Two very excellent letters to the editor from Crestwood residents re: the tax increase.
Please click on the header to be directed to The South County Times "letters to the editor" section of this weeks paper.
Both Mrs. Duchild, and Mr. Anderson make excellent point's, and have hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned.
As I have said in the past, please get the TRUTH from both sides of this issue, and vote the way you see it. Your vote is going to be the only way the nine people on the BOA will know what you want, please get to the polls, and vote!
Tom Ford
NO. 524
Both Mrs. Duchild, and Mr. Anderson make excellent point's, and have hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned.
As I have said in the past, please get the TRUTH from both sides of this issue, and vote the way you see it. Your vote is going to be the only way the nine people on the BOA will know what you want, please get to the polls, and vote!
Tom Ford
NO. 524
posted by Crestwood Independent at 16:04
58 Comments:
I was asked to post a copy of the flyer handed out at the last "Citizens for proposition 1 meeting, and here it is.
"Before voting on August 5th, please consider the following:
Proposition 1 will DOUBLE your Crestwood Property tax and will be the NINTH tax increase proposed by city leaders in eight years!
1. August 2000 Proposition C Passed
Sales Tax/Parks and Storm Water
2. August 2002 Proposition S Passed
Sales Tax/Capital Improvements Extension
3. August 2003 Proposition 1 Passed
Sales Tax/Fire Department
4. April 2005 Proposition 1 Failed
General Obligation Bond/Property Tax
5. Nov. 2005 **Proposition R Passed
Increase Merchant License Fee/Gross Receipts
6. Nov. 2005 **Proposition S Passed
Tax Increase/Gross Receipts/Commercial Utilities
7. Nov. 2005 **Proposition T Failed
Tax Increase/Gross Receipts/Residential Utilities
8. April 2006 **Proposition S Passed
Property Tax Increase
9. August 2008 **Proposition 1 To Be Decided
Property Tax Increase
**Proposition 1 is the FIFTH tax increase proposed under Mayor Roy Robinson!
Tell your city leaders you want fiscal control.
Tell your city leaders to work within their budgets. Vote NO on Proposition 1!"
What it didn't say was it's on your personal property AS WELL!
Tom Ford
Ballot language from the Cities web site!
JULY/AUGUST 2008
PROP 1 Information
The Board of Aldermen has chosen to place a property tax proposition on the August 5, 2008
ballot. This proposal titled Proposition 1, would levy an additional tax on residential, commercial
and personal property. The Ballot language for this issue is:
Shall the City of Crestwood, St. Louis County, Missouri, impose a general property tax in the
amount of $.35 additional on each $100 of assessed valuation of all taxable residential, commercial
and personal property for the purpose of funding the City’s operations and providing
services to the residents of Crestwood, said tax to be imposed for a period of six ( 6 ) years
from the year of passage?
Please not PERSONAL PROPERTY as well!
Tom Ford
Yes, personal property too?
Tom,
It looks like we only had one property tax increase if the information you posted is correct. Am I not reading it correctly?
it appears the others were sales tax or commercial utility tax hikes.
12:21 PM blogger: It looks more like four to me, No. five would be Prop. 1. The remaining are commercial, an increase none the less. Please remember that we also pay "sales tax" when we shop in Crestwood.
Tom Ford
Yes, we pay sales tax, but over 98% comes from non-residents.
Let's see August 2000 Prop C.... build new acquatic center and improvements to parks and have 98% paid for by non residents.
August 2002 Proposition S Another Sales tax to pay for police palace and now to rebuild our streets with 98% paid for by non residents.
August 2003 Proposition 1 Another Sales tax to have nearly 40% of Fire Department Budget paid for by 98% non residents.
November 2005 Proposition R tax on Commercial gross receipts with cost increase passed on to 98% non residents.
November 2005 Proposition S tax on gross receipts COMMERCIAL utilites passed on to 98% non residents,
We seem to like to make others pay to run our city. Maybe it's time to consider chipping in a little more from the natives?
3:30 PM blogger: Maybe it is, but not without secure controls on the spending in place.
I doubt you will find anyone in this City who is against paying our own way, but most of us are against the over the budget (or not in it) expenditures we have all witnessed. Such as:
10 salary "adjustments," and five promotions.
Almost $90,000 over budget for radios (budget was $95,000.)
Paying for out of town "consultants" to tell us what we already know.
Legal fees with no explanation as to what they are for:
People who draw down well over $200 per hour telling us they will get back to us.
A "sales tax holiday" in the midst of asking for more taxes.
Requesting $15,000 for a new web site.
We have X dollars in surplus, oops were in the red by X.
I could go on but why bother, you get my drift.
I am looking to Jim Eckrich to put an anchor on this sort of activity, and restore fiscal responsibility to Crestwood before I will be able to justify anything more in the way of taxes.
The BOA is doing the best it can with the information they have been given, but that's where the problem is. You see they are working with a set of numbers that may, or may not be correct. We need time for Jim to correct this.
You mistake my position on taxes as being dead set against them, well I am not, but I will not OK them until the type of things I mentioned above has been stopped.
Were from Missouri here, so "show me!"
Tom Ford
Tom,
I detect a ray of sunshine coming from your direction. I can't believe you just said you were not dead set against a tax increase. It must be that your meeting with alderman Foote may have provided you with a clearer picture.
5:37 PM blogger: My picture is "crystal clear." My meeting with Alderman Foote was, as always very informative, and cordial.
That said however, did you notice the list of "requests" I made in my note?
If those are not met (and they can't be by 8/5/08,) I am still dead set against proposition 1. So I guess the "ray of sunshine" is on hold until I see some definite improvement at City Hall.
Tom Ford
3:30 PM blogger: 98% outside customers? In the days of $4.00 a gallon gas I doubt that number is correct.
I would say it's more like 60/40, with 60% coming from Crestwood shoppers.
Tom Ford
Yeah, I can't buy that 98% number either. As Crestwood has less and less to offer I think the number of nonresident shoppers is decreasing drastically each year.
I would say it's more like 60/40, with 60% coming from Crestwood shoppers.
Sorry, Tom... it's simple math... when you look at the number of Crestwood households and multiply that by what the Census says they spend per year, on average, it doeesn't even come close to 10% of last year's taxable sales.
BTW, the City does not get a penny from all that gas being sold in Crestwood... no sales tax on gas and it distributed by the State based on population. I called another City and talked with their CA and he told me how the gas tax thing works in MO.
Regardless of what percentage it is, Crestwood residents, at least most of them, shop in Crestwood. They pay the sales tax too.
They also pay the utility taxes. They also pay the real and personal property taxes.
2:11PM blogger: I never said we got a penny from gasoline, I said it is $4.00 per gallon, which leads me to doubt people are driving here in droves.
By the way, for what it's worth, even with Jim Butler gone we still get the tax from the sales of cars (if the person buying it lives in Crestwood.)
Simple math or not, a lot of people are now shopping on the Internet, avoiding taxes, and high gas prices, and getting what they want in no time.
There are many dark forces at work here, not just the plaza, or the lack of it. To survive we must learn to adapt to the ever changing status of retailing as we know it.
Retailing is changing from the "brick and mortar" era to the "on line era," and rather rapidly. A business is lost now without a website, and that goes for all types of business's.
My dealers tell me that the customer knows what they want when they call by reading about the product on line first, a far cry from 10 years ago. Want a new air conditioner? Try www.rheemac.com for the dealer nearest you!
Change is here and now, and unless we quit making "buggy whips" in a "horseless carriage" society, were doomed!
Why do you think Kirkwood, Webster groves, and other communities have special weekends in the park, Festivals, ETC.? Simple, to draw people, people who will spend money! What do we do? Well, gee......
Tom Ford
"Simple, to draw people, people who will spend money! What do we do? Well, gee......"
Mayor's 1st ever picnic?
That packed them into our retail, didn't it.
4:26 PM blogger: That packed the retail stores like sardines! I am amazed the fire Marshall wasn't worried to death!
So much for the "tongue in cheek" report, now, what do we have that will get them in? Whatever it is will need to be on the lot of Crestwood Courts, or forget it!
Good Lord we have the last remaining (3 mile) stretch of RT. 66 in tact and we can't come up with a regional car show, or?
