The TDD board meeting for Crestwood Point has been set!
I received a call today telling me that the Crestwood Point TDD meeting (Kohl's parking lot/swimming pool) has been set for Thursday, February 1, 2007 at 3:00PM at City hall.
The caller invited me to pass the information along to as many Crestwood Citizens as I can, hence this post. If you know of someone who does not read this blog (what!) please pass on the information as we need a strong showing in the audience on this important issue!
We have been all over the reasons not to grant the THF Realty the $850,000.00 they are asking for, so I won't belabor them here. Please try to attend and put your thoughts forth!
In the words of Elliot Davis "You paid for it" (if you shop at Kohl's) if this goes through!
Tom Ford
NO.279
The caller invited me to pass the information along to as many Crestwood Citizens as I can, hence this post. If you know of someone who does not read this blog (what!) please pass on the information as we need a strong showing in the audience on this important issue!
We have been all over the reasons not to grant the THF Realty the $850,000.00 they are asking for, so I won't belabor them here. Please try to attend and put your thoughts forth!
In the words of Elliot Davis "You paid for it" (if you shop at Kohl's) if this goes through!
Tom Ford
NO.279
posted by Crestwood Independent at 16:46
69 Comments:
Thanks for the info, Tom. It's just too bad the city can't find time to post this info on the website.
:(
Who was the caller?
What happened to open government?
Who will be required to attend the Kohl's TDD board meeting?
What is the agenda?
Will Ellen Dailey be invited since she was on this Commission?
If Ellen Dailey will be absent, who will replace her for the TDD commissioner spot?
2 votes by City of Crestwood which is Mayor Roy Robinson and Alderman Miguel
2 votes by THF
2 votes by Armstrong Teasdale
Sure is a democracy!
Who will be taking the Kohl's TDD minutes?
THF?
Armstrong Teasdale?
Mayor Robinson?
Alderman Miguel?
Call Newspaper?
or No minutes?
Tom,
I have never shopped at Kohl's since this whole mess has been made public.
I will not or nor will I ever support an all white private pool supported by sales tax so our public officials can swim free on taxpayer's money.
There goes those racist remarks again....
8:33PM blogger: Give it up, good grief what "raciest remarks"? You have gone a bit over the edge here, haven't you?
Tom Ford
T - Tax
D - Deceive
D - Dissemble
Before WW II, it was not unusual to see the following sign in Hotel Windows "Jews and Blacks are not allowed".
Do we want to go back to those times?
It will not be safe for anyone!
When you discriminate with taxpayer's money, then this is a form of racism.
Which race is superior?
Crestwood Swim Members
Rosebrook Stockholders
Citizens of Crestwood who want the private pool open to the all citizens.
GREAT! Let's find out who shredded what documnets.
My money is on the former CA\Police Chief and his Finance Girl\Social Companion.
http://ccin.menlopark.org:81/archive2/3587.html
Every taxpayer and citizen of Menlo Park should be outraged by the approval of a 5 year lease of the new Burgess Park Pool to a private swimming group headed by Tim Sheeper.
This pool was funded with monies from the Measure T bond issue. There was certainly no mention during the campaign for passage of Measure T, that facilities built with these funds would be privatized and Menlo Park citizens would be subjected to usage hours and fees dictated by a group other than the City.
Was any of the Whitecliff Bond money ever used to build Crestwood Swim Club?
Why was $600,000 mentioned in the Whitecliff Paperwork for the City Hall's parking lot?
When will the next bond issue go to pay for the expansion of Crestwood Swim Club parking lot?
What papers were shredded?
Did the papers show how the $750,000 from the Interservice Fund was moved into a private account?
A US Bank official may have a copy of the original real estate deeds of the Kohl's property!
Tom,
How about interviewing Bob Wuebbles?
Bob Wuebbles has told several people how the $750,000 was in the Interservice Fund before his car accident with his daughter.
How much did former Alderman Gary Vincent receive from THF for the old Crestwood Swimming Pool?
$750,000 was mentioned in the BOA minutes!
http://www.pmct.org/articles/0506/vouchers/index.html
President Carter strictly vetoed any idea of tax credits for private education. But as far back as 1982, an article appeared in the New York Times, written by the late Al Shanker, who at the time was president of the AFT. He stated, "There is no more reason to pay for private education than there is to pay for a private swimming pool or a private automobile for those who do not use public facilities." Tax credits would mean more and more students in private or religious schools and less and less for public education which public taxes should fund.
