St. Charles County executive regrets TIF for "Noah's Ark"
Please click on the header to be directed to a story in the Post Dispatch today reference a TIF for the redevelopment area known as "Noah's Ark."
This is relevant here as we also may face the same prospect at the "Plaza" if were not careful!
You will note that not only the city, county, and others loose funds for 23 years, it also effects the school district (that is the major part of our tax bills!)
So, what do you think?
Tom Ford
NO. 381
This is relevant here as we also may face the same prospect at the "Plaza" if were not careful!
You will note that not only the city, county, and others loose funds for 23 years, it also effects the school district (that is the major part of our tax bills!)
So, what do you think?
Tom Ford
NO. 381
posted by Crestwood Independent at 17:17
43 Comments:
Sounds like Crestwood Mall deal and Northwest Mall deal?
I think it is great to help the developers make as much profit they can on Sales Tax dollars.
Why not? They pay $7.00 an hour without heath benefits.
Can Perma Jack fix the Dillar Garage?
What's the Dillar garage?
dillar is dillard's
What about Phyllis Diller?
Phyllis Diller is from Webster Groves!
Maybe Phillis Diller was Attorney Charles Berry neighbor!
Why were the suspenders arrested?
They held up a pair of pants.
Was Phyllis Diller one of the founding members of Crestwood Swim Club?
No, I think it was a group from the original "Rocketts." And from the look of it some still belong.
Martha for Mayor in '08!!!
Is Richard Bland going to run?
Is Richard Bland going to run?
No but Timmy T. is! Maybe Jimbo Robertson will come back too! Just like old times!
Ok, sales tax and property tax at the mall are going down and will continue to go down. TIF freezes the decline and the half the increase in new sales tax goes to the city. The school district dosen't get any "new money", but they don't continue to loose any more.
Sounds alot better than what we've got now. Westfield needs to go! They've done nothing but run the mall into the ground.
You spend your money that has been taxed once on your paycheck to earn it. Then you go to the mall and get taxed again to spend it. Some of it will even pay for the Mall improvements.
You spend your money to improve your house and consequently improve the values of your neighbor's homes. You invest in your community...you get penalized. If it were not for you there would be no retail at all.
Big developer does not have to pay taxes and possibly gets tax assistance for many years. His investment grows and he sells and makes a big profit and gets out before he has to pay taxes. New owner comes in and plays landlord. Only putting enough money in to keep the lights on.
What we're doing is not right and is not a long term solution, but nobody is willing to change it. Our backs are against the wall. The city has an addiction to tax revenue that can't be broken.
Oh, Tom, Tom, Tom. You are as predictable as ever. I read this article over the weekend in the paper and knew instantly that you'd link it. Not saying you're wrong to do it. I think it has some valuable information and some valid ties to THF's dealings in Crestwood. Just saying I could see this post coming from a mile away. Well, from my laptop anyway.
12:02 AM blogger: You betcha "red Rider!" Have you ever wondered where I am coming from?
Regret is a sad thing, you shell out the money to a developer, and then you wait to see what you get!
We will no doubt give someone mega bucks in "tax relief," only to find two check cashing places, three new shoe shine stands, and a barber shop!
Now, I have said that these developers need to guarantee, and give us the name of the stores before we agree to ANY tax relief!
I guess that's dumb though because our "leaders" want to bet on the come! I will offer to take any one of them (or all) to any casino they name (MO, IL) if they will bring their own money, and bet on inside strights all night! Whether you know it or not, that's just what they are doing with our tax money!
Funny but I can't see any of them in a "riverboat gambler's" outfit, but they sure should get one, at least we'll know what's going on!
Tom Ford
Balloon for Noah Ark's is still up.
The pool is closed so I guess the Blue and white Balloon will be in heading for the Balloon at Forest Park!
Do they have a permit for the largest balloon on their deck!
?????????????????????????
7:11PM
A lot depends how the TIF agreement is written.
Putting a Kohl's and a Nordman's across the street from the plaza certainly didn't "help" the mall either.
The money would be better spent courting developers to build quality housing. The stores are not here because the demographic they want does not live here.
Quality housing provides long term community stability.
Retail creates as many problems as it solves.
Did you see this press release from Jefferson City, Missouri?
http://auditor.mo.gov/news/20070719tdd.htm
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASEThursday July 19, 2007
CONTACT: Samantha Brewer, Public Affairs Coordinator(573) 751-5313E-mail: Samantha.Brewer@auditor.mo.gov
“In their current form, Missouri's TDDs are about as close as you can get to taxation without representation,” State Auditor Susan Montee said. "The General Assembly needs to take action or Missourians will continue to pay these higher taxes with little or no input into what they are paying or how their money is spent."
(JEFFERSON CITY, MO) – Today, Missouri State Auditor Susan Montee released an audit of Transportation Development Districts (TDDs). As of December 31, 2005, 98 TDDs had been established in Missouri, including 29 established in 2005. An additional 22 were established in 2006. While previous audit of TDDs (SAO Report No. 2006-12, issued March 2006) reported various issues in the areas of public awareness/involvement, accountability, and compliance, the 2007 General Assembly made only one change to the TDD statutes addressing issues reported in the prior audit.
TDDs are established for the construction of transportation-related projects, and governed by a board of directors with the authority to impose sales taxes within that district to pay those costs. In 95 percent of the districts the property owner/developer petitioned for its creation. All of the districts have additional sales tax on retail items sold within the districts' boundaries imposed by the property owner/developer. This results in higher sales tax than the retail establishments outside the district's boundaries. The TDDs are created without public input and sales tax is increased without a public vote.
Officials or representatives of 97 of the TDDs reported total estimated transportation project costs of over $923 million, while 87 of those TDDs reported total estimated revenues of over $1 billion would be collected over the lives of the TDDs.
The current audit found issues in the areas of construction contracts and project management, professional services, budgetary matters, and financial reporting. Competitive bids were either not solicited or appropriate bidding procedures could not be determined. Written contracts related to the construction or construction management services were not always prepared or approved in a timely manner. Requests for proposals for various professional services were either not properly solicited or documentation was not available to provide assurance that such proposals were solicited.
Various matters were noted related to transportation projects costs claimed for reimbursement by developers. For example, it appeared the costs claimed by a developer for reimbursement were included twice, overstating reimbursement requests by approximately $123,800. In addition, in one district, customers of the major retailer in the district were incorrectly charged sales tax at a rate higher than that approved by the district for an 8-month period, resulting in an overpayment of sales taxes by the retailer to the district of approximately $60,000 for this time period.
9:40 While I agree with you I also recall a "few" mayors ago an idea presented to do just what you suggest at the corner of Watson and Grant. Do you remember the wise ones of our city who said there wasn't a market in Crestwood for such upscale housing? Do you recall the statement made by then alderman Breeding about the bill to restrict parking of RV's, boats, etc that who did we think we were Town and Country, that we are just plan old Crestwood, let em park what they want where they want?
No my thoughtful blogger I fear that what Pogo said in a Sunday paper comic strip many years ago, "We have found the problem and it is us" applys to us in Crestwood.
Putting a Kohl's and a Nordman's across the street from the plaza certainly didn't "help" the mall either.
Gordman's wasn't a TIF. We couldn't say no without getting sued. Kohl's would have hurt the Mall far more if it would have gone to Kirkwood..... For those of you who care, in the reatail world it is called Synergy.
The fact is, unless you have an up to date mall with class A tennants, shoppers will vote with their feet. Why would hassel with going to an old mall with nothing, when you can get the same stuff at Wal-Mart, Target or Kohl's and be in and out in fast.
Westfield ran our mall into the ground while putting a ton of money into their other properties.
They need to be shown the door.
A mixed use devleopment with housing, specialty retail and some office is the best bet for the mall. This will take dollars and that means TIF.
8/21/07 Residential Tax for a Large Commercial Pool which is owned by two Missouri Corporations!
What a great bargain?
Notice Crestwood Swim Club/Rosebrook Real Estate received a reduction in their St. Louis County Real Estate Taxes!
Rosebrook Realestate Company/Crestwood Swim Club
1475 S. Sappington Rd 63126
http://revenue.stlouisco.com/ias/
Click on BOE Decision Letter pdf to view the following:
Saint Louis COUNTY REVENUE
Charlie A. Dooley
County Executive
Eugene K. Leung
Director of Revenue
ROSEBROOK REALESTATE COMPANY
P O BOX 260083
SAINT LOUIS MO 63126
August 21, 2007
Locator No. Sch/Sub
25M621280 138DD
NOTICE
Section 138.060.1 RSMo 2000 states "The County Board of Equalization shall in a summary way,determine all appeals from the valuation of property made by the Assessor, and shall correct and adjust the assessment accordingly."
The St. Louis County Board of Equalization (Board) has reviewed all evidence submitted regarding your appeal (No. B070107863) and has determined the valuation of your property for 2007 is as follows:
Appraised Value by Assessor was:
Residential : $368,300 Residential: $325,000
Commercial : $0 Commercial: $0
Agricultural : $0
Appraised Value by Board is:
Agricultural: $0
Total Appraised : $368,300 Total Appraised: $325,000
You have the right to file an appeal with the State Tax Commission (STC). If you choose to appeal you should use the enclosed postcard to request the appeal form(s) from the STC or download them from their web site: http://www.stc.mo.gov/forms_legal.htm. A separate appeal form is required for each Locator Number.
If you requested appeal form(s), the STC will mail the form(s) to you along with instructions as to how to fill out your completed form(s). The completed appeal form(s) must be filed (delivered or mailed) no later than thirty (30) days after the above date of notice.
The State Tax Commission Hearing will be held in the St. Louis Government Center, 41 S. Central Avenue Clayton, Missouri. You will be informed of the date and time of your hearing.
Sincerely,
St. Louis County
Board of Equalization
Mary Elizabeth Dorsey, Chairman
Board of Equalization 41 South Central Avenue, Saint Louis, MO 63106
PH 314-615-7195 FAX 314-615-3746
"No my thoughtful blogger I fear that what Pogo said in a Sunday paper comic strip many years ago, "We have found the problem and it is us" applys to us in Crestwood.
7:24 AM, September 07, 2007"
Should we disincorporate and be run by St. Louis County?
4:43 PM blogger: Not on your life my friend! You want higher tax's, poor police protection, and a fire district only interested in themselves?
Well if you do, by all means go to County!
By the way the quote is "we have met the enemy, and it is us!" Now I don't see any "enemies" here in Crestwood, do you?
Tom Ford
By the way the Pogo quote was as the blogger published it.
8:16 PM blogger: Not really! Cut and paste this for a copy of the comic strip. Read it and weep my friend!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo
Tom Ford
Was I told correctly that Wildwood, etc. benefits from our Plaza receipts from some law passed to equalize? If so, since our recipts are on the decline are we still sharing them with Wildwood, etc? Isn't it time to be on the receiving end of this law?
As for the Noah's Ark deal. Me thinks they could have used the services of a city attorney who knew his stuff. If only to point them in the right direction. One has to wonder whose side these municipal city attorneys are on. However, I don't think we need wonder long in Crestwood. Time to change cars on the gravy train. This would be the responsible thing to do. Nope, not the political thing to do, the responsible thing to do.
Soon!
TIF's, and CID's were avenues sanctioned by the Federal Government in their attempt to be of assistance to developers to "develop" and aid cities in keeping growth strong in the process. Sounds like a good idea, but.....
Once again, cities hired lawyers to get through the paperwork, and lawyers hired more lawyers at prime hourly rates and the lawyers did what they do best - get around the legal requirements for their own personal gain.
If you get my jest, it turned out to be another paradox of governmental mayhem because lawyers found ways to abuse its use; re Kohl's, Swim Club.
It's all about one hand washing the other with their goal not being how to use the federal guidelines of tax increment financing to assist cities and developers but to stomp all over the basic intent.
Just like everything else, it's all about the few who line their pockets while everybody else pays. Just like Napoleon dancing while Rome burned.
You would think this world would learn from hundreds of years of mistakes. But today it is all about what can you do for me.
The Goldmen's hated the book written by OJ Simpson, but now that he got the lawyers and Judge to make sure they get a piece of the pie, it's entirely a different story. You see....it's m o n e y, my friends.
TIF's, and CID's were avenues sanctioned by the Federal Government in their attempt to be of assistance to developers to "develop" and aid cities in keeping growth strong in the process. Sounds like a good idea, but.....
Once again, cities hired lawyers to get through the paperwork, and lawyers hired more lawyers at prime hourly rates and the lawyers did what they do best - get around the legal requirements for their own personal gain.
If you get my jest, it turned out to be another paradox of governmental mayhem because lawyers found ways to abuse its use; re Kohl's, Swim Club.
It's all about one hand washing the other with their goal not being how to use the federal guidelines of tax increment financing to assist cities and developers but to stomp all over the basic intent.
Just like everything else, it's all about the few who line their pockets while everybody else pays. Just like Napoleon dancing while Rome burned.
You would think this world would learn from hundreds of years of mistakes. But today it is all about what can you do for me.
The Goldmen's hated the book written by OJ Simpson, but now that he got the lawyers and Judge to make sure they get a piece of the pie, it's entirely a different story. You see....it's m o n e y, my friends.
Very true. How about if Crestwood becomes famous for breaking the trend. No more being subject to the highway robery of lawyers. One capable, trustworthy, neutral, apolitical, honorable, and INTELLIGENT one will do. How about if we get a crust of "courage."
I hereby challenge our elected to take as much time as they need to burrow thorough all the layers of deceit foisted upon them and make it abundantly clear that Crestwood people have high expectations for our tax dollars, our personnel and our officials and that all feathers feather the nest of our city coiffers. I ask that they examine the invoices of questionable bills free from insinuations of people who would accuse them of taking city time or being unreasonable.And if accused of this, bring it to the attention of the constituancy. Since everyone is so sincere about Sunshine, well, lets make sure it shines in every deepartment at city hall. The new Open Door Policy. Let's also make sure that if we don't have anyone with financial expertise, or legal expertise, that we just might need to shake some ships.
11:37 PM blogger: Bravo, now do we need to "help" the elected re-orient their compass?
I doubt that "once they have seen Paris" they will want to go back to the farm willingly!
Could be though, unless some other "pet project" comes to the fore. That's how we got the "Sadam Husain" bath tub in the parking lot, so who knows what some of the good old boys have in mind!
Tom Ford
I agree with the last few bloggers. Too many people with their hands in the pie leads to confusion and mayhem. Keep it simple stupid!!!!!
Help Me Please Help Me!!! How can I believe anything posted by some one who thinks Napoleon danced while Rome burned!!
Are you sure it wasn't the late former Cithy Administator who danced or maybe it was a former mayor? They get blamed for everything that has ever happened that was bad, why not that?
Napoleon, my GAWD people are all of you really that stupid????????
10:19 PM Stupid? Takes one to know one.
Napoleon, who's Napoleon?
Rome, where's Rome?
Stupid, who's stupid?
When in Rome, look for Napoleon.
When in France, try for Caeser.
When in Crestwood. Lighten UP!
This is the city of enlightenment, where restricted, membership only, private pools sit up behind our city hall, aapproved by city fathers, a pool using a city parking lot and contributing to a disastrous noise level for nearby residents. Where the president of this club was a city alderman, as is and was the city attorney. Where a developer makes the purchase deal with this club and it turns out sorta private and involves 850,000 of serious hide. Murky murky. A city where lawsuits and HUGE and largly undocumented legal bills are a way of life; where tax payers wake up one day to find their city, while in tatters, is planning a revised city hall to the tune of 14.5 Mil. A city where a city employee was driving a BMW and getting a monthly allowance to do so. A city where all of a sudden it becomes a priority to change a charter so this bunch of bumblers can run for office again, and when they can't want to write a code of conduct so they can run the new guys off. A city where when this saga is mentioned, finds a set of people who like to get ugly and confrontational and want us to fagedaboutit. Well, this is not a chapter out of Anderson's Fairy Tales, it did not happen without someone approving it. So, who would that be? Who would you blame? You seem to want to defend all this. But, why. It happened. In spite of it. I lighten up every chance I get. But when YOU have the nerve to call someoone stupid, I make an exception and I'm not even the one who pulled your tab. New York has a thousand stories, but Crestwood is catching up.
5:53 PM Love it, Love it, Love it. My hat's off to you dear blogger. You are so right on with your words.
I think the problem is oil. There is oil on Detjen Drive. No doubt about it. Joint oil. It is in the buried tanks along with Jimmy Hoffa and the profit from the sale of the old pool and the paperwork saved from the shredder. When the city began to get in dire straits, it was decided that to move city hall fully into bankruptcy all one had to do is have the bank assign it as collateral backing for the LOC. Then despite an empty piggybank run up enough bills to drive it all the way to bankruptcy. Bills like a 14.5 Million Dollar cityhall re-do, new furniture, legal bills out the gazoo, software packages, BMW's (you get the picture, right)? Then, the plan was for the wet-ones aka the wetties, to have a bake sale, a wine party and a stockholder meeting to express appreciation to its swimmers who were enabler officials and to hold a raffle for the complete list of members and the biggest Italian swim suit on the premises and raise enough money to buy city hall outright. Then inherit all the oil. Drill for it, hold the oil rights and donate the city hall back. Salvation! But alas, along came SuperMan, Batman, Spiderman and Sponge Bob, sent by the feds to break up the biggest hometown scam of the century.
Soon as the city is back on its feet, a country club is slated to be built adjacent to city hall taking up most of ward 2. Emminent domain will be used and residents will be moved to the Viking.
The Mall will become a dodge car track, a kool aid stand and a fireworks shed. There will no longer be any incentive to be a city official.
A large chain link fence will surround the city and admission will be charged to enter. Lawyers will take to the hills, Sunset and others. This blog will be taken over by ilks.
No, the problem is that the oil is all in Oklahoma, and Texas, but the dip sticks are in the City parking lot!
I think we should knock down the plaza, flood the area, and build a river boat casino in it's place! Boy talk about tax revenue, heck we could all be driving BMW's, wearing large brim hat's, and Mr. "T" gold chain starter sets! I'm thinking a Zoot suit for me.
Also, just think of the job's created right here in town!
Can I be Sponge Bob? My Grandson loves that guy!
Tom Ford
Tom, could you wear the zoot suit with a bow tie? Maybe cop a little attitude. Only, you change its earlier connotation. Give it some class.I know Tucker gave it up, but Chief Rosy Cheeks didn't and it needs revival cause it cracks me up in rememberance of the clown on the previous board. I'm gonna consider dressing as the gal in short shorts who along with Dr. Dark addressed the board in search of the illusive Plan every 2nd and 4th Tuesday Nights.
6:34 PM blogger: I shall see if I can rent one (zoot suit) for the next meeting! The bown tie is a great addition, and if I get the suit, it will be done!
This would be a hoot! Why not illistrate the absurdity with absurdity?
Tom Ford
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