Ladies and Gentlemen! a while ago it was said it can't be done!
In fact I was told that this "Blog" would never go anywhere! Some admonished me to close it down (thus denying a voice to the masses,) but we continued!
As we approach the magic 100,000Th hit (soon to come,) I feel a very large "thank you!" is in order to all of you who have so eloquently stated your case on these humble pages!
I said it at the beginning, and it's worth repeating here that this is your forum to tell us all how you really feel, and with the help of God, and all of you, I will continue to publish it!
Now, what do we do to celebrate the number 100,000? Well, I thought that I would award the person who was number 100,000 an 8x10 full color photo of me in swim attire, but they might be "anonymous" so that's out (thank goodness!) Next I thought of a special plack to be awarded to number 100,000, but again, what about "anonymous?"
Well, I finally decided that I have no idea what to do to celebrate this "milestone?" So I am going to leave it up to all of you to suggest it (And no, I will not shut it down!) Please use this thread for your suggestions (clean, nice, and concise.)
Again, a very large THANK YOU! For reading and writing here, for without ALL of you number 100,000 could never have been accomplished!
FLASH! HIT NUMBER 100,000 WAS COMPLETED ON WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 2008!
Tom Ford
NO. 542
As we approach the magic 100,000Th hit (soon to come,) I feel a very large "thank you!" is in order to all of you who have so eloquently stated your case on these humble pages!
I said it at the beginning, and it's worth repeating here that this is your forum to tell us all how you really feel, and with the help of God, and all of you, I will continue to publish it!
Now, what do we do to celebrate the number 100,000? Well, I thought that I would award the person who was number 100,000 an 8x10 full color photo of me in swim attire, but they might be "anonymous" so that's out (thank goodness!) Next I thought of a special plack to be awarded to number 100,000, but again, what about "anonymous?"
Well, I finally decided that I have no idea what to do to celebrate this "milestone?" So I am going to leave it up to all of you to suggest it (And no, I will not shut it down!) Please use this thread for your suggestions (clean, nice, and concise.)
Again, a very large THANK YOU! For reading and writing here, for without ALL of you number 100,000 could never have been accomplished!
FLASH! HIT NUMBER 100,000 WAS COMPLETED ON WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 2008!
Tom Ford
NO. 542
posted by Crestwood Independent at 09:04
73 Comments:
Mr. Ford,
I'd like to take some of the credit for your blog's amazing growth that really too off after I shut down my blog. (just JOKING)
Congrats and thanks again for your service to our Nation.
tim
trueblood
And well you should take credit Mr. Trueblood, it is a direct result of your, and everyone else's efforts to post here that it has reached this milestone!
Your blog, and this one should be a guiding light to all those that think no one cares or listens to them!
I am glad your on my side here, as well as the Crestwoodians out in cyberland who have decided to "keep a wary eye on the hen house."
For those of you that see nothing strange up there, I salute you for your tenacious guarding of your chosen ones, and may you never stop!
My Lord if I keep this up I may actually learn to write and spell the King's English (English Teacher wife not withstanding!)
Tom Ford
Tom,
Please read the article in this weeks Times about Veteran Crestwood officer Frank Arnoldy. Read his background experience and education.
Now please tell me what our current Police Chiefs background experience and educations is other than being a FOR(friend of Roy)?
thanks
4:39 PM blogger: I know of what you post here, and I can understand your question!
At first blush, Frank Arnoldy was the obvious choice, and I would have selected him in a nano second! However, I was told that he was going to retire soon, and did not want the job when Mike was promoted.
That said, it's obvious that that was not true as Frank is still there! I guess believing in the words of this administration was something I should have never done, but I did!
The Chief is a marine Corps Vet. with many years of experience in police work, as well as here in Crestwood. At the time I believed that since Frank Arnoldy was retiring, he was indeed the best choice for the job. Now that I see Frank is not retiring, I have very mixed emotions, as I feel once again "duped," and I am not a happy camper!
Well, all that as it may be, Mike is the chief, and I will support him 100% unless he proves otherwise to me, I think he back's his officers, and he will go to bat for them, and that is VERY, VERY important to any street officer I have ever known!
Tom Ford
Thank you Tom for your honest answer. Now if I may one more question,
How much influence do you feel Rob Goldterman had in the Mayor naming current Police Chief?
6:26 PM blogger: I have no idea if Rob Golterman had any input on the PROMOTION of the chief, but if he did, well that would be very interesting to say the least!
I think he would stay out of that aspect of the job, but one never knows!
Tom Ford
So what have these 100,000 hits accoplished?
Have you brought Crestwood Back?
Have you smeared people?
Is the City doing better financially?
Do we have a strong mayor in place?
Why is this such a milestone?
Please explain why it is something to celebrate and praise you for?
7:54 PM blogger: Well for starters I gave a person such as yourself, no matter how ridiculous a chance to spout off!
And then I allowed the real, honest citizens of Crestwood a voice in politics.
But my greatest achievement was to allow a devout coward such as yourself the chance to hide under the cloak of anonominity while you spew your vile rancor!
Yes, even you are allowed to post here, you can boost what's left of your self esteem secure in the knowledge that no one will ever know just how "tough" you really aren't!
Blog away oh brave soul, for even people like you are welcome!
Tom Ford
'So what have these 100,000 hits accoplished?'
It's a forum or a place to rant, rave, talk, discuss, complain, or tell a joke or two. I enjoy it and I hope you and others do to. And Tom, thanks! Do I get upset at some of the things said on the blog. Sure, but I want to read what people are thinking, whether or not I agree.
'Have you brought Crestwood Back?'
That's in process and will take much more than a blog to do that.
'Have you smeared people?'
Smeared them with what?
'Is the City doing better financially?'
Yes, careful planning and cuts that were made a couple of years ago.
'Do we have a strong mayor in place?'
He thinks he's strong, that's for sure. I think he tends to bully, but that's my opinion.
'Why is this such a milestone?'
A big number. A lot of people check it out.
'Please explain why it is something to celebrate and praise you for?'
It provides us a forum to rant, rave, talk, discuss, complain, or tell a joke or two. Happy blogging and thanks Tom!
You are right, Frank Arnoldy, who has been command staff for years, did apply for that position, and was the obvious choice. He was not offered the position, and would have gladly accepted it had it been offered, and the officers would have gladly seen that rightful promotion occur.
The mayor made it clear from his first day who he intended to put into that position, having been buddies with Mike Pailou a long time, despite the fact that Mike was only a sergeant, well below the rank and experience of Captain Arnoldy, and has no knowledge of processes at a department head level. It also seems that Mike is continuing in that tradition with his recent promoting of two officers to sergeant, despite their obvious lack of seniority and experience, one of whom happens to be the son of friends of the mayor.
Many were hoping that the recent talk of looking into the practices at the police department and the mass exodus of employees would bring to light some of what employees have been dealing with, but apparently the aldermen haven't heard enough yet.
The Aldermen are not the people who need to hear it. The City Administrator is the one who needs to know of this as he is the Boss of all the Department Heads.
The Charter is clear that the Aldermen and Mayor may not interfere with the Dept.Heads in the running of their departments.
The BOA can ask the C.A to look into something they have been made aware of but they themselves can not.
Read ARTICLE V, Section 5.2 (b) and (c) of the Charter for a clear picture of the C/A's power in the matters Poster 10:08 has brought up in their post.
10:08 and 11:51 PM bloggers: Well they all have now as I sent them both of your messages this AM!
We shall see what happens now, but we NEED TO HAVE a full investigation of the recent promotions to bring this to light!
Would anyone from the police department be willing to speak to the Civil Service Board so we can get the ball rolling?
Remember, "All it takes for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing!" (Disraeli)
Tom Ford
I happened to be reading a Masonic Scottish Rite Magazine last night, and a small poem struck me, so I shall share it with you.
"Winds of Fate"
Ella Wheeler Wilcox
"One ship drives east and another drives west with the self same winds that blow.
'Tis the set of the sails and not the gales which tell us which way to go.
Like the winds of the sea are the ways of fate, as we voyage along through life:
'Tis the set of the soul that decides the goal, and not the calm or the strife."
What is the "set of the soul" in Crestwood these day's? Have we lost our moral compass? Have we given in to the powers who would bluster from their lofty perch on the Dias in order to silence us?
What have we seen recently from some of our our elected officials?
A resident, and a Board member told they could not speak, an Alderman or two being berated for daring to bring up a subject?
There can be no doubt that we have strayed from our true bearing, and we are off course completely, but that can (and must) change!
I am calling on the Mayor, the Board, and all who would be leaders in our community to move this City back to the course set for it by the people who laid out our Charter!
Follow the Charter, not what you think is the Charter. This is still America, we are still all free to speak our minds, and those that would shout us down should read the section on "remedies."
Tom Ford
The problem with conducting any type of investigation into alledged 'wrongdoing' in the city, is that a few years back Roy 'released' all board and committee members and appointed all new people, who were friends and supporters of his campaign. He's continuing to try to use those positions as rewards for people who work on his tax increase committee.
When you have this many supporters on boards such as sign committee, police board and civil service, those boards become part of the corrupt system, and don't offer the proper set of checks and balances they are supposed to provide. During any investigation, they will lend an air of validity when it looks as though an 'independent' committee evaluated and took part in and investigation.
I don't know whether this process of appointments is covered by Charter, or how it is established, but something that would be beneficial to employees, residents and aldermen trying to keep things on the up and up, would be rather than having these be appointments of the mayor, have them be appointments of aldermen on a rotating basis for residents of their respective wards.
The BOA has the right to turn down his appointments. Which Alderman Miguel tried to do at last meeting. The best he could do since he could not get enough votes, was to get appointment tabled.
The Civil Service Board in it's current not changed membership meet this past Thursday. Does anyone know the results of their meeting and any actions that has come about since their meeting?
5:59 PM blogger: If you know the members of this curent board, you know that a vote was taken and I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the affirmative!
This has got to stop! The board, and the Mayor must conform to the wishes of the citizens of Crestwood, or resign, period!
For the sake of all of us, will these people see the light, or do we need to start recall petitions?
Tom Ford
Tom,
In your 6:55/9/1/08 post you asked for an investigation into the two promotions. It is my understanding that the chief of Police is a department head and as such has the authority with the blessing of the C/A and the BOA to promaote those individuals he feels have distinguished themselves leaders.
Case in Point, are we not getting ready to elect a new President of the United States with a limited experience?
6:00 PM on the 31st.
Yea, Paillou will back his officers until his neck is on the line. See which direction he heads then!
Thank you Tom, for this vital, important voice for our community. If not for your wisdom, leadership and this outstanding forum, our community would be a tattered mess. Thanks to you, our budget is balanced, our mall is full and thriving, there is prosperity and peace at City hall. You, and your blog are the an important source of truth. I appreciate how you stand up for what you believe and take a stand. You squelch all rumors and only allow kind words to be said about people. It is no wonder you have had so many hits on this blog. It is such an important contribution to our city. You deserve an award. Thanks so much and I will keep reading!
2:25 I agree 100%. Glad you got the courage to say it. I lost mine. I just kept going down and down, until I was almost one of them.
I recently learned that the residency requirement was 'waived' for our new city administrator Jim Eckeridge. My question is why? I don't recall a city administrator ever living outside of Crestwood before. Meyers, Greer, Lickliter, they all relocated here when they were hired.
If Crestwood isn't good enough for these people to live in, then why should they be running our city? Hey, maybe we should just start going outside to elect our mayor and aldermen as well, let them live in Shrewsbury or Sunset Hills.
I don't know where Mr. Eckeridge lives or why it's better than here, but the city's policy of these folks living in town should not be dismissed. As far as I know, the only people remaining in positions of authority in Crestwood that actually do live here are the fire chief, Karl Kessler, the assistant fire chief, Mark Menning, and the assistant police chief, Frank Arnoldy. Our current police chief doesn't even live in St. Louis County, but in Jefferson County, a long commute for an emergency.
Just more examples of why Crestwood isn't running well. The people running the town go home at night to another town.
Well You can't expect police officers to live in the city! They aren't paid enough to afford a house in Crestwood... Most your officers live in Jefferson County.
2:25 PM blogger: Gee I just love it when you try to get too cute by a half!
You became so overly zealous that I had to delete one of your posts (both the same.)
As I read you post, I started to wonder who you might be, and why you seem so upset with a blog that (according to you) does nothing?
I wondered, BOA member. prop 1 committee member, Mayor? And the it hit me, why the answer is none of the above!
In fact I decided that your no doubt a person who has done NOTHING for Crestwood except whine and complain, so in that case, I understand!
Tom Ford
4:31 PM blogger: Mr. Ekrich lives in Fenton, in a home he purchased before the housing crunch. there is no way for him to sell his home now, and move into Crestwood, as you can't give a House away in the curent economic climate!
I have no problem with his living there, or with any City employee living outside the City as long as they are on time for work.
St. Louis City has had a "residency requirement" for quite some time now, and most everyone I have ever talked to dosen't want to live there!
Crestwood has many problems much, much bigger than "residency" to deal with, so I suggest we start to do so.
Tom Ford
2:47 PM blogger: Watch a re-run of "The Wizard of Oz," you just might get your courage back! Nah, probably not!
Tom Ford
2:25 PM, September 02, 2008
Now now. Enough of the sarcasm. It was pretty thick and I wasn't prepared. I didn't have my shovel and boots.
I detect that you have some concerns for our fine city. Well, never fear, we have wise and learned men up at city hall that follow the rule of law, the spirit of the law, the city codes, and the charter. We have a mayor who guides our fine city with a touch of humility and concern. He is open to any and all new ideas and allows each alderman or citizen speak their mind. We have aldermen who consistently offer new ideas. They are courteous to citizens and each other. We have an economic development program that has filled our shops with merchants, so much so that Watson Road is overfull and robust; a proud example of the free market economy.
Yes, the government of Crestwood is a fine example of this great experiment called a Democracy. The Founding Fathers would be so proud.
The residency requirement for these people was never a question in the past, and it shouldn't be now. If they want these jobs, they should be willing to live here, no matter what the housing market is like. We aren't talking about police officers, firemen, or any others, just those that are running the city.
I also have a problem with those same people getting 'take home cars'. Are we also paying their gas to drive to their homes outside of Crestwood? There may be bigger problems, but they start with the basics.
8:12--why dont you go to a meeting and complain about this? Why dont you schedule an appointment with Jim Eckrich and say this to his face? Instead, just bitch about it on this blog. That is a better idea.
Ok, I'll just complain on this blog - over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and...
over again!
Tom, what have you done for Crestwood?
I'll let Tom fill you in but I can answer that-
Resident and taxpayer for 40 years
Served on Planning and Zoning
Ran for aldermen
Supported other candidates
Supported or worked on various political issues
Involved in law enforcement as are his two sons
Tom's contributed a great deal to his community.
2:01, By what right do you have to ask Tom or for that matter anyone else, and expect an answer, when you will not sign your name to your question?
tim
trueblood
2:01 PM blogger: Well I gave you the chance to wear your little fingers to the bone typing here!
That plus what was said above should be enough for you, but in case it isn't, please let me add the following:
V.P. Crestwood Khoury League (70's)
Commander, Crestwood VFW Post 3953 (80's)
Explorer Scout adviser (St.E's, 80's)
Bon Vivant, and all around handsome wretch!
And you?
Tom Ford
The same rights that 99% of the other bloggers on this forum have--anonymous posting. And therein lies the problem with Blogs. Anonymity. Taking potshots at people. Unwillingness to say things to someone's face that you can say behind the curtain of anonymity. That is the problem with this blog. That is why it has not been a benefit to Crestwood. Unfortunatley, some of the people who volunteer on behalf of the city, and city employees get smeared, questioned, criticized and referred to by names such as sacred cow. Get the picture?
It is okay to be anonymous on this blog as long as you agree with Tom. But when you don't WATCH OUT! He bites back. Sceered
Has anyone read the call yet?
7:14 I understand what you are saying and I do get the picture.
But by signing your name on the blog, even when you are just trying to make an honest comment toward the primary purpose of it, has resulted in anonymous bloggers hitting way below the belt.
You sign your name, but they don't sign there's. Talk about getting flu-like symptoms after they get done bashing you! It's hurtful. And after the hurt, you end up getting angry and retaliating and the fighting and harsh words ensue. Bloggers just have a field day with your emotions and absolutely relish in it.
Signing your name and getting stabbed after having the courage to sign your comment, can be harmful to your health. Especially if you feel differently from the majority of people who comment on this blog.
Tom has changed and I sincerely don't know how or why. And I wasn't going to comment any more on this blog because of it.
But I am truly upset and feel sorry for those who are now receiving blows and knocks by the bloggers and I, therefore, would like to say something.
For instance,the secretary, Helen, who supposedly was involved in the Prop. l issue and "admitted it" or so it has been said. No Mercy says Tim Trueblood as he holds up the Charter like it is his bible. According to my interpretation of his comments on this blog, no circumstances surrounding this issue should be taken into consideration. He is clear cut in his opinion. To town square for execution she should go, as far as he is concerned.
Also, the police chief regarding the pay raises. Now also being questioned about where he lives out of the city, when other chiefs (Chief Loyd) also did not live here. It's a Big deal now, along with everything else they can find. Never before was this made an issue out of; but now, it's different. By the time the the bloggers are done with people, you can't even recognize them from their skeletal remains.
Also now we have Carol Wagner whose appointment to the Civil Service Board is questioned because she was part of the Prop. 1 committee. What if Carol Wagner was on a committee "against" the tax increase? Would that be OK? Did she organize the reverse 911 deal and use city money or was that someone else? No one seems to care. But maybe Jerry Miquel can find out, since he turns everything inside out anyhow. That said, it wouldn't matter to him anyway; just belonging to that committee would blackball you in his opinion.
Since she was "for" the tax, should she now be punished and not be allowed to serve on any other board or commission when she has always been community minded for many, many years? Let's just brand her with a "scarlet letter" because she felt the increase was needed.
Like in the dark ages, maybe she should be shunned in public by residents.
Also, I now hear that the mayor is not suppose to appoint anybody he knows to a seat on boards and commissions. Who should he appoint? Somebody he saw in Schnucks for the first time? Maybe a jogger or someone walking their dog!!! According to some bloggers, it would be better for him if he did.
Mayors have always appointed people they either know or someone that was suggested to them. And always with the approval of the board of aldermen. Of course, Jerry Miquel might want to run them through the police department to make sure they never got a traffic ticket!!!! Talk about overkill! He asks one question, someone answers it, and he has 10 more. Give me a break.
The secretary's position has made the news, even though it still has not been solved to the satisfaction of everyone. Should she be made guilty before a hearing even starts? And should Jerry Miquel be allowed to bring this personnel issue up at a board of aldermen meeting where the press is ready, willing and able to make it news the next day?.
Personnel matters are not suppose to be discussed at board of aldermen meetings for that reason. You see why open meetings should be taboo? People get hurt. So much for your "open meetings" idea like I hear a million times on this blog; "everything should be out in the open". Oh Yeah only when it suits you. Jim Robertson gets to retire for personal reasons. No "open meeting" for that issue was there. Heaven's No.
Yes, this blog can seriously be harmful to one's health.
Now, TT, I don't care to hear your barking at me because you disagree. If you do, so be it. No need to make this a big debate. If you don't like what I say, that makes us even because I don't like what you say either. I have a right to say what I feel just like you have a right to fight dirty.
I have had over 30 years to see and hear it all in Crestwood. Some of it is great, the rest of politics.
Sandy Grave
Sandy,
What do you mean by fighting dirty?
The Charter is the rule book of the City. People take oaths to obey it.
When it is broken, there are actions out lined in the Charter to remedy that which was violated.
My question to you is simply, when should the Charter be obey when should be ignored? And who should make that call?
Is that fighting dirty?
TT
Tim, Thanks for your reply.
As you can tell, I am up tight about this.
I don't know Helen but
I am concerned for her; whereas, you are concerned about the people who took the oath to follow the Charter, which is not Helen. She is not a boss. Someone dropped the ball here, but it wasn't her.
You want accountability; so do I. But in your comments, you make it sound like those persons responsible for investigating this issue, should not take into consideration her circumstances. She had no supervisor.
I think you and I are drawing the line differently, although we both feel strongly about the Charter and Civil Service.
But it sounds as if you want the secretary to be punished as well as those who should have been overseeing her job.
I will never believe that Helen knowingly jeopardized her job by doing something illegal. I do believe that she felt that it was OK to participate in the Prop. 1 Committee.
You say she admitted it. What did she admit, Tim? That she was going to participate in something that was unlawful? Did she say, "I knew that I was breaking the City of Crestwood Charter and I did it anyway?"
You know what I am really upset about Tim? Why did Jerry Miquel feel it necessary to bring this personnel issue up at the board of aldermen meeting? That just angers me to no end. That girl didn't deserve to have that brought out in the open before it was totally investigated.
Tim, don't you think I know that the rules are the rules? But this issue had to do with an employee and should not have been discussed in front of residents, the press, and everybody else.
Now we have a City Administrator. Why can't we just place this in his hands? The city administrator is in charge of personnel and the day to day operations of the city. Let him make a decision.
For people to talk on this blog about employee issues before the process even begins, is wrong. And I just feel that to infer at a board of aldermen meeting, or on this blog that an employee is guilty of an illegal act before it is even investigated is defemation of character and goes against due process.
In closing, Tim, I will tell you that I thank you for your reply and appreciate it. But I will also sit here and tell you, first hand, that when this whole deal is over, and it does come to pass that Helen is not to blame, because it was brought out at a board meeting, and because she has the position of secretary to the mayor and city administrator, she will always be guilty and marked from that day forward by many. Jerry Miquel put her right in the middle of this whole thing and no matter what happens, her name will be mud. Trust me, I know.
Sandy Grave
from callnewspapers.com
Crestwood citizens question intent of city-advertised meetings on tax increase
'Legal staff' OK'd information in newsletter, mayor says
BURKE WASSON
Staff Reporter
July 30, 2008 - Some Crestwood residents have questioned the intent of a series of city-advertised town-hall meetings on a proposed six-year, 35-cent tax-rate increase on the Aug. 5 ballot.
While the city's Crestwood Connections newsletter advertised the meetings as "Prop 1 information town hall meetings," the presentations at such meetings have been given by a campaign committee of Crestwood citizens in favor of the tax-rate increase.
The group Crestwood Residents for Prop 1 paid $160 to the city for the use of the Crestwood Government Center and the Community Center at Whitecliff Park as sites for the four town-hall meetings this month. Besides publishing the meetings in the newsletter, city officials also authorized the use of reverse 911 telephone calls to residents on July 12 to inform them of the meetings. While three meetings already have taken place, the last was set at 7 p.m. Wednesday, July 30, at the Community Center in Whitecliff Park.
City Administrator Jim Eckrich said it is common practice for the city to use its dispatching service for reverse 911 calls to advertise town-hall meetings.
"Any time in the past the city's had a town-hall meeting, the reverse 911s have been sent out," he said. "They were sent out in this case. These meetings are ward town-hall meetings where the citizens for Prop 1 group is giving a presentation. That group is paying for the use of the room based upon the use of the city's equipment to try to avoid the appearance of the city supporting the tax. So the reverse 911 was sent out when these were advertised in the newsletter as town-hall meetings."
But some residents question the propriety of the city using public resources to promote meetings presented by a group with a bias in favor of the tax increase.
"That doesn't strike me as a town-hall meeting," former Ward 2 Alderman Tim Trueblood said during the July 22 town-hall meeting. "That's not the same thing. I question strongly the legality of having that published in the Crestwood Connections at my tax-dollar expense to have a pro anything or a negative anything published on what's supposed to be a neutral position in a government publication."
Mayor Roy Robinson told Trueblood that City Attorney Rob Golterman approved of the advertisement in the Crestwood Connections and said "everything is approved by the legal staff before it goes out."
Besides listing the dates and sites of each of the four town-hall meetings, the newsletter urged residents to "please attend the Town Hall meetings held in July so that you can obtain all the facts and have your questions answered. We need your help to bring our city back."
But Ward 3 Alderman Jerry Miguel pointed out to Crestwood Residents for Prop 1 member Terry Freeman, who conducted presentations at the town-hall meetings, that the group was presenting an incomplete picture of the city's finances.
The group's financial presentation on July 22 focused on one of the city's three funds. Freeman's presentation highlighted sections of the city's 2007 audit regarding the general fund, but offered no information from the audit on the capital-improvement fund or park and stormwater fund.
Executive Secretary Helen Ingold told those present July 22 that the information presented at each meeting was provided by Freeman and not city officials.
"This gentleman, Mr. Freeman, who I believe is a part of the group, not only contacted us, but provided every one of us and every one of the aldermen with the information he would be presenting this evening," Ingold said. "That was my understanding of the process."
Freeman emphasized at the July 22 meeting that while residents can vote how they wish, those present "will hear a bias" from his group.
"The point is to provide, in our view, a fact-based background that really better enables an informed voting decision," Freeman said. "... You're going to vote how you're going to vote. This is about giving you another set of facts that enables you to do that. The city can provide information with respect to what is on the ballot, but they really can't politick for it. The board put the vote to us as the people, but the employees can't politick for it on their time and whatnot. And we believe strongly enough in the issue to do it ourselves to pay the rent, to pay the materials, et cetera.
"So you will hear a bias and you understand that there's a bias. I'm someone who's standing in front of you who isn't bias free. But the point is we want you to be better informed to enable whatever your vote is."
Crestwood Residents For Prop 1 Chairwoman Char Braun said the meetings were scheduled to offer another avenue besides Board of Aldermen meetings for residents to learn more about the ballot proposal.
"It's not about right or wrong, win or lose," Braun said. "It's not about that. There are people here that don't come to board meetings. I see most of the people in this room that don't come. This might be the only way they get information. They can't go online maybe. Maybe they don't get the newsletters. I don't know. We're trying to get people information. They are deciding for themselves."
As for the issue of whether the city maintained an unbiased position by publishing the group-conducted meeting dates in the city newsletter and advertising them through reverse 911 telephone calls, Robinson contended that "it was neutral."
"Is this meeting neutral?" Trueblood asked.
"This meeting is neutral," Robinson said.
"Well, it's not a town-hall meeting," Trueblood said.
"Well, it is not a town-hall meeting, but we have nothing to do with it," Robinson said. "I'm sitting here because I'm a citizen of the community."
"What does that (newsletter) say?" Trueblood said. "It says town-hall meeting."
"Whatever it says, it was reviewed by legal and it's perfectly legal to put in that information," Robinson said. "We didn't say yea or nay or what we want."
"Is that legal?" Trueblood said. "Did our attorney approve of this?"
"You betcha," Robinson said. "Everything is approved by the legal staff before it goes out."
"Well, if somebody from let's say Mothers Against Drunk Driving wanted to have a meeting and asked if it would be published in the Crestwood Connections for the residents, would you do that?" Civil Service Board member Martha Duchild asked.
"Certainly we would," Robinson said.
"Then any other group that wants to advertise meetings in Crestwood could?" she asked.
"If it's informational about the meetings, you bet," Robinson said.
"Just buy the room and supply the materials," Freeman said.
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c100-199/1150000646.htm
Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 115
Election Authorities and Conduct of Elections
Section 115.646
August 28, 2007
Public funds expenditure by political subdivision officer or employee, prohibited--personal appearances permitted.
115.646. No contribution or expenditure of public funds shall be made directly by any officer, employee or agent of any political subdivision to advocate, support, or oppose any ballot measure or candidate for public office. This section shall not be construed to prohibit any public official of a political subdivision from making public appearances or from issuing press releases concerning any such ballot measure.
(L. 1988 H.B. 933, et al. ยง 1)
Sandy,
Why not let the civil service board investigate the issue?
I believe these issues occurred before Mr. Eckrich was appointed City Administrator. I'm not sure why the board was reluctant to do let the civil service board investigate.
If we let a private campaign committee such as citizens for prop 1 use city resources, then how far does it go? Can I borrow the fire truck for a party? What about a police car?
When did Jerry Miguel mention Helen Ingold by name? I don't recall that, maybe he did but I can't recall it. I recall he wanted an investigation. And although you don't like it, it's refreshing to have someone like Jerry Miguel analyze issues. Better that than being a rubber stamp. I want an elected official who makes decisions very carefully.
Please compare these statements:
from callnewspapers.com
Crestwood citizens question intent of city-advertised meetings on tax increase
'Legal staff' OK'd information in newsletter, mayor says
BURKE WASSON
Staff Reporter
""Whatever it says, it was reviewed by legal and it's perfectly legal to put in that information," Robinson said. "We didn't say yea or nay or what we want."
"Is that legal?" Trueblood said. "Did our attorney approve of this?"
"You betcha," Robinson said. "Everything is approved by the legal staff before it goes out.""
Now look at this:
from timesnewspapers.com
Mistakes Were Made
Crestwood may have acted improperly in promoting Aug. 5 tax increase measure
by Eileen P. Duggan
08/22/2008
"Mayor Roy Robinson said that if he had anything to do with authorizing the newsletter listing or the 911 calls, "I would be the first to say so. I had nothing to do with it. I did not know anything about it.""
Now wait a minute. He first says that everything is approved by legal staff before it goes out. Then later he says he had nothing to do with it and did not know anything about it. So which is it?
Sandy,
I did not post Helen's name. Who is her supervisor (C/A)? Who is the C/A's supervisor (mayor)?
TT
OMG, here we go again with the Sandy show.
Dear Tim, and 3:03 and 3:12.
First and most importantly no need to quote the city law or the newspapers. I understand what you are saying.
Secondly, no need to quote the mayor. This isn't about the mayor, can't anybody understand that? It's putting the "little guy" in the middle, and it isn't right. "Her name wasn't mentioned"! Pleez! People, by nature, are curious and will find out who she is. They call city hall and find out who is in charge of the newsletter. Very Simple. You think because her name wasn't mentioned, it isn't going to leak out and it makes it OK? It always leaks out. Further, if she is punished for it, it won't stand up in court that's for sure. Knowing the people on this blog, it's like the biggest gossip column in the City. It stand for "nothing to get the city back", it stands for "politics" in every nook and crany. If she is found guilty by association, she is allowed due process and she may have to file her own lawsuit to get justice. OMG heaven help her.
Then you defend Jerry and say it was perfectly OK for him to speak of a personnel matter at a board meeting cause he never mentioned her name? Yes or No. You don't have to be a private detective to find out her name. Come on.
He knew it was a personnel matter and did it anyway. What does the "Charter" say about that since we are splitting hairs to defend Jerry?
Hear we go again Tim; you defend the city official and leave the girl standing in "do do". Who comes up stinking the girl or the official?
Your comment Tim is exactly what I am saying. It is all about "the mayor" and getting back at him. She is being used and is stuck in the middle of this whole deal.
If you daughter (who I have met and adored for many years) worked for Crestwood and did the newsletter, even though nobody knew her name or knew who she was, would you like Jerry Miquel to raise questions about her at a board of aldermen meeting? Who was Helen suppose to raise questions to if she didn't think she did anything wrong? I would not have gone to the mayor and asked him anything. After all, she did the newsletter before and was never put under scrutiny.
Tim, I am trying to make a point here. Can't you see what I mean? The mayor is elected; she is not. If you want to fault the mayor for anything, leave the employees out of it and pursue it on a different format.
Jerry Miquel would question the purchase of a new toilet for city hall. You call that common sense, I call it overkill. He obviously is good with numbers; but bad with human beings. He goes around questioning everything, but not himself.
Thank you for your consideration.
Sandy Grave
9:40 Oh it's you again. You have a problem with me? Tough. I was answering Tim Trueblood. If you don't like it, skip over to the next comment.
Sandy Grave
Every employee is given a civil service copy when they are hired. If employee's don't take the time to read the rules, then they have left theirselves open. Besides when your boss ask you to do something while working that doesn't pertain to your job. That little voice should be going off in your head.
Prop#1 was all for the tax increase and had nothing to do with anything else but to get it passed. When employee's are asked to help and then told if anyone comes asking, you did this on your own time. That's wrong and the powers that be know it. No one is going to lie for them when push comes to shove.
This is coming out one way or another, and believe me the right hand(Mayor) knows what the left hand(Paillou) is always doing.
Sandy,
First and foremost, this IS about the mayor, the board, and the administration. City resources were used for a private campaign committee. It is the board and the mayor's duty to see that codes and the charter is followed. Have you seen how Roy has treated people lately? Did you read his quotes?
Second, when did Jerry Miguel mention Helen Ingold's name? You never did answer that. You've mentioned her name on this blog, but I can't find were Jerry did. I'm not saying he did not, but I can't find where he mentioned her by name.
Third, "Knowing the people on this blog, it's like the biggest gossip column in the City." Well, blogs are a forum and you've been on this blog quite a bit.
Fourth, what are you saying? If an employee does something wrong, he or she should get a free pass? There should be no disciplinary actions for employees who violate the rules?
Sandy, you claim Tom Ford is the one who changed. Maybe. But maybe not. But I can tell you he was one of the biggest proponents for you to get a resolution after all of your years of service.
10:39 am Yeah sure, I am saying employees should get a free pass? Get real.
Jerry didn't have to mention her name. Her name was mentioned by several on this blog so people already knew it was about Helen. What Jerry did, however, was get the ball rolling. Everybody else took the ball and ran with it. In my view, it was not the proper time to mention any personnel issue. That too should be in the charter and civil service rules. Don't speak to me about civil service. It's great when it works and I hope this doesn't give Martha the idea that I don't know they are working hard to get it to work. Geez! It just doesn't do well against politics.
You feel Helen should be punished? Go for it. You think I am wrong. Good for you!
As far as Tom goes. It's a shame that Tom or others had to get me my resolution and I appreciate it. Conversely, I also ran my legs off to get him elected Alderman. That's how much I like Tom.
I am not happy with him lately and I told him that. I am not going behind his back about it. However, because he is getting involved in things that should be left alone, I don't agree with some of his comments.
I am sorry if you feel that my comments should not be made. If you were to peruse this blog, you will find that the secretary's name was known for several weeks. Jerry Miquel can go ahead and point fingers to whoever he wants, but names will come forth; they always do.
This blog was suppose to be a tool to better Crestwood. I see it as a place for people to get ugly and I will include some of my comments in that mix also.
To the previous blogger who says "it's the Sandy show" doesn't care about what I care about. They only want to make a joke out of me. I say stand in line; it's been done many times before.
I maintain that the secretary should not be included in this. That's how I feel. Just let me give my opinion, and thanks for at least being cordial about my thoughts on the subject.
Sandy Grave
You keep saying that the secretary shouldn't be included in this. I didn't know she was. You were the one that mentioned her name.
Then you attack Jerry for asking questions, but you say little about Roy and his behavior lately.
When city resources are allegedly used for a private entity, that should be a big concern to all. There are codes and rules (supposedly) to prevent such use. What happened with Prop 1, I don't know, but I'd like to find out.
10:16 "Further, if she is punished for it, it won't stand up in court that's for sure."
"If she is found guilty by association, she is allowed due process and she may have to file her own lawsuit to get justice."
You need to turn off Perry Mason and stop spouting things you know nothing about! You sound like a stupid jail house lawyer.
No! Her name was mentioned several times on this blog, you just didn't see it. She prepares the newsletter. Jerry talked about the composition of it, which includes her. People at city hall as well as residents know who does the newsletter. Because in the course of several years, people who call city hall to ask a question about the newsletter are referred to who? The City Attorney? NOT.
What was going to hold people back from stating her name to others now that Jerry Miquel lite the fire?? There sense of fair play or their conscience?.
The bloggers included her name in their comments, so don't play dumb with me. .
To answer your comment, "I say very little about Roy"? Honey, Roy is plastered all over this blog 99.9% of the time. Why do I need to say anything. If I were to say anything affirmative, I become a Roy Lover!! Tom still insists that "this blog is about bringing Crestwood back". I sure don't see it.
Hey let's end this. I say that if you got a beef against the mayor? Go after him. You got a beef with the mayor and want to include this secretary, I have a problem with it. And whether you want to believe it or not, people include her in this equasion.
You think Jerry Miquel was OK because he never mentioned the secretary, by name at the board of aldermen meeting, OK with me.
It was still a personnel matter because Jerry researched the composition and contents of the newsletter and was breaking it down as he spoke. She is the employee in charge of the newsletter and people on this blog are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.
You said yourself, "when city resources are "ALLEGEDLY" used for a private entity". So even though you say "allegedly" you already have your mind made up. Maybe this isn't about the secretary in your eyes, but not everybody else's including Mr. Miquel.
Sandy Grave
12:39 said "stupid jailhouse lawyer" Tom. There goes the name calling again. What are you going to do about it Tom? Let it go?
And whoever you are, Perry Mason I am not. But I can smell a bad lawyer a mile away. What did TT say about if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck?
Well quack quack to you.
Sandy Grave
Well sorry Sandy. But if there's a problem up at city hall, people want answers. I do. I want to find out who did what and when and who knew about it.
If you don't like Miguel, tough. There's a lot of people who do and are thankful for his service.
And interesting enough, you were fine with this blog until you disagreed with Tom over Prop 1. Now that you disagree with Tom, you are critical.
This excerpt is taken from The Call, Burke Wasson, Staff Reporter on July 30, 2008 and also part of a comment at 2:29 AM 9/4 on this blog.
IF YOU HAD READ THE COMMENT, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THE SECRETARY'S NAME WAS ALREADY IN THE NEWSPAPER IN JULY, WHICH MAKES YOUR "NO NAME GIVEN POINT MOOT), PLUS WHAT SHE SAID IS PIVITOL IN THIS ISSUE.
"Executive Secretary Helen Ingold told those present ON July 22 that the information presented at each meeting was provided by Freeman and not city officials". THIS COMMENT WAS MADE SO EVERYONE COULD BE SURE THAT OFFICIALS WERE NOT INVOLVED IN MAKING UP THE CONTENTS OF THE INFORMATION. BUT NOW LISTEN TO HER NEXT PARAGRAPH.
"This gentleman, Mr. Freeman, who I believe is a part of the group, not only contacted us, but provided every one of us and EVERYONE OF THE ALDERMEN WITH THE INFORMATION HE WOULD BE PRESENTING THIS EVENING". INGOLD SAID. "THAT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROCESS." (Freeman contacted the city and provided EVERY ONE OF THE ALERMEN WITH THE INFORMATION HE WOULD BE PRESENTING THAT EVENING.
So why would this secretary feel that she was doing something wrong in the newsletter, when all board members were contacted about it first?
Sandy Grave
WRONG. MY POINT IS NOT MOOT. YOU CLAIMED THAT JERRY MIGUEL MENTIONED HELEN INGOLD'S NAME. YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW ME WHERE HE DID.
Sandy,
There were two alderman that objected to said process - Miguel and Nieder - and one former alderman - Trueblood.
Reverse-911 and Crestwood Connections were used to get people to a meeting held by a private campaign committee.
1:56 You don't have to be sorry about anything. You can like Jerry all you want. I don't and that's my right.
Tom and I go back lots of years. You can think of me as shallow enough to be unhappy with him just because he disagrees with me. That is your take. That's a low punch but I have had them before.
I disagree with your view, but you have a right to say it if you so desire.
Bringing Crestwood back is not what I feel Tom is doing with his blog as I felt originally that was the motive behind it.
Also, since you feel that I am such a one dimensional person, and need to have everyone agree with me, I can therefore say that now you like Tom because he agrees with you. I just reversed your theory and use the same guideline you used.
Sorry you feel that way but have a good evening anyway.
Sandy Grave
Sandy,
You were the one that said Tom has changed.
"Tom has changed and I sincerely don't know how or why. And I wasn't going to comment any more on this blog because of it."
Bringing Crestwood back is not a blog's purpose. It is the board and the administration's job to do that. They haven't brought anything back, just tried to raise taxes. And who knows what is going to happen to the plaza.
Have a good evening too.
2:02 where did I say Jerry mentioned Helen's name. I said that everyone knew who he was talking about because everyone knows she does the newsletter. Get it. Her name was even in the Call newspaper. You think that just because he didn't mention her name that it was OK?
You got your wires crossed. He never had to mention her by name. If you would read the comments a little more, you would know what I said and what I meant.
No need to storm about it we got enough of that going on outside.
Gosh, Doggone. Now I see why you wish to remain anonymous. Enough with your ranting.
Tom you see what I mean. This is really bringing Crestwood back isn't it.
Sir, either get it straight and read all my words correctly or skip over my words. If you dislike what I say and want to take things out of context, please don't. Go have a drink somewhere and calm down.
Sandy Grave
2:20 Yes, you are correct about this administration; I do agree with you. But my gosh, when is all this fire and brimstone going to end.
Tom certainly didn't think that this whole blog was going to be dedicated to rath and discension; or at least I didn't think so.
I know exactly what you are saying however, and I appreciate your thoughts.
Tom knows me well and I am sure that he understands that being disappointed in some of the things he says and some of the issues he agrees with, might make me angry, but I am only human and I have strong feelings about my city. I love it you know.
Once you get a taste of that Crestwood water, you want to keep it, cherish it and protect it from harm.
Thanks again.
Sandy Grave
"Jerry Miquel put her right in the middle of this whole thing and no matter what happens, her name will be mud."
Sandy,
From your statement, Jerry Miguel brought her to the forefront. I don't see how he did that. He brought up an issue that needs to be addressed and quite frankly, if it deals with staff, it still needs to be addressed.
Reverse 911 and Crestwood Connections were used to get people to meetings held by a private campaign committee.
I don't have my wires crossed.
OMG, here we go again with the Sandy show.
9:40 AM, September 04, 2008
Luckly it wasn't re-runs from the 70's again. How many posts, 7,8,9 just this morning.
243. you're funny. I would rather read C Barrett's blog postings
2:32 OK Sir. I disagree and we agree to disagree.
2:43 Too bad you have to make fun of me to get enjoyment. And too bad you have to show your ignorance of someone else's pain. And too bad I know who you are even though you cowardly refuse to sign your ridiculous tripe.
Sandy
RECALL ROY
*don't forget why we are here*
I think what is interesting with this thread is the fact that a former employee is bravely standing up for someone who holds a position she used to have. What is even more interesting is that MS.Ingold is being left to swing in the wind by the Mayor, City Administrator, and who ever else may have instructed her to put put the City Newsletter that has caused all this ruckus.
The mayor has gone on record that he knew nothing about it,yet claims it was checked by legal staff, leaving the blame on legal and Ms. Ingold. There's a stand up kind of man that I would follow into battle (NOT). To MS. Ingold's credit she has not spilled the beans, she is protecting, and Sandy is backing Helen. Does any of this mean that the Mayor does not really write his bit in the Newsletter but Helen does?
The solution to all of this is for the Mayor to come clean.
5:44 Thanks for your comment and I want you to know that I appreciate it because it does not harbor hatred or inunendo and is clear and concise and to the point.
You and hardly any other bloggers understand what I am trying to say.
And yes, I feel that whoever was her boss, or her supervisor is the one who should take the heat. It matters not to me who it is. Someone dropped the ball right into Helen's lap. And yes, I am backing her because she is indeed a victim. What kind of power does she have? None. Her reputation is at stake. According to most, she is definitely in this equasion.
Her name was out since July in the newspaper. Call Burk Wasson of the Call if you don't believe me.
People yelling and screaming at me because I say what I feel is right. Do I not have the same privilege that they do?
What I dispise is the fact that when people want to fault her superior, no matter who it is, they are taking her down too.
I am firm on what I believe. I am not wishy washy, and it takes every bit of intestinal fortitude to hear people make fun of me for what I believe and to not fight back.
It is just like I said before, when people want to get back at the mayor, they take him down as well as everyone who is connected to him in some way.
Is this suppose to be some sort of purification exercise that she has to be sucked into this mess.
Sort of like a man who wants to do away with another man. But the man is in a room full of people that work for him. So to make sure he gets his guy, he does away with everybody in the room.?
Thank you for your consideration in this matter.
I've considered it and it doesn't make sense.
How could Helen be a victim? Nothing has happened to her yet.
No determination has been made about Helen;but that doesn't mean she isn't already guilty by association with her superiors. Read what people say about her on this blog. They link her with Roy. They dislike Roy, they dislike her and feel she should be punished.
The Call stated her name in an article in July. The Call's Burke Wasson did the article and if you read the article in it's entirity, which someone has placed on this blog, you will understand that it was her understanding that, even though the city did not write the contents that was presented at the Citizens for Prop. l meeting, that the board of aldermen were all suppose to get a copy of it and this was before the newsletter was published. If they had a problem with it, apparently nobody told her not to use it in the newsletter.
I am glad we have civil service and since they are investigating this issue, I am very glad they are. However, it still doesn't mean that people are not making it a big deal before the investigation is finished.
People talk especially in this town and it's always politics over people.
It would be wonderful if the Civil Service Board had some power in this city for a change. No matter what the outcome, I am confident they will be impartial and do a good job.
"It would be wonderful if the Civil Service Board had some power in this city for a change. No matter what the outcome, I am confident they will be impartial and do a good job.
3:15 PM, September 05, 2008"
I agree with your statement. Unfortunately, the Civil Service Board may be unable to investigate-
http://ci.crestwood.mo.us/docs/agendas_minutes/boa/2008_09_09/memo%20re%20civil%20service%20board%20investigation.pdf
3:26 PM blogger: Whether the Mayor and the BOA know it or not, the Civil Service Board has all the juice they need to get to the bottom of this!
How's that you say? Well If I were the chairman of the board, and I was to be denied access to anything, I would take it straight to Cathrine Hannaway, U.S. Attorney for the Eastern district, State of Missouri!
Being a Federal prosecutor she will have no ties to the elected officials, and does have the power to investigate any and all complaints reference the action of the City.
If the City will not cooperate with the Civil Service Board, well there are those that will!
Tom Ford
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