Tom Ford
Off current topic -- is the newly hired city administrator currently a Crestwood resident, and if not, how long does he have to relocate? Or does he get a total pass on that rule by Roy like the police chief did?
They also pay the utility taxes. They also pay the real and personal property taxes.
Yes and they also get police and ems response times for most... if not All calls of under 4 minutes, great recreational eminities, outstanding snow removal, increased animal control etc.
The average Crestwoodians total Crestwood Tax Burden is pretty low for the quality of services that they get. Look at what our neighbors pay for similiar services.
is the newly hired city administrator currently a Crestwood resident, and if not, how long does he have to relocate?
No he is not... He lives in Fenton. He has 6 monhts to relocate per the CA job announcement that was on the website.
Tick tock.. the clock is ticking.
Crestwood's Charter does not require that the City Administrator reside in Crestwood.
I believe the residency requirement applies to elected officials only.
Martha Duchild
"Yes and they also get police and ems response times for most... if not All calls of under 4 minutes, great recreational eminities, outstanding snow removal, increased animal control etc."
I like that word "increased". Fact is, Crestwood is the only municipality around here with an animal control officer. And here city leaders tell us they have made "deep cuts".
Crestwood voters have seen some type of tax increase at the ballot box 8 times over the past 8 years. This is the ninth.
Our sales tax rate is one of the highest in St. Louis County. Our utility taxes are moderately high too.
Fact is, the city got ten new police cars and some officers got raises or promotions.
Fact is, the mayor thought we should by a new server for the city's website, claiming something to the effect that a new server was only $15,000.
If you want to give this city more of your tax money, be my guest. In my mind, that would be like adding water to a leaky kettle.
Crestwood's Charter does not require that the City Administrator reside in Crestwood.
No, but the add posted in the City's Website etc. stated that relocation within six months is required. We are paying Jim $93,000 a year. I'm sure he can find a very nice house in Crestwood that he can afford.
Don't forget the $30,000 line in this years budget for legal cost associated with matters at the Mall. Anyone seen where that money was spent?
No, I haven't.
And what about the lawsuit to join the municipal league? or some group that is suing regarding TIF laws? I think the city authorized an expenditure up to $10,000. By the way, the board was tied, but the mayor broke the tie in favor of the law suit.
We didn't need to join the lawsuit because the city sent a clear message in its Request for Development Proposals that it was willing to use TIF, TDD, and CID. The mayor said so in his townhall meeting too.
Correction and clarification to my last entry- the mayor said he was willing to use TIF, TDD, and CID for the mall. Didn't say the city didn't need to join the lawsuit.
Fact is Poster I agree with you, no cuts no increase in income for the City. Simple as that.
City needs to live within it's income like the rest of us do when income levels drop, then spending must as well. All levels of Govt seem to feel they are the only ones who can not take a cut in pay, it's time that stops and it's time it stops here in Crestwood this August!
Seems to me we are only getting one side of the story here and I am still waiting for some facts from both sides to help me make a decision in August. As of now I am leaning toward voting yes for the tax increase for one reason and one reason only. I have peersonally been the recipient of help from both our Firemen and public works people and feel I would not be here today without them. I don't mind digging a little deeper into my pocket for these wonderful people.
6:13 PM blogger: I have a set of numbers from BOTH sides of this issue, and if you would E-mail me your address, I will give them to you.
After that, it's your decision to make.
tford60@earthlink.net
Tom Ford
I am voting for the tax increase. Jerry Miguel has proven himself to be completely clueless analyzing budget numbers. Crestwood offers excellent services. We need these to keep our community viable and desirable. I just sold a house in Crestwood (and remained in Crestwood BTW) and all of these factors played in to the new owners decision to buy a home here. You complain about all the people at City Hall...what do you think you are going to get when they all leave and take higher paying jobs. It is amazing to see how naive so many people on this blog truly are.
11:58 AM, July 23, 2008
"You complain about all the people at City Hall...what do you think you are going to get when they all leave and take higher paying jobs."
Wait a minute! Is that a scare tactic or a 'suggestion' that services might be cut? I thought that proponents of Prop 1 weren't going to do that. Oh well.
Call people names all you want "It is amazing to see how naive so many people on this blog truly are" but I'm voting against the tax hike.
Oh, one more thing. If you really want detailed, factual, hard hitting information regarding the budget, ask the mayor. See what answers you'll get. Go ahead.
I am amazed that the register political group "Citizens for Prop. 1" didn't have to put a paid for statement on this months issue of the Crestwood news letter announcing their Town Hall meetings which were nothing more than a vote for Prop 1 pep rally.
I am not amazed that our City Attorney said what they did was ok. My sense of things is that our city govt has become corrupt.
This post is a giant circle-jerk...Tom, Roger and Martha
To all who condemn the use of the word "Cuts" as threats, remember that threats are no longer called threats when they become "reality".
By the way why don't you Webster and Kirkwood residents stop stirring up so much controversy on our Crestwood Blog? Go start your own site and leave us alone.
How about cuts in wages instead of services? All we need from each employee is $11 a month less and we can go into the future without sales tax rev.
It's only $11 a mth, surely every employee of Crestwood can afford that?
If not why do they think I can afford that amount being taken from me with increased taxes?
2:00 pm
What a concept. Many employees don't even live in Crestwood so why should they pay out of their pockets.
If you don't want a tax increase, just say so because frankly if you were employed at, for instance, the City of Webster Groves and didn't live there, I can tell you right now, there would be no way you would take money out of your pocket to save those people from a tax increase. That has got to be the most idiotic thing I ever heard. You can't be serious.
Once again, you have had a free ride with low tax for years while sales tax paid for everything in this city and is the reason why your taxes are low; and now after all these years, you can't get used to the idea of paying more to keep what we have. You are, indeed, a taker and want others to pay your way. Talk about integrity!
You are nothing but a reprobate and just want to cause people to become angry. That must be why your comments are insane. I think you do nothing on this blog but cause trouble. You love it. I would bet you that if you had to sign your name on this blog, this comment would have never reached your computer.
3:54 PM, July 25, 2008
10:54 Now you want us to believe that other cities are using this site? I don't believe that; it's just another lie that you tell because you like to stir up the troops. Prove it and I'll bet you can't. Just another way to confuse people on your part.
3:54 you clueless piece of old road kill, I pay sales tax to Crestwood and property tax to Crestwood and utility tax to Crestwood and personal property tax to Crestwood, I pay tax to Crestwood for my cable t.v..
And you call that a free ride?
Talk to me about integrity when you sign your name, you want to pay more to Crestwood because of some ill place guilt complex, well go the heck and do so, write a big check to ease your conscience.
If those who are in favor of the tax increase are going so low as to insult those (taker, free ride talk etc.) who they are asking more money from, the residents, it's a damn sad day in Crestwood.
4:12 "useless piece of road kill", is that what I am? Well when you sign your name, I will sign mine.
Steve Knarr feels the same way I do if you want to read the Times Newspaper today. I guess anybody that tells it like it is, is road kill to you.
Big deal, you pay your taxes. We all pay taxes and what is the portion Crestwood gets on all these taxes? So what you are saying is that all these entities are taxing you to death so you pay those; but you want to sacrifice what Crestwood needs when Crestwood hasn't been taxing you to death for ages!
Go ahead and be my guest. Go ahead and tell me that the 37 cents you have been paying Crestwood isn't low, because you and I and the rest of Crestwood has been living and thriving all these years on sales tax. So what would you call it? Compared to other cities, I call it a free ride in Crestwood.
So take a big boy pill, soak your head, jump out of your seat, beat up your dog, and do whatever calms you down; but don't call me a useless piece of road kill because remember, it takes one to know one.
5:49 Yeah it sure as heck is a sad day in Crestwood when a blogger can suggest that each city employee pay $11 out of their pocket to help save the city (check a previous blog comment).
It will get even more sad when the city goes up in flames because everybody wants and expects Crestwood to thrive and give them all the services they have always received but on a budget that is cut to the bare bones.
That's OK with me because I have argued for this tax increase and the minute I do, the name calling starts.
I still think that when people hear the word tax, they could be given a million legitimate reasons why we need one; but it's a turn off and it isn't going to matter what the reasons are. They will find something to negate it.
You can have meetings and they will be extremely criticized, you can show them charts and graphs, and you can make a movie to illustrate the need; but people will find a way to make it all bad.
When Crestwood ends up like some indigent North St. Louis neighborhood, or goes County, you can bet they will all be first in line bitching about it.
Go ahead and name call; I still have my rights just as you do and I say we need one.
What's funny about the whole tax issue that is on the ballot now is that lots of these same people who don't want the tax increase were so excited to build a 14.5 million dollar police station. Go Figure
"We wont be fooled again"
Pete Townsend
Why is it sad to ask a City Employee to pay $11.00 a month out of their pocket but it is ok to ask the Citizen to do the same thing?
You realize that the current levels of the City employees pay is because of the sales tax they have been paid with? So if sales go down, doesn't it follow that their salary's also go down?
Instead we just had a Dept Head give raises to 10 employees in direct violation of the Charter.
Sorry friend, guilt trips are something only my mother can pull over on me.
Vote NO ON PROP 1
6:45 PM, July 25, 2008
What rubbish.
7:01 PM, July 25, 2008
Yes, go figure. Figure an increase in utility taxes, because that is what Crestwood got from 06 to 07. Figure an increase in property taxes, because that is what Crestwood will get, mostly due to reassessments last year.
Figure an early Prop S payoff. Figure the aquatic center payoff around 2012.
But hey, let's raise taxes because milk is more expensive than it was 20 years ago and our tennis courts are crumbling. If you have the gall to go to senior citizens and young families in this town and tell them that, be my guest.
10:55 I will agree with you regarding how hard senior citizens and young families have to struggle with paying bills and all of us in between too.
I am sorry that you feel the tax increase isn't necessary. I have gone back and forth regarding the issue and I can see both sides.
However, if a person feels they cannot afford a tax increase, that is one thing and I can understand it and they should vote NO.
What offends me are all the people that are placing the blame for needing a tax increase on just this administration or this mayor for why it is on the ballot; when the real truth is, they cannot afford it, and it is too much for them to spend. They are having to struggle anyway, and then they listen to people who have never been happy with this administration in the first place and love to name bash city officials, which makes them even more stressed because then they feel they are being ripped off.
There are those who would rather use just this administration as a whipping post for why this tax increase was placed on the ballot and use this issue as a political tactic to sway people to vote NO.
If you use common sense, you should be able to undertand for yourself that this lack of funds didn't just happen. It started several years ago.
There are a whole set of circumstances that played into this issue; but people would rather crucify individuals and one administration for the reasons why.
Not being able to afford a tax increase sounds a lot better of a reason to me to vote No, and is more understandable than placing blame on this mayor or that CA or whoever they feel they can blame for nothing more than their political anger.
I am sincerely sorry if I was rude. Didn't mean to be, really!
6:56 so your real problem is anyone who disagrees with the mayor, not the tax increase.
Sorry, but I am against the tax increase because I agree WITH the Mayor and he said we didn,t need a tax increase.
I am not saying that disagreeing with this mayor is wrong, since now he feels we do need the tax increase, but to blame just him or this administration for the need for it is not fair. Putting the blame on him because he now sees a different picture regarding finances and not looking back to what happened to get to this point is wrong, in my opinion.
People should not just look at this adminitration for things that have been done improperly.
All these negatives that are being included in this tax increase issue by people who want to vote against it, seem to only point to the last 4 years when the problems go back much farther than that.
Previous administrations spent too much and nobody bothered to care.
You don't want a tax increase; neither do I but to blame only this mayor and this administration in my opinion is wrong. Just vote NO and be done with it instead of feeling like you have to justify your vote by chastising what is in front of you now.
Just don't blame this Mayor, how insightful.
Kind of like don't remind him of what he said in the past, cause it might come back to haunt him?
"I have a plan"
"We don't need a fancy computer just a couple of secy. with pencils"
"I want a one page budget that I can understand.
"I run the entire City, you just run one Ward."
"I wouldnt trust anyone with that amount of money, hell, I wouldn't trust my self" (first Prop 1)
"We will not sell bonds, these are notes, they are bond like but better"
Should I go on?
This mayor owns this attempted tax increase.
He was told over a year ago by J. Tate that there was a financial storm brewing for Crestwood but he made light of her and her forecast.
He has not made any cuts in the 3 years in office.
He wanted a sales holiday for back to school, while claiming we need a property tax increase.
He sat on the Ways and Means Committee that saw our cash reserves drop from $7 million to $2 million and did nothing.
He made fun of former C/A Myers for stating the City would need a tax increase.
He made fun of Alderman Miguel for asking last fall for a plan B for the 2008 budget.
He promised to have an open government yet has held behind closed door Executive Sessions where pay increases were approved.
None of these actions are because of a former Mayor or C/A, they are his and his alone.
Vote No because who knows how much money we really have and no spending cuts have been made.
1:15 Well good for you. I was just giving you my opinion.
But if you must, then blame Roy for the plaza problems and blame him for low sales tax revenues too. Guest he made that happen too. Sure he did; I remember well, when he thwarted people from going to the Plaza. Sure, he walked out on our busy highway 66 and told everyone in their cars, to turn around and go west to another plaza "we don't need you here". May as well make up a few lies while you are at it. Makes no difference to me what excuse you want to use to blame it all on him. You are just another one who makes this issue so cut and dry to suit your own personal attitudes cause the other administrations were all squeeky clean right? Our funds were never touched before Roy came in right?
If in your brain, you feel better blaming him for everything, then blame the rest of the board of aldermen too. Oh that's right; just this mayor and no one else.
I can comment and say what I feel on this blog, just as you do. Further I really don't give a hoot about your ignorance to me or anyone else, cause one way or another, time will tell it all. It always does. I was just giving you my opinion. So bully for yours.
If you think we had all this money in the bank until Roy became mayor, you live in your own little, tiny world. Must be wonderful.
"In my brain" has nothing to do with the amount of money the City had at the end of 2006 vs the end of 2007. It's in the audits which you can find on the city's website.
Also I seem to recall the statements the Mayor made about Prop S as being needed to over come and correct the sending habits of previous Mayors and C/A's.
So why do we need Prop 1 if it is not due to THIS Mayors failure(s) to run the city based on the income it had vs. the political promises he made to get elected?
Oh yeah, one other thing, no has been ignorant to you, ok, so bully for you as well.
Folks, why argue over this "who done it issue?" On the 6th. of August things will still be the same in Crestwood, win or lose tax wise.
Remember, when we do have an answer reference the election we will either be out of the woods "again," or we will all have to work together to make the City run more efficiently.
I think we need to bury the hatchet (and not in each other,) so we can be ready to move forward ASAP!
Name calling will not sway one vote to your side, it may in fact work just the opposite, so think before you impugn!
Tom Ford
3:36 PM No one has been ignorant you say? Well judging from your comments back to me, I would have never known that.
My reasons and comments are just as good as yours. Too bad you have never gone far enough back in the books to see what was spent in 2002,3,4 and 5. if so, you may have seen a lot of spending going on and I am talking about board of aldermen minutes not an audit.
But I agree with Tom, that arguing doesn't change anybody's mind. However, I just resent implications made short term regarding finances when this issue goes back to lots of people making financial boo boo's.
If you want to stick it to this mayor because of his statements that he made before the election about not needing a tax increase, that is up to you. But I still contend that if you think that he only said these things to get elected, I still say it's because you never wanted him to be mayor to begin with; otherwise, you would give him the benefit of misjudgement just like you would do if it were somebody you supported. That my friend is called being biased and political. And political preferences don't always match the facts, all of them not jut the ones you want to factor into the situation.
End of subject.
Ok Bob, end of subject.
Ok Bob, end of subject.
Who's Bob?
9:37 That's the same question I ask. Who is Bob? The blogger obviously feels the need to name a person but it's not clear to me what his remark means.
Whoever the blogger is, I am apparently not on the same page as he/she.
Bob is never on the same page as any one else, you know know what I mean, folks?
Bob knows who he is, he always tells us his address.
No we don't know what you mean or who you mean. And maybe Bob is just a much better citizen than you who cares about Crestwood.
Maybe he does his own research and goes to all the board of aldermen meetings which you don't.
And maybe he is a long time resident of Crestwood's who has seen and heard all the political bull in this city for years and is tired of it.
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