to push it through without public debate". So I DEFINITELY AM TRYING TO GET MY FACTS STRAIGHT AS YOU STATED.
Reread Karen Trueblood's comment on this very blog and see what you come up with!
Are you saying that Karen Trueblood is not being truthful?
Sorry if you are upset with me and sorry if you take offense but maybe you should calm down a little.
If you like the Suncrest Call, by all means keep reading it. If you think that they have ALWAYS been open and above board and have never said things to enforce their political buddies it makes no difference to me. I just gave you my view based on what I have read in the past, since they started the paper and based on what I got out of Karen Trueblood's words.
However, if The Call's views are THE SAME AS your views, I guess that's the difference. I happen to like this administration and The Call doesn't - NOT TO SAY THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION DOES EVERYTHING RIGHT. NO ONE DOES?
However, The Call has always played favorites, if you go back and check. Mr. Anthony has always disliked this administration and has paid homage to the Fagan and Robertson administration and that's not fair journalism. Robertson was the one who got Mr. Anthony started. Need I say more?
This mayor got rid of Greer and I am proud of him for doing it and that was the first step to getting equality for the employees. The Fagan and Robertson administration EMBRACED GREER AND COULD CARE LESS ABOUT THE EMPLOYEES AND WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THEM.
So..if you review all the editions of the Call, you will never find anything said that was against Fagan or Robertson or Greer for that matter.
That's all in the past and what a past it was; and although Mr. Anthony had plenty to criticize then, you never heard one bad word about any of THEM. Why? Because he played sides and that's what I don't like.
I am really trying to "get my facts straight". If you know me at all, you know that there is no way I would put my name on anything I didn't believe in. I am a citizen of Crestwood too and love it very much. And I don't like people who come in and take advantage of our employees or our residents.
That's why you can read the Call if that's what you want; I had my fill of it and let's just let it go at that. OK?
Thanks again for your patience.
Sandy Grave
Those are comments Karen Trueblood said on this blog. Not in any news story I know of. I don't remember reading anything about Ms. Duchild pushing through nepotism in any stories.
I hear you Sandy. You make some great points. Just think a lot of your opinion on this is about the past and not focusing on the problem with the minutes now in the city. Just because the Call's been wrong before doesn't mean they can't be right now. Tom is right. Give Burke a chance.
Thanks 6:39 PM. I appreciate what you say and it has caused me to "pause"! I have always given people a break although those who don't know me very well would think otherwise. You are a very nice person and you are correct with some of your statements.
But Karen's remarks on this blog through me off considerably and I guess if I wanted to I could ask her what she meant regarding Martha Duchild, etc.
Karen gets upset and so do I about things and I can understand how people can be cruel, to her and to Tim. But Neoptism? And what's wrong with Martha Duchild? Martha speaks her mind like Karen does. So I'm at a loss here.
Yes, I understand your words. I judged Mr. Anthony and company, by his track record. And his track record has been bad. I've seen him "ram" this administration and soft-pedal the last. All of a sudden NOW that all his so-called buddies with the exception of maybe two or three are all gone, we are to believe that he is going to be a "Quieter/Gentler Editor and Chief.
It's our choice. Do we judge him for his track record or judge him now that he is playing with a new deck of cards?
I say people who are giving us the news have a responsiblity to report both sides of everything and a good reporter should do it no matter who is in power, the good people or the no so good people. And everybody knows if you sleep with an enemy, you better watch your back. We shall see. I want to forget the past too but for right now, I will "walk softly and carry a big stick".
Thanks again kind blogger for your insight, your patience and consideration.
Blessings.
Sandy Grave
What is the total amount of insurance money has been paid out to former City of Crestwood employees for both lawsuits and sexual harassment charges?
How much is our insurance premium?
Which lawyers make money over all of the lawsuits and sexual charges?
Who is benefiting by not having a Civil Service Board?
How many Mayors and Alderman have gone to jail in St. Louis County for violating code of conduct?
I guess the $1 million dollars bond will cover our Mayor and BOA in another lawsuit!
It is not out of their billfold.
Was there a civil service board during the Robertson/Fagan years?
If not, why not?
6:19 am Civil Service was passed by the board of aldermen back in 1972-3. It was active while Dale Rieth was CA and then while Alan Miller was CA. After that, it started to be ignored and discounted more and more through the years. Finally it became moot to even have any meetings, any minutes, or file grievances because the administration didn't follow through on anything brought forth by the last two Chairmen.
Mr. Greer, CA, the opportunist that he is, saw "an opportunity" to change things his way and become even more powerful and have even more control over people. Finally he could have "his Kingdom".
He had the aldermen in his front pocket and now he had the employees in his back pocket. What a guy!!!!!
Sandy Grave
the civil service board recommends removing the prohibition against aldermen being related to city employees. that kind of relationship is known as nepotism. Martha duchild appeared before the board and presented their work. read the doc - sheesh
2:47, I'm looking at the document and it says "No person shall be offered employment by the City or appointed to any office of the City (including any appointment made for the purpose of filling a vacancy for elective office) who is related as the husband, wife, brother-in-law, or sister-in-law of any person then holding a City elective office."
That's a good start, but it's not the whole enchilada. It doesn't prohibit sons or daughters or even brothers or sisters of elected officials to be employed by the city. Wouldn't you call THAT nepotism? Mommy or daddy can run for alderman now and hire their kids. If that isn't nepotism, you tell me what is.
That issue can be addressed with the Civil Service Board and the Board of Aldermen.
What really concerns me is that this board (if there was one???)was allowed to languish under previous administrations.
past is past, cant do anything about that, we can only effect the now and the future, that is where our focus should be.
so you are saying a mayor could get his family to run and control the whole board of aldermen? or an alderman or mayor could manipulate the hiring of a family member for police chief??? that sounds like a peachey idea to me. folks, that's a step in the WRONG direction.
Past is past and it's the past that put Crestwood where it IS.
Don't duck the issue. Why was the civil service board allowed to languish?
I agree that it is a shame that previous administrations allowed civil service to languish. And yes past is past; I agree with that too. But these new civil service board people have got to start from scratch and people are already having a "fit" regarding minutes, about nepotism etc. before they even know what is going on. Try starting over with nothing to go on. Nepotism? You are rushing to conclusions my friends.
I can guarantee you one thing, nepotism will be addressed in it's fullest. Nepotism by definition is all those things that we already now that define it. If everybody thinks we have to delineate every detail of the definition of nepotism, it will take 15 pages.
People are so afraid that employees will be hired by relatives and the whole lot, that they are already up in arms over this issue. Why? How stupid to even go there.
Remember we are talking about EMPLOYEES, not merchants or getting permits to people.
Again let people do their jobs. Show me the person who is making an issue out of this and I will show you a person who wants to negate what Civil Service is suppose to do in the first place by making people "give up" on it.
This whole nepotism issue is nothing more than trying to get people all upset and to start the manure factory going again. That's all it is.
And for those of who who play politics, sorry, but had Tom Fagan regenerated the Civil Service Board again, nothing would be said.
Thank you for your consideration.
Sandy Grave
9:45 am It was allowed to languish because Leichliter hated to deal with it and refused to address the issues brought forth by the two previous civil service chairmens until they finally gave up, and then Greer buried it because he wanted to rule the city with his own people and had no intentions of listening to any rules but his own.
who ever allowed it to languish is gone, not ducking issue just donut see it as a smart use of energy. you can spend all you want on the past but unless you are following a political agenda, who cares about the then, we need to work on the NOW.
Sandy and 10:16AM blogger, thank you both very much for your input.
I am concerned about nepotism, indeed. I am also very concerned about the fact that the civil service board was allowed to languish.
I think it is vital, in light of what has happened in the recent past, that the civil service rules are reviewed and updated. I agree with you wholeheartedly Sandy, that had Tom Fagan revived the Civil Service Board, nothing would be said.
I would sincerely encourage those who have issues with this civil service board's work to contact them and/or your alderman.
According to this week's issue of the SunCrest Call, in an article by Burke Wasson:
"Mayor Roy Robinson said an aldermanic work session to discuss those proposed changes is scheduled for 7 p.m. Tuesday, Jan. 30, at the Crestwood Government Center, 1 Detjen Drive. The Civil Service Board has proposed the new civil-service rules and regulations to conform with recent federal and state laws and current city policies. Board members Martha Duchild, Gretchen Huston and Catherine Barnes note that no such document has been approved in more than 10 years when they say that civil-service employees need new rules and regulations."
Sandy and 10:16AM blogger, thank you both very much for your input.
I am concerned about nepotism, indeed. I am also very concerned about the fact that the civil service board was allowed to languish.
I think it is vital, in light of what has happened in the recent past, that the civil service rules are reviewed and updated. I agree with you wholeheartedly Sandy, that had Tom Fagan revived the Civil Service Board, nothing would be said.
I would sincerely encourage those who have issues with this civil service board's work to contact them and/or your alderman.
According to this week's issue of the SunCrest Call, in an article by Burke Wasson:
"Mayor Roy Robinson said an aldermanic work session to discuss those proposed changes is scheduled for 7 p.m. Tuesday, Jan. 30, at the Crestwood Government Center, 1 Detjen Drive. The Civil Service Board has proposed the new civil-service rules and regulations to conform with recent federal and state laws and current city policies. Board members Martha Duchild, Gretchen Huston and Catherine Barnes note that no such document has been approved in more than 10 years when they say that civil-service employees need new rules and regulations."
3:27 PM
I think others who are attacking a civil service board member are following an agenda...
3:27 PM Thanks again for your comments. It is a shame that we had no good leadership in Crestwood for so long. Leaders who were concerned enough about the employees to make sure they were protected for the last ten years. But it is true.
Part of a city administrator's job is not only working for the mayor and aldermen for the betterment of a city, he is also tagged with the responsibility to see that employees are kept out of "harms" way and protected. If a CA can't do that, they are in the wrong business.
However, if he/she let's that happen, there should be some recourse for the employee to be able to go to his supervisor or the civil service commission and file a grievance. By the mid 1980's, that was all a dead issue.
So Instead - many of us had to get our own lawyers to get justice.
But several people who were fired or demoted under Don Greer didn't have the money to hire a lawyer and left Crestwood, without new jobs to go to. That's cruel and undeserved punishment for some of us who had worked 10 to 15 to as many as 30 years for Crestwood. But it happened.
Employees are just people who need a job to support their families. They shouldn't be dragged into submission by department heads, or city administrators, or any elected persons, who don't care about anything except themselves.
Bad employees can be fired but it goes like this. Employees are reviewed every year. Those department heads who evaluate their employees who do not perform well, can discuss these things and if they still don't do their jobs, they can be let go eventually. My neighbor says "oh well that happens everywhere" or "that's just politics". I say "that doesn't make it right and I don't think honest employees should have to put up with it". Try finding a job when you get to be over 45!!!!!
Crestwood is a wonderful place to work, live and play. Every day that we have a good employee working for Crestwood is a blessing. You can say what you want about the firefighters, police and the clerical people, but I have seen how hard they work. And I don't want to see any of them have to worry about their jobs because some insane person comes along and wants his own people and to H>>> with everybody else.
Support your city and it's employees. We are great here and we deserve people who believe in us. You want to be part of the County? Ha! You are just a number to the county. If you call them for anything, the first thing they do is see if you paid your taxes.
We will stay a good community if we all make sure that we treat each other with respect; and the employees are part of it too.
Thank you for your consideration.
Sandy Grave
People with questions about this document have an agenda? Are you saying a secret group somehow made the board create a document that has some questionable content just so we could create problems? How is it our fault? I guess most of the aldermen must have an agenda according to you because they definitely did not feel the document was complete and one of them said he did not want to put his approval on it until it was complete! I suppose someone's agenda made him say that.
Answers to your questions 9:15PM blogger:
"People with questions about this document have an agenda?" No
"Are you saying a secret group somehow made the board create a document that has some questionable content just so we could create problems?" No
"How is it our fault?" It's not
"I guess most of the aldermen must have an agenda according to you because they definitely did not feel the document was complete and one of them said he did not want to put his approval on it until it was complete!" I never said that, although I can't help but wonder what some of the aldermen are thinking sometimes.
City of Crestwood officials just kept everything in their four walls just like families do or at their private pool!
The public was kept in the dark until Tom Ford started this blog.
People were not involved or questioning things.
Sandra Grave was trying to tell everyone what really was going on at City Hall but no one would listen. We would see her crying at City Hall. Everyone shut their doors and left on their answering machines.
I am amazed how she survived at the City of Crestwood when she was told by Don Greer "I am your Civil Service Board."
Let's change the name of the Civil Service Board to Crestwood Swim Club Service Board. They run the city anyway they please and do whatever they want in the city.
The law never pertains to them.
What law have they obeyed?
Back in the 1990's the city hired a company called Brennan and Thomson to review all the position descriptions of all the classified Civil Service employees.
All employees met with these people individually and discussed their jobs and explained their duties. Notes were taken and evaluations made. I have no idea how much this cost the city but I know it wasn't cheap.
Leichliter, not loving personnel, gave the job of overseeing this study and evaluation to guess who? Don Greer.
The two people from Brennan and Thomson sat in the Conference Room and did their work and they were there for several weeks, if not longer.
When it came time to put this whole thing together, the two delegates in charge got so frustrated they were at their wits end. Why? Because every day Don Greer was in the conference room telling them how to do their jobs and critiquing everything they were doing.
The one individual came up to me and told me how frustrating Greer was to deal with because he wanted things done "his" way.
Just another fly in the ointment of getting anything done to get civil service back.
After that fiasco, all of a sudden Greer came up with his own complex, elaborate, and sophisticated study. After all, he is an authority on everything and a legend in his own mind!!!
If there was a final report from Brennan and Thomson, 70% of it had to be Greer's work. I never seen people more upset than these two individuals who had the expertise to do a good job but once again ended up having interference from the "pro".
Maybe there is still a copy of it somewhere. But when he took over that study, to me that was the stake in the heart of any civil service rules and regulations. I also know that the city had to come up with more money in the budget because all these new (CORE VALUES) and job descriptions meant higher salaries.
Just thought you would want to know.
Sandy Grave
10:30 PM God Bless your sweet heart for your kind words. I appreciate your humanity and consideration. But if there is one thing I can still do for Crestwood is support the return of civil service for the employees. I just want to help, that's all.
ALSO, if I can reply to those bloggers who make jokes about the Fire Department on this blog. Just wait until you get sick and don't have to wait for Mehlville to come to your home and resusitate you. You might be grateful we have our own guys with a practically zero response time.
Thank God we have our own Police Department. Just wait until a cop comes up to your door in the middle of the night to tell you that you left your garage door open and to see if everything is OK. We are lucky.
The Public Works department cleans our streets from snow faster and quicker than anybody in the County.
We have a wonderful clerical staff and our finance people work hard every day.
So please help them get the protection from politics and future master manipulators and support civil service being brought back to Crestwood employees.
Sandy Grave
You all know this is a fairly small town right? I don't think everyone can have an "agenda," there isn't room!
Tom Ford
Sandy - that's why we want the document to be done correctly! The employees definitely need protection from politicians. We're in favor of that too - but the document needs to be complete and correct. Why doesn't it protect their personnel files from politicians? Why would we want politicians related to employees? Have you looked at East st. Louis lately?
7:07 PM I understand perfectly where you are coming from and I agree with you 100%. I think that the Civil Service review should be done correctly and I am not the least bit concerned that it won't be.
I am happy with those who are on the Civil Service Commission and I am so happy that things will be done fairly. They are really working extremely hard to put it all together.
No, I definitely wouldn't want personnel files to get into the hands of politicians.
I also was very concerned several months ago when some aldermen tried to negate Martha Duchild's appointment to the Civil Service Board to punish her for being what Kelleher called "confrontational".
I call it saying what is on one's mind, which Kelleher does every chance he can. I contend that if you are going to throw it out there, you should be able to take it in return. Plus it isn't his call to gauge the criteria of who is or isn't good enough to be on a board just because he got his feelings hurt.
I would like to see somewhere in the Civil Service Rules:
1. That in order to demote employees, the CA has to explain it in writing. And when not explained in writing, it gives the employee the opportunity to file a grievance. That used to be included under Section 18 in the manual.
2. I would also like to see something regarding sexual harrassment of employees by "elected officials" on city hall premises.
3. I would also like to see something stating that department heads/supervisors do not engage in sexual misconduct with employees on city hall premises.
Thanks for your honesty and your input. It is very much appreciated.
Sandy Grave
"confrontational" - If it wasn't for the fact that an Alderman missed the meeting during the first vote, I doubt if she would have been appointed. Alderman Kelleher was not the only Alderman that felt Ms. Duchild was "confontational" and NOT solution oriented! You would think that comment was warrented if you have seen how she handles situations.
"Solution oriented"???? Where did you pull that from? How many on the board of aldermen were solution oriented?
Oh, that's right. They were busy raising taxes and trying to build a new police building.
Nobody said Kelleher was the only one who was against the appointment of Martha Duchild. AND
Oh Boy aren't we lucky that Mr. Kelleher wasn't there. In fact how many meetings did he attend? Not many, thank God. Oh that's right, he is on to bigger and better things now. Now he can act even more SUPERIOR. Who knows, he might end up being a millionaire soon and move out of Crestwood.
He did nothing for anybody. He can boost all he wants but he let his people down. All he wanted was the prestige and the people at St. E's gave it to him.
The last "empty" comment just goes to show you that that person doesn't know what they are talking about. Alderman Kelleher was not the Alderman absent. Talk about not getting your facts straight before mouthing off!
I'll raise a "non-alcoholic" toast to that!
11:00 am NO Get YOUR facts straight. Aldlerman Kelleher was excused so many times it isn't even funny, it was ridiculous. Go up to city hall and look at the roll call and get your head out of the sand. He had bigger and better things to do trying to be a big shot. Talk about an I am better than you attitude, it was him. He knew he was pursuing other adventures, why did he ever make a commitment to be an alderman in the first place. He just needed to add alderman to his "portfolio" that's all. It's all about trying to be important and wanting to always be better than everyone else. He was always out of town on business. YOU get your facts straight.
ouch!
I'm thankful for Alderman Kelleher. Really. You know why? Because when I saw how he acted on the dias with other aldermen and the mayor, and even some constituents, I thought to myself, wow, I REALLY don't want to act like that. So, (and it's not easy-I have my bad days) I try to be a little bit nicer, a little bit friendlier, and little bit more respectful to people everyday.
With Kelleher gone, what will happen to the bowtie neckwear trend in Crestwood? Maybe Bland could start wearing bowties.
He seems more intelligent than that. He's appears rather more stable than the "Look-at-me!" and "Hear me Roar" type.
sounds like their concern that she wouldn't be a good addition to the civil service board was warranted - she didn't know the sunshine law requires minutes of meetings????
She must be effective if she gets to you that much!
Personally, if the board members are suppose to stay out of personnel matters, I don't even know why they are allowed to approve the civil service board members. And if for some reason they are suppose to, why didn't they submit names to the mayor for the positions.
Exactly. It does not give me a comforting feeling knowing that this stellar board approves civil service rules.
To all of you who are so concerned about the Civil S. Code. Why not just check out several other cities and see how theirs came about and those kind of details. Things to make you more comfortable. How it works, etc.
I have yet to read on this particular blog any real sensible comments. Just a lot of people trying to out punch each other.
11:56 PM
Good observation. Thanks for your post.
It's funny how for years, when civil service was almost dead in the water, nobody cared enough to honor the importance of it, but now that this mayor wants to revive it, it's a big deal and every little thing is made to look like a catastrophe.
The so called problems are not really that great that they can't be fixed. What kills everything is the nit picking about the people on the commission and the minutes, and nepotism and one thing and/or another. It's so tiring and unnecessary. And it is so obvious that people just want to get on their muscle and create more problems than what they already have.
Let's just hope that the board of aldermen and the commission get things done. Doesn't anyone care about the employees. Sounds to me as if it's a fight between two married people who argue all the time and the only ones getting hurt are the children, in this case the employees.
Can't everybody settle down on this or is this going to be a fillabuster where the board of aldermen turns commission people inside out to teach someone a lesson about appointing people they don't like.
If you read this blog, you can't help wondering.
Can do - we'll wait for you to pronounce from on high when we are allowed to have a thought or care about anything. Bbye!
YOU get your facts straight.
12:09 PM, January 26, 2007
How about Alderman Breeding missing months of meetings due to being out of town for work????? Getting advances on his pay. I guess since you think Alderman Breeding is on the mayor's side, that makes his absence ok.
10:08 AM Is Alderman Breeding on the mayor's side? OK if you say so it must be true. What side is Alderman Kelleher on. Don't answer that, we already know the answer.
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