What are the tax credits that Crestwood Swim Club receive for being a non-for-profit entity?
What was the total public school tax dollars that was lost due to the Kohl's TIF, TDD, and CID?
How many years will it take to make up these lost public school tax dollars?
23 or more years?
There are too many questions to be answered for some bloggers here. Why ask Mr. Ford, or anyone who reads this? Go up to City Hall, or better yet try asking questions at the BOA meeting. I recommend going to City Hall unless you send your requests in writing before a BOA meeting if you want any answers.
No one on this blog will know these answers.
"How about interviewing Bob Wuebbles?"
I would love to talk to Bob some time. If anyone has his phone number, call me at 341-2307, and I will call him!
Tom Ford
If the Transportation Development District is under the jursidiction of State of Missouri, why is the Kohl's TDD and CID commissioners not following the Missouri Sunshine Law?
http://www.ago.mo.gov/sunshinelaw/sunshinelaw.htm
Missouri’s commitment to openness in government is clearly stated in Section 610.011 of the Sunshine Law: “It is the public policy of this state that meetings, records, votes, actions, and deliberations of public governmental bodies be open to the public unless otherwise provided by law. Sections 610.010 to 610.200 shall be liberally construed and their exceptions strictly construed to promote this public policy.”
The law sets out the specific instances when a meeting, record or vote may be closed, while stressing these exceptions are to be strictly interpreted to promote the public policy of openness.
Public meetings, including meetings conducted by telephone, Internet or other electronic means, are to be held at reasonably convenient times and must be accessible to the public. Meetings should be held in facilities that are large enough to accommodate anticipated attendance by the public and accessible to persons with disabilities.
After reading the Missouri Sunshine Law as posted on the Missouri Attorney General's website, please explain how the Kohl's TDD, CID, and TIF meetings are not following these guidelines?
There is a pattern with the Kohl's project to not follow the law!
http://www.ago.mo.gov/sunshinelaw/sunshinelaw.htm
At least 24 hours (excluding weekends and holidays) before a public meeting, the public body must prominently post a notice of the meeting in its principal office. If there is no such office, the public body should post the notice at the meeting place. The notice must include:
At least 24 hours (excluding weekends and holidays) before a public meeting, the public body must prominently post a notice of the meeting in its principal office. If there is no such office, the public body should post the notice at the meeting place. The notice must include:
At least 24 hours (excluding weekends and holidays) before a public meeting, the public body must prominently post a notice of the meeting in its principal office. If there is no such office, the public body should post the notice at the meeting place. The notice must include:
Time of meeting;
Date of meeting;Place of meeting;
Tentative agenda of an open meeting; and
Whether the meeting is open or closed.
If exceptional circumstances prevent the public body from posting notice 24 hours in advance or prevent the meeting from being held at a convenient time or in a place reasonably accessible to the public, the reasons should be stated in the meeting’s minutes.
Can we pass an ordinance for our Mayor and BOA to pass this online quiz to educate them on the Missouri Sunshine Law!
https://www.ago.mo.gov/cgi-bin/quizzes/SunshineLaw.cgi
http://www.ago.mo.gov/sunshinelaw/courtdecisions.htm
Court decisions regarding Missouri Sunshine law
Tonight, I will send an email to the Missouri Attorney General's office to obtain an opinion of the Kohl's TDD, CID, and TIF.
8:33 AM, January 30, 2007
Yes, by all means, ask the board of alderman. See what answers you get.
Tom, why don't you leave Bob Wuebbels alone while he is undergoing chemotherapy...
I hope to see you all on Thursday @3:00pm. You have good questions and comments. If not, please contact your Aldermen with your concerns.
Get to know them! They each have a phone #, email and a home (in Crestwood!). I know my Aldermen and so should you!
You can also call and talk to the Mayor and City Administrator! Wow! I know it's amazing, but true. If you want them to hear your opinion, talk directly to them. You have the power.
Continue to complain here, but let's hear your complaint followed by "...and when I spoke with my alderman about it, they said..."
It would be a great idea if each of you who plans to attend the TDD Meeting would call a few friends and ask them to do likewise, etc. etc. and invite them to attend. This way everyone listens and learns and you will have performed your civic duty, that is if you believe each of us should contribute in some way to our city.
(I already made my calls by the way)
Thanks Tom for keeping us posted on these things. I hope it is put on the city website and if not there is a good reason why not.
Expect it on the web site? Ha! Seeing how they bungled putting the civil service minutes together and didn't put those on the web site either, what makes you think this will be any different?
I stand corrected! If you go to the city web page, you'll see a post of the Crestwood Point TDD meeting! Has our persistance paid off? At the moment, consider it a small victory. Kudos to the city for doing what they should have all along - informing the people!
Does this mean we should not shop at Sams Wholesale club in Crestwood? The tax rate is higher there than the rest of Crestwood. And surely some private landowner near the Sam's property benefitted by selling their property in order for the development to go through. I am certain that someone was paid higher than the assessed value that you seem so hung up on. Bottom line...you are against anything to do with Crestwood Swim Club. Just come out and admit it. I wonder why? This is a rhetorical question by the waybecause you never give a straight answer to ANYTHING. You are just like your idol...Senator Ted Kennedy.
8:58PM blogger: I shall do that, in fact, I will leave him alone unless he calls me!
Tom Ford
The TDD meeting.
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/Events/Default.aspx
Please try to attend.
Tom Ford
2:57 PM
The sales tax in all of Crestwood is quite high. And you are probably right in that some landowner from the Sam's development was paid higher than the assessed value...but how much higher???
...from what, 88,000 to 850,000???
If they were smart, yes. That's what smart business people do. I guess the majority of the posters on this blog would not be as smart. If someone wanted their $150,000 assessed value brick ranch home they would accept that offer and then when they tried to build a duplicate home out of all brick at 2006 prices they would realize they need a lot more money than the assessed value to replace their home. Maybe the pool should have just stayed put and then there would have been no deal to question and everyone could have that lovely eyesore of a corner back just like it was for so many years...and no shop and save and no las margaritas for all of boozhound bloggers and no hair salon and famous brand shoes and no mealmakers and no tutoring center and so on and so on. We would instead have a salvation army and a good will and a value village and lots of great high end retail shops like that.
9:53 PM, January 31, 2007
"I guess the majority of the posters on this blog would not be as smart."???
"boozhound bloggers"???
Nice. Real classy.
In a feeble attempt to bolster your weak argument, you resort to insults.
I don't believe the comments at 9:53 were weak arguments.
But yes the majority of the bloggers on this site would settle for appraised value instead of replacement. That can be a major mistake when purchasing home insurance. Many people want to pay lower premiums so they settle for appraised value coverage instead of replacement value. If you don't know if you have replacement coverage on your home insurance, you had better check! But I don't understand the "colorful" word? (boozhound) Not sure what they mean.
boozehound ( ) n. Slang. One who drinks alcoholic beverages habitually and excessively
If this goes through, which it seems like it is on that track, don't shop at Kohl's. I certainly won't. And I won't shop at that Ace Hardware either.
I guess if and when Westfield (or whoever is in charge of the mall) asks for these type of incentives to rennovate - you will be shopping in Sunset Hills and elsewhere.
Probably. Crestwood sales tax rate is sky high anyway.
That's a great way to support your town....I thought we were supposed to follow Tom's brilliant marketing advice and shop Crestwood first? Except when TIF is involved...should we go to Fenton instead, the community that is booming to our west...please tell me what to do?
I support my town, but don't tell me where to shop and I won't tell you were to shop.
no, you clearly don't.
4:02 PM blogger: If you have a better idea, please tell us! Shop where you will, please, but stop this TDD for "private use!!"
Tom Ford
Is the Kohl's a private store? Is the City Hall parking lot private? Are the turning lanes into the Shop and Save Private? Are the road improvements at Sappington and Watson Private? Are the parking lots surrounding Kohls private? Last time I checked none of these were private.
6:06 PM
You can have opinion, however wrong it might be.
Wow, now we are being told where to shop! I guess this is not a free country...
6:34 PM blogger: No they are not "private" but then again they are not included in the TDD. That was the TIF, CID portion of the deal.
Now the part where 2/3 acre is under the TDD is the City parking lot, and the swim club. The City parking lot portion is for $675,000.00, and the swim club is for $850,000.00.
What say we remove the $850K from the TDD and proceed? The swim club members have stated on this blog it's THF's problem, so why not do it?
Tom Ford
Because then no developers are going to want to work with the City of Crestwood.
Especially anyone interested in purchasing or redeveloping Crestwood Mall.
Do you think the same fate is in store for Sunset Hills since there was opposition to the proposed Novus development there? If one is to follow your logic, then there will be no more development in Sunset Hills either.
Martha Duchild
Thank you Mr. Spock.
Sunset Hills already has substantial existing development that would make moving into Sunset Hills more attractive.
If that's your contention, then how would you explain the development that has taken place in Jennings, MO? Jennings could hardly be characterized as having "substantial recent development," yet they managed to attract developers. Check out the January 31st 2007 edition of the Wall Street Journal, Marketplace section. It's a very interesting article.
Martha Duchild
I hear there is an opening for development director in the City of Crestwood...why don't you apply? Seriously.
Jennings doesn't have a mayor who hit his city's major salestax producing mail up for a campaign contribution 3 months after he was elected.
2:47 PM Oh so that's why our mall is declining. This mayor hit the Mall up for campaign contributions. Oh see now that makes sense????????
Can you prove that?
can you disprove it?
Wow, you really got me. How lame.
glad you know when you have been had.
The board members and members of the administration need to learn the art of negotiation, when it comes to economic development.
You know how it goes, "word gets around." Once upon a time both Northwest and Crestwood Malls were for sale. One got sold, one did not. Word got around. Why would anyone want to buy a mall when the city officials were deep in civil war a good deal of the time and unable to agree on anything. Not to mention the fact that the city had a 3.5 Mil Bank LOC going to pay the bills and despite this, group 1 was trying to force through a 14.5 Million Dollar city hall which was a total farce. Not to mention that the city had allowed its City Administrator to run the city by his own agenda which was totally unsuitable and unapproved by the majority of the residency. Two audits proved mismanagement of funds, a Mayor resigned to ho ho spend time with his family, several lawsuits occurred and recognized hanky panky was order of day at city hall. Residents had to take this bull by the horns and did. They petitioned against the city hall idea, elected a new Mayor and said buye bye to the C/A and his Financial Aide. We are still looking for the detail to the massive legal bills which remain undocumented.The Staff was honed down to a manageable size and despite some officials who were totally unsuited for civic service, progress was made. Several new members were elected and with luck new civil service codes will be agreed upon and the hiring freeze will be maintained until such time as residents wishes are upheld. They did not vote for a tax increase without expectations.
Thanks to a south county paper every Creatwood breath taken was publicized for the world to know so all this unprofessional immature political nonsense did not go undetected. "Word got around." Most especially this biased paper decided that it would cripple the city by pointing out and printing every painful step along the way. Making it unattractive to buyers.
Now Northwest Plaza owners have indicated they will need lots of money to make improvements and will probablay ask for a healthy TIF. Surprise! If Crestwood again is up for sale, a prospective owner will this time want some sort of assurance that they would find opportunity here and a board with foresight, and the ability to work together and put out the brush fires which in the past has done nothing but embarrass and humiliate the community and drive away takers. Yes, Word Gets Around. We are watching the board for continuing signs of change that will dispel the bleakness of the recent past. Change enough to encourage and promote civility on our board and be receptive, capable and willing to let bygones be bygones and make progress be the word that gets around. Yes, the past has affected the present and the future. No way to deny it. Signs of it returning do nothing more than deny the city its ability to turn things around at the mall.
For those new candidates running for office in April, please plan on recognizing priorities and applying yourself to your new assignments. Our city is important to us. We are truly tired of divisiveness among our officials based on pure politics. Please consider this the Word We Want To Get Around.
I am sure that word will get around that Tom Ford and his cabal are working overtime to ensure that one of the largest developers in the area--THF--does not get reimbursed for the money spent to buy the swim club property in order to develop the Kohls..Well played Tom Ford, Well played.
Yes word gets around that you can't ask the mayor any questions or "else" happens.
Yes word gets out that when our elected officals are quoted instead of a summary report of what they say in a newspaper, that some of them look like the fools they are.
Yes word gets out and I am happy that it does.
1:38PM blogger: I am glad to see that you think my opposing THF getting one dime for paying the $850,000.00 to the swim club, is "well played!"
I assure you that I will do everything in my power to see that this NEVER happens!
I shouldent be schocked that you are more than willing to have non pool members pay the freight through a 1 cent TDD sales tax when they shop at Kohl's, but I am!
You know the swim club/ Rosebrook Realty sold the parking lot portion of parcel 2 (2/3 acre) to the City for $1.00, and "other considerations" on October 22, 2002. On or about late December 2002, THF gave a check to the swim club/ Rosebrook Realty for $850,000.00 for parcel 2 (the origional lot the pool was on is not elegible for a TDD.)
Please explain how that works to us gentle blogger, because, They (the swim club/ Rosebrook Realty) deeded the one part, owned the other part, and the origional parcel was not included in the TDD, so how, or why would THF get the funds back from a TDD?
I am sure that this is just an oversight on my part, and I am more than willing to change my mind if you can provide us with the clairification we need to do so!
Tom Ford
I hope THF sues the city when they don't get their money. That will be hilarious.
I doubt that the City is libel for that transaction, I am thinking the swim club/Rosebrook Realty is a much better target.
It all depends on who promised what to whom (and was it in writing.) The City got the 2/3 acre parking lot for one dollar, and other considerations from Rosebrood Realty/ swim club, the swim club/ Rosebrook realty got $850,000.00 from THF, and for a while all was well.
Now THF want's to cash out the pool purchase funds ($850,000.00,) using a TDD. Well that's all fine and dandy, except I would like to see where the connection to the Kohl's project is (that was what the TDD was to be for!)
It strikes me that we should have a complete investigation by the BOA, calling wittnesses that were involved in the project in 2000/2002, and get to the bottom of this, in public for us all to see and hear.
many on this blog have stated flatly that there is no problem here, so if that's true, lets get it out on the table so we can all understand it!
Untill that happens, I, and a lot of others will be more than sceptical of this TDD, and the reasons behind it. What say you Crestwood?
Tom Ford
The more detail I absorb about the private Crestwood Swim Club issue, and the more the nameless members of this little club keep spewing, raging and ranting on this blog; the more I realize the hard place for them is filled with rock. The light of day now being shone has turned the swimmers into spewers. There is no plausible explanation for the existance of this pool. It just conveniently happened.
Is it not just a tad suspicious that so many members of this swim club found their calling in Crestwood politics during the Kohl's TIF era. Ah, well, must be a prerequisite. Sorta strange where the thing is situated, who built it, who got code variances, who all was serving the city while all this was going on and now?
Sorta wonder why Kohl's needed so many parking spaces since the former pool property which is now parking lot sits EMPTY, totally EMPTY, all the time. Not one alderman even tried to intervene on the oversize.
Sorta wonder how a pool assessed at 88,000 could drag in 850,000. Ah well, modern math. Figure the store size vs the lot size for Kohl's and then consider the entire size of the Mall vs lot size and you will find the ratio rather interesting.
Anyone know where we can find proof that the underground gas tanks were removed and the asphalt from the buildings was legally removed? Anyone??
Mostly, though, I wonder exactly how this whole thing came about. This pool in this highly unlikely place causing all this stink while aggravating surrounding neighbors with its promimity, noise and trash and crowding the parking lot at city hall during meets. Even if we did not have Whitecliff, it would be unsuitable.
Mr. Ford, somewhere on this blog site I read an article about this pool that you or someone posted that had come from the RFT, I believe. Could you reprint it here again. I want to review it again and be sure my misgivings are not misplaced.
You mean this one?
Pooling the Money
To the TIF victors go the spoils in Crestwood
By D.J. Wilson
Years from now, when people stop at Sappington and Watson roads in Crestwood to buy a Croft & Barrow sweater or a pair of Sonoma jeans at the Kohl's "That's More Like It" store, chances are they won't know they're paying an extra three-eighths-cent sales tax for the suburban burg's new transportation-development district.
Nor will they know that the tax increase enabled the members-only Crestwood Swim Club to sell off 1 acre of land with an aging private swimming pool, currently appraised at $88,000, for $750,000. But in St. Louis County, with its 91 municipalities and just so much development enticement to go around, a suburb does what a suburb's got to do. In this case, besides a $2.2 million tax-increment-financing plan, Crestwood created a transportation-development district and a community-improvement district.
Let's not put everyone to sleep with too much detail about the difference between a TIF, a TDD and a CID. Believe it, explaining that convoluted mess makes a drug dealer's money-laundering seem like simple arithmetic. It boils down to this: Crestwood wanted to develop that busy corner, but to do so, the $2.2 million TIF subsidy wasn't quite enough. TIF funnels a portion of the new, or "incremental," sales-tax money from a development back into the project to pay off its cost. The swimming pool was outside the footprint of the TIF district but was needed for additional parking. So a TDD was formed to raise more public money, to be paid off with a three-eighths-cent sales tax to be collected at the proposed Kohl's.
The developer, THF Inc., first offered $250,000 for the 1-acre pool site, but that sum was deemed insufficient by the swim club. So THF settled on $750,000 and looked for a way to generate more cash for the project. Technically, the three-eighths-cent TDD sales tax won't be used to pay off the pool -- instead, it will pay for driveways and lights and such -- but all that money is fungible, moving around to enable the developer to cash out the swim club.
That's what irritates Catherine Barrett, a lifelong Crestwood resident who feels that the dues-paying members of a private pool are making out like bandits. "What economic benefit is there to Crestwood? Why are we trying to subsidize a private pool?" asks Barrett. "They're going to get more money for their pool than they should, an additional $500,000, to build a pool for 110 families, the majority of whom are not even Crestwood residents. What good is that doing for us?"
Barrett has another ax to grind: The new pool will be located on land owned by the swim club, right next to her house. That displeases her in part because the swim club was granted a conditional-use permit so it could build the replacement pool in an area zoned for residential development.
Gary Vincent, a Crestwood alderman, doesn't see eye to eye with Barrett. He happens to be president of the Rosebrook Real Estate Co., which owns the pool. He recused himself from voting on matters connected to the land sale, and he thinks Barrett and other neighbors should clam up. "They're saying we're getting paid too much money -- how can they determine that?" Vincent asks. "What difference does it make to a resident, around that pool, what we get paid for? That's not going to affect them at all. That has absolutely no impact on them whatsoever, at all. Period."
Yeah, right. It might be nobody's bidness, if the developer was paying its own way. But the sales tax paid by the public at this Kohl's will go in part to subsidize the developer and in part to pay for a new pool for a private club. So Barrett does have a legit gripe.
Assistant city administrator Matt Conley defends the use of a TIF to develop the corner across from the Crestwood Plaza, saying, "This project is the poster child for tax-increment financing." An abandoned gas station and asbestos in the five-story bank building make cleanup of the site expensive and have prevented private-sector development, he says. Without the use of TIFs by inner-ring suburbs, the sprawl in Jefferson, Franklin and St. Charles counties will be fed by economic refugees from St. Louis County, Conley contends.
"Retail follows rooftops," he says. "Where they're building houses, that's where they'll go. If Kohl's doesn't build in Crestwood, they'll build out in Eureka. That's the way it is. We don't make those calls; the people who work for Wal-Mart and Target and Kohl's, they do that. We don't necessarily like the tools we have to use, but they're the only ones we have. If we could have other mechanisms to use that weren't so controversial and weren't so convoluted, we would love to use them."
Using a TIF and a TDD to make a project possible is like borrowing money from Peter and Paul to pay off Guido. But as with all TIFs, from the ones used to build St. Louis Galleria on, most property owners don't complain because they're getting paid double or triple their property value. The host city doesn't gripe, because in the short term it gets increased tax revenue. And surely the developer doesn't whine, because he's guaranteed a generous return on his investment without the usual risk.
The losers are the ones who have no say in the decision: neighboring cities, which lose development and revenue to the TIF district; small-business owners, who never qualify for TIFs; and public schools and other taxing districts, which lose the incremental taxes for years to come.
But if you're a member of the Crestwood Swim Club, jump in, the water's fine -- and it's paid for.
That's the one. Thanks.
Share this with your neighbors and Jay Nixon. It does have a perspective.
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