By now we all know that our Macy's store will close very soon!
Now we shall go into a period of dis-belief, mourning, what if, and general malaise complete with rending of garments, hand wringing, an the "usual" tax increase mantra!
On the surface this is not good at all, now is it, or is it? We now have a NEED for the leadership that has been so lacking at City Hall what with "yes men" on the Dias, and a mayor that said "remember it takes six!"
Can it be that now we shall see someone take the reins up there and DO SOMETHING ABOUT OUR "OPPORTUNITY?" I have an idea "Your Honor," since the retail tax holiday you slammed into place over the BOA's objection was such a howling success, and filled the coffers to the point we could operate in deficit spending, let's do it again!
Now as to the fact that 72% of the citizens in Crestwood will never go along with a tax increase under the current leadership, I have (as usual) a plan!
1. Close the White cliff pool for 2009.
2. Downsize the animal control officer.
3. Close Sappington House and CHARGE RENT to the code officer.
4. Charge ingress and egress fees to the swim club for the lot.
5. Cut employees (by attrition only.)
6. Freeze all hiring.
7. Rescind all salary increases for promotions in 2008.
8. Assign patrol duties to command staff police officers.
9. Stop the "Crestwood Connections publication, and mailing.
10. Ask for citizen volunteers to "fill in if qualified,and needed."
In other words,act like a business for a change, cut where you can (and must,) and make darn sure each department head understands the NEED FOR IT!
Gentlemen, I will tell you now that your going to be very unpopular, you will be dis-invited to the cocktail parties, coffee klotch's, and the swim club, BUT YOU WILL SAVE CRESTWOOD, and after all, that's what's more important, no?
If there be any man on the Board who feels he is more important than the sum of all of us, and cannot perform this fiduciary duties to Crestwood I say, let him resign now, and allow us to fill his seat with someone who can, and will!
On the lighter side, the closing of Macy;'s has certainly taken a load off the back's of the Citizens committee for revenue increase, now they can go straight to TAX INCREASE, and forget the middle man!
Tom Ford
NO. 583
On the surface this is not good at all, now is it, or is it? We now have a NEED for the leadership that has been so lacking at City Hall what with "yes men" on the Dias, and a mayor that said "remember it takes six!"
Can it be that now we shall see someone take the reins up there and DO SOMETHING ABOUT OUR "OPPORTUNITY?" I have an idea "Your Honor," since the retail tax holiday you slammed into place over the BOA's objection was such a howling success, and filled the coffers to the point we could operate in deficit spending, let's do it again!
Now as to the fact that 72% of the citizens in Crestwood will never go along with a tax increase under the current leadership, I have (as usual) a plan!
1. Close the White cliff pool for 2009.
2. Downsize the animal control officer.
3. Close Sappington House and CHARGE RENT to the code officer.
4. Charge ingress and egress fees to the swim club for the lot.
5. Cut employees (by attrition only.)
6. Freeze all hiring.
7. Rescind all salary increases for promotions in 2008.
8. Assign patrol duties to command staff police officers.
9. Stop the "Crestwood Connections publication, and mailing.
10. Ask for citizen volunteers to "fill in if qualified,and needed."
In other words,act like a business for a change, cut where you can (and must,) and make darn sure each department head understands the NEED FOR IT!
Gentlemen, I will tell you now that your going to be very unpopular, you will be dis-invited to the cocktail parties, coffee klotch's, and the swim club, BUT YOU WILL SAVE CRESTWOOD, and after all, that's what's more important, no?
If there be any man on the Board who feels he is more important than the sum of all of us, and cannot perform this fiduciary duties to Crestwood I say, let him resign now, and allow us to fill his seat with someone who can, and will!
On the lighter side, the closing of Macy;'s has certainly taken a load off the back's of the Citizens committee for revenue increase, now they can go straight to TAX INCREASE, and forget the middle man!
Tom Ford
NO. 583
posted by Crestwood Independent at 16:30
86 Comments:
I beleive it may be time to start another committe.
I do to. In fact, it may be time to start another committee so we can start another committee.
Who will chair the committee to look into the formation of a committee?
We must have "strong leadership" on this committee else we falter!
What say you Mr. Bland? This is right up your alley!
Tom Ford
We need a committee to decide how to form the committee. And then another committee on how to give the revenue committee ideas...I joke now, but just you wait and see. Mark my words. In six months, we'll see yet another committee.
Committee - a fancy word for "I don't want to do the work."
Your list to fix the city is off a bit.
1 close a revenue source
2 eliminate animal control
(only one employee)
3 can't close Sappington House
or any other park
4 charge the swim club for using their own parking lot. Let's charge the residents every time they pull into their own driveways
5 by attrition only other than #2 of course
6 it took 6 to finally get one right
7 if this happened I don't think you would have to worry about #5
8 run the city like a company and this is what you come up with
9 that way the residents would just have the call and the independent to go by.
10 if you get as many people to volunteer that voted against the tax increase you won't need employees. but I don't think you will get more than two.
11 why didn't you run against Roy this past election since you obviously have all the answers
I think the Crestwood Swim Club should charge Tom Ford and all of the other crackpots a fee everytime the drive up to city hall with their beloved FOIA forms. It is the swim clubs parking lot. It should be a toll lot and since Tom is all about volunteering he can park his little hiney in the toll booth and be the volunteer toll collector. And if you try and shut Whitecliff for the summer, just wait for the community uproar. You are completely out of touch with reality.
7:48 PM blogger: Well your the first supporter of "doom and gloom" I have flushed out so far!
There will be more, but none so "eloquent" in their support and defense of the defenseless, I am sure!
Me thinks your trying to be too cute by a half! But fear not, you failed as usual!
7:54 PM blogger: I would love to take the toll from the folks (most of which do not live in Crestwood) for this travesty of a mockery of public funds, trust me!
Tom Ford
I kind of like the idea of closing Whitecliff, at least temporarily until the economic storm leaves. I would hope the good neighbors of the Crestwood Swim Club would invite us over and we can be one big happy community.
Say what you will regarding the administration and leadership of Crestwood, but it appears to me they have been holding the city together with a piece of bubble gum, a paper clip, and some foil. While all of us live on a "fixed income", whether it be our salary,retirement,or social security. And have to deal with inflation along with other unexpected costs. The city seems to be operating with a declining income from the mall. Yet you seem to think they are pulling the wool over our eyes and mismanaging our city. Compared to other cities with fire and police, I believe we have the lowest tax rate around. Maybe you should try and pull people together and make things better in Crestwood. Instead of trying to divide and cause animosity throughout the community
Its always important for someone with morals and integrity to stand up for those that can not or won't. I enjoy your comments and opinions however off they may be.
8:33 PM blogger: We thank you for your kind comments!
We shall do exactly that, for to do less would be to give in to injustice, and poor Government!
Tom Ford
"9 that way the residents would just have the call and the independent to go by."
Since when was the city newsletter (paid for by you and me) supposed to be the mayors private editorial page? If that is what he and you want it to be, then I want the right to have my letters published in it at no expense to me, after all, there is the freedom of the press in the USA.
Not at all. I would prefer all publications to provide more accurate information and a more objective look at all issues. Oh, I must have been dreaming. Sorry, back to reality. The Crestwood Connection has more than just the mayors editorial in it. I'm afraid you and I will have to settle with this venue for expressing our thoughts.
7:54 PM January 8
The parking lot belongs to the city, and the swim club members have the right to use it. Rosebrook Realty performed the incredible feat (if you are to believe the affidavits) of selling the same piece of property to two different buyers. Rosebrook apparently sold the parking lot parcel to THF Realty for $850K and then 10 days later sold the same parcel to the city for $1.00 and some considerations.
Tom is correct, the city owns and must maintain the parking lot parcel that the swim club uses, and is contractually obligated to allow the swim club members to park in that parcel. If someone wanted to check the TDD paperwork, they could determine whether there are any stipulations regarding the terms of the parking lot use and if it is possible to charge a fee.
Martha Duchild
Anyone want to bet that the next statement made by City Hall .... I mean the committe... is "If you want to maintain your own Police and Fire Service, we will have to increase taxes."
Maybe the city should start an opt out program. That way the individuals that don't want to pay more taxes won't have to. Then fire and police won't have to respond to their address. Or plow the snow from in front of their driveway.That way its a win win. The residents won't have to support/contribute to the city and the city won't have to offer those people any services.
where do i sign up?
Never used the police or fire in over 30 years. Its like shopping for insurance. What can I get for the best price. My calculations say County and a fire district.
You are a idiot and I hope that your house doesn't catch on fire and you wish you had the fire department minutes from your home, but instead you have to wait for the county to respond and your house burns to the ground. I really feel sorry for all you people and the way you think. Maybe you should stop living in the 20th century and start living in the present. It is a shame that Crestwood has so many old retired residents who think something is owed to them instead of thinking what is best for the city and how to get it thriving again.
It is a really good thing that our public schools in Crestwood are under the Lindbergh School District because if they weren't our children wouldn't have anything and then they would grow up to be like you morons.
Well, your calculations are off,my friend. Sending Police services to County will only save money for the first three years. After which, county will (historically) raise the rent. And we will end up paying alot more for WAY less services.
Here is your thought process broken down.
#1 Contract with county
#2 Sell the guns, cars, equipment.
#3 County low balls us to get the bid.
#4 As a contracted city, the county officers will be obligated to only perform traffic details in the most minimalist in order to maintain the terms of contract. (go to #5)
#5 our courts lose a LOT of $$$ from the lack of citations issued.
#6 After the initial contract expires, county returns to the table and advises they need 40% more to continue services after "a detailed review" of services.
#7 We end up screwed. Paying MORE for LESS services.
Do you think county cops will answer animal calls? Or assist in medical calls? Or deliver aldermanic packets? Or perform vacation checks? Or provide DARE to our children? Or patrol in proper numbers, keeping our streets safe? I think not. In fact, I KNOW.
Wake up, people. And for those who have "never used police or fire in 30 years" There is a reason- these men and women DO THEIR JOB, and keep our streets safe.
Selling off our services because we are too angry at current administration to justify a tax increase is idiotic, fool-hearted and closed-minded. If the city is THAT mad at Roy- GET HIM OUT OF OFFICE. But don't spit on every tax increase that comes down the pike and use your hatred of him as justification to vote "no".
We can no longer pay taxes like it is 1965 around here. Webster doesnt. Sunset Hills doesnt. Kirkwood doesn't. The mall is no longer there. We need to accept that and step into the new millenium....or else.
Another thing. Let's call it a prediction...you folks know the north side of Crestwood? If we don't face the music and step up the tax rate, I guarantee that in less than 5 years time, our north side will be the new Meechum Park, as it continues to fall towards that of rental property.
I also agree with the poster who mentioned the older residents. Not all, but many of the oder crowd care only about their "fixed" income status, and less about what it takes to run the city correctly. Guess what? After you men and women die, we will still have a city that needs proper leadership, and TAX BASE.
The citizens of Crestwood are responsible for the city's success or failure. Right now, they are failing, they elected the incompentent people to represent them. And now they are failing by not stepping up to give the city the MONEY it needs to be successful. I say let the city fail, the citizens of this city can deal with the consquences of their actions.
7:34am
Its real easy to sign up. Just put your name, address, and phone number on your next message. That way they will know who no to help. And the rest of us will know not to vote for you if you ever run for alderman/mayor.
As for you 8:00am
Its not like buy insurance. If you go with a different company(fire district) the one we have doesn't just hang around to see if you want to come back later. Everything gets sold and you are stuck with a fire district. Have you seen what other cities that have fire districts pay? A lot more than 35 cents that you probably voted no on.
Lets do the volunteer thing! I can see it now: an 80 year old volunteer firefighter helping an 80 year old resident on a sick case. The redsident needs CPR, and the volunteer administers the aid, only to fall to the ground needing cpr themselves. But don't worry! The elderly police volunteer is there to pick up both of the injured people and drag them to safety! Oops. Broke a hip. Dangit! Better send out the volunteer ambulance service!
As for Whitecliff pool, lets keep it open, with more city resident volunteers. I can see it now. A child begins to go under, but wait! Here comes an elderly lifeguard to save the day!
This is hilarious, isn't it?
I'm curious as to why posters are making assumptions as to the age and income levels of other posters.
Those who opposed tax increases in the past are not all seniors living on fixed incomes. I opposed them, and I fit neither category. This is not about Roy Robinson or his fitness for office.
The city administration and aldermen knew of the possibility that one, two, or all three of the mall's anchor stores would close. Aldermen Miguel and Bland advised that there should be a "Plan B" budget which took into account the closures of these anchor stores, and upon hearing this recommendation, the board and administration did ... nothing.
People are not inclined to hand over their hard-earned (and much needed) income to an administration and board that has thus far failed to demonstrate and act on a clear understanding of the city's financial condition. How else to explain the recent budget approval which includes generous raises at a time when the city is in no position to grant them and is using a technicality to avoid admitting they are using reserves to balance the budget?
Martha Duchild
11:07 AM, January 09, 2009
Don't you think that the current facility would be used to service the city even if it was the county services versus Crestwood?
I believe the past administration (prior Roy) tried to educate the public for the need for more income to maintain services. Roy did not believe them.
The problem now is, since Roy and his boys have not shown any major cuts or even minor cuts, the public doesn't take the need for more income to run the city seriously. Doesn't mean that the need is unwarranted.
from 8:23 PM, January 08, 2009
"Say what you will regarding the administration and leadership of Crestwood, but it appears to me they have been holding the city together with a piece of bubble gum, a paper clip, and some foil."
Let's see
-10 new police cars
-police promotions and raises
-a 2007 SUV for public works director now c/a
-sales tax holiday last August
-$1000 raises
I think the city is being held together with something substantially more than bubble gum, a paper clip, and foil!
to 11:07 AM, January 09, 2009
I lived in unincorporated St. Louis County for several years. I had to call the police once. They responded within 3 minutes.
"It is a shame that Crestwood has so many old retired residents who think something is owed to them instead of thinking what is best for the city and how to get it thriving again."
How shameful of you! These folks have worked all of their lives and paid taxes, just like you and I. I've talked to plenty of senior citizens and not one has told me that something is owed to them.
from 11:19 AM, January 09, 2009
"Do you think county cops will answer animal calls? Or assist in medical calls? Or deliver aldermanic packets? Or perform vacation checks? Or provide DARE to our children? Or patrol in proper numbers, keeping our streets safe? I think not. In fact, I KNOW."
Well, as far as the animal calls, we pay a person to handle that. Deliver aldermanic packets? Why can't the alderman drive up Friday afternoon or evening and pick their packets up themselves? St. Louis County has a DARE program.
"We can no longer pay taxes like it is 1965 around here. Webster doesnt. Sunset Hills doesnt. Kirkwood doesn't. The mall is no longer there. We need to accept that and step into the new millenium....or else."
WE DON'T. Our property tax rate is low, but as assessments go up, so do our taxes. Our sales tax rate is one of the highest in the county as is our utility tax rate.
12:17 PM, January 09, 2009
Do you have a problem with the elderly?
The county bashers forget the real costs of the police department. Not only salaries but insurance, workers comp. retirement, vacation pay, hoilday pay, maintenance and upkeep for equipment, training, and the list goes on and on. It is almost ALWAYS cheeper to contract services. A cop is a cop. It's not like it is brain surgery.
2:15pm
Hope you don't need one of those "brain surgeons" anytime soon. If county came in they would probably use the building with fewer cars patrolling a larger area. Lost court revenue, reduced response time, and no investment into the community like our officers have now. Sounds like a great idea to me. I'm not in favor of giving money away, but clearly the mall can no longer support the city nor should it. All those that want county police/fire district you are in for a rude awakening. The cost and lack of service would cripple the city. Maybe those of you that want it should just move back to St.Louis county since its so great. Why move to Crestwood at all.
1:29 PM blogger: You are 100% correct my friend! Why would we grant a tax increase to the very group who refuse to halt the spending?
Giving them a dime would be like calling the arsonist who set your house on fire to put it out!!
A tax increase may indeed be needed, and I wouldn't fight it IF it were shown to us WHERE, WHEN, AND HOW it will be used, and we have a new crew to supervise it. The last time we gave them one (prop S) the promised on a stack of Korans that it would sunset as soon as the pay off was complete! Well, guess what they lied!
You want a tax increase? OK by me as soon as I see some resignations from the Mayor, and at least five board members!
3:55 Pm blogger: Very well said, and thank you for saying it!
Tom Ford
I wonder if we can change Crestwood designation from "point of sale" to that of a "pool city". That way we could share in the revenues of other cities.
Perhaps that could get us more monies since we do not have the revenues generated like the past.
Why don't you all just get the straight scoop from Mr. Trueblood. Afterall, he was an alderman when all the pool stuff occurred.
Mrs. Duchild
are you saying that our Board of aldermen is responsible for the failure of the Mall? That they are responsible for our loss of revenue and that our city employees should not receive pay raises? Just where do you think the money to run this city should come from? Trees? Your constant thoughtless comments on this blog are iresponsible. If we don't pay for our services who will now? People who think like you are the reason this city is in the shape it is in.
2:15 PM
So you think that county officers don't get benefits, holiday pay, insurance and all the other things you mentioned? Your village just called.
1:29 PM
" the previous administration tried to tell the citizens there was a need for more income".
Was that before or after they approved building a new police station and city hall, rented space at the mall to house our city employees and gave our city buildings to the bank for a 3.5 Million dollar loan we are paying off with Prop S monies?
5:04 PM, January 09, 2009-
Don't see anywhere where Mrs. Duchild blamed the board or administration for failure of the mall. Only see where she called for a plan B and maybe some further cuts.
I myself don't want to withhold raises from city employees but can our city afford it? Look at the headlines. It's tough out there. Anyone who has a job should be thankful.
Do we continue to spend and spend and spend and spend regardless of city income and the economy?
And then what gets me is that the folks that provide the dough (namely us taxpayers) are given a guilt trip that we don't pay more taxes!
3:55 PM, January 09, 2009
Fenton's got county police. I think Wildwood does too. Are they crippled?
4:10 PM, January 09, 2009-
Excellent question and something that should be looked into.
Hey 5:04pm
And she is planning on running for aldermen this April.
"Just where do you think the money to run this city should come from? Trees?"
Great question. Ask the board that question.
Here is how I see it.
Our current property tax rate for our services is 50 cents on the hundred.
For the sake of making thing simply, lets say that the entire foot print of Crestwood were given over to Mehlville Fire District at 59 cents.
What I am trying to get us to think about is this, if we went into the County and if we had Mehlville, our cost would go up 9 cents over what we are paying now INCLUDING County and any State property taxes. We might have less effective Police Fire and other services but that would be our increase in cost.
The question then becomes, would increasing the Crestwood tax 9 cents enable the City to continue the same service levels we have now? If so, then put a 9 cent increase on the April ballot.
But the problem is, this years budget is spending approx $600,000 of our cash reserves in order to stay in the black. And with Macy closing, and the wage increases and new staff hiring built into the budget now, we will have to use more of the reserves this year than planned unless we reduce our payroll. Which then forces us to look at 1010 and how far the 9 cent increase will go.
If we make more cuts in personal at what point will our service be less than what the County would provide for a 9 cent increase?
What amount of a tax increase do the leaders of our City say would be needed to off set the sales tax decline and stop our spending of our cash reserves? Alderman Bland once said we should plan our budget as if there was no sales tax income.
If our current leadership group at City Hall can not tell us how much an increase with their cuts is needed to off set decline in sales tax income, then I would rather go with County for the 9 cent increase than to go through this again every 12 months. But that's just me.
5:49 - You make some good points! I don't agree with everything you state, but you are correct on many points. And you are right - going through this every 12-18 months is not pleasant.
You don't go with a Fire District, that automatically raises the taxes.
You contract Police Services. That does not raise the tax and is paid out of the straight budget.
As I understand it, the Prop S loan was paid off and instead of retiring it, like agreed to, they are now using that money to run the City.
As stated by someone else, Roy got elected because he said the city did not need a tax increase. Now, he can never stop asking for more money-this was before the economic slide. The city needed it then and needs it now even worse.
St. Louis County was going to give their employees a 5% pay raise till the economy took the big hit. It has since been taken out of their budget.
When any person tells you they have "restructured and saved money". I guarantee you, it's always smoke and mirrors. This just allowed them to advance/promote who they wanted. Just think what all the departments in the city could have saved if the salary was frozen, no promotions or advancements etc.until such time as more monies becomes available.
THEIR actions and failure to do the "unpopular", is the reason so many people voted NO to the increase.
After the initial contract is over with a fire district you are at their mercy. If you are lucky enough to get a three year contract, if they aren't receiving enough money at the end of it you can be sure your tax rate will sky rocket.
I agree they made a poor decision by giving all employees a $1000 raise. However this was before Macy's closed. I don't see how employee raises can be criticized when they are from eliminating positions and adding to work load of other employees.
So how much of a tax increase is needed to off set the decline in sales tax?
If you haven't seen it yet, County is going to try to ram a tax increase down everyone's throat in the April election!
The idea of the 9 cents is somewhat flawed, as that (were it possible) is for the F.D ONLY. Now add the County PD costs, the NEW county tax, and your up to over $1.18 per hundred for less service!
Trust me "the grass is always greener!" The idea of disbanding Crestwood (that's what you get if you farm all services out) is abhorrent to me, and it should be to you as well!
Crestwood can, and will be saved, but first we must have leaders we can trust, I don't see that now with the exception of Miguel, and Nieder!
Let's all work for a new group who understands what the heck is actually happening here, get behind them, and FIX this mess!
Enough of the grandstanding, the posturing, the padding the resume, and get Crestwood some real leadership for a change!
8:00 PM blogger: I would put it at 84 cents per hundred at the very least. That should get it accomplished, however if the boys could see their way clear to make CUT'S, it could be ONLY 72 cents per hundred!
Don't believe me? Call Steve Nieder, or Jerry Miguel, they will fill you in!
Tom Ford
5:04 PM January 9
To respond to your questions:
1. No
2. No
3. All taxes, fees, grants currently being collected by the city.
4. We do pay for our services (see number 3 above).
Why is cutting expenses not an option?
Martha Duchild
Tom, correct me but how would the County increase our police cost if we were no longer a city and a part of the county? What is the tax rate charged by the county? Doesnt our current total tax rate ( excluding Crestwoods) include county?
For example, lets say our total tax rate is $1.00, 50 cents is crestwood the rest is county tax. If we drop Crestwood our rate would be 50 cents and that would provide for us the County police,etc. Then for fire we would have lets say Mehlville at 59 cents, total cost would be in this example now be 1.09 vs current 1.00.
Look, MIguel used to live in the county until his location became a part of Crestwood, when that happened he stil gets District Fire protection but he doesnt pay for it,Crestwood does. If we go back to the county, he would have to again pay for his fire protection.
You all scare me.
10:14 PM blogger: For starters please click on this link to see Crestwood:
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/about/tax.aspx
Now Kirkwood:
http://www.ci.kirkwood.mo.us/Newsletters/E-News/April%2006.pdf
Now Fire districts:
http://www.firedepartments.net/Missouri/StLouis/AfftonFireProtectionDistrict.html
Now County Police:
http://www.stlouisco.com/police/muni/index.html
You see once we contract with county at $X.XX, sell off the cars, equipment, downsize the officers, sell the equipment, radios, and desks, were at their mercy!
County is FAMOUS for bidding low, securing the contract, and then when we have no choice, running up the numbers out of sight!
They will tell us of the helicopters, the canine units, the swat teams, and the accreditation they have (it all sounds wonderful.)
However it's sort of like Las Vegas, all the millions of light bulbs stay on, why? Because you pay for them!
St. Louis County is not set up as a benevolent daddy to save us, quite the opposite, they are a business, pure and simple!
Think of Vladimir Putin cutting off the natural gas supply to Georgia (as he just did,) and ask your self what are you going to do when there is no choice but St. Louis County left because we sold eveything?
Crestwood is Crestwood because of the services provided by our wonderful employees, want to become a number in a pile with no name? Want to be known as "I live in UN-incorporated St. Louis County? I don't!
Tom Ford
5:49 PM
I am not being critical but please review your numbers. Going with another fire district would not raise your taxes by only 9 cents. the 59 cents your stated would be fore fire service only. that would not cover any of your other expenses such as police, parks, streets or administration. Also please look at your county real property tax bill and I think you will see that you are not paying anywhere near 50cents per $100. I believe it is in the area of 37/100 and that pays for everything, fire , police, streets, parks and administration.
Having said that I am impressed with the positive and thoughtful ideas some of us are posting. Remember that a budget is an estimate of what you believe you will take in and what you will have to pay out. It in no way is a clear cut or precise document. to clarify my comment, look at your own personal budgets. You know how much you anticipate earning in a year and you budget your expenses based on your income. But if you lose your job hafeway into the year, your insurance premiums go up or your car unexpectedly has to be replaced, you have to adjust your expenditures and budget accordingly. You create a budget using your best guestimate but it is always subject to change.
As for Prop S, it has not yet been paid off
The answers to Crestwood's problems will now be found on this blog. Too much anger, resentment and unsettled scores with other people. The answers will be found with the thoughtful, polite, and reasonable people with no ax to ground. These people are the silent majority--they have not been to the meetings YET. Brace yourself.
10:06 1-10-09
Not everyone on this blog is negative or has an ax to grind. In fact the more people that have a positive perspective of the city that write in is a plus. That way those with a negative perspective have someone to communicate with. Perhaps their information may be incorrect or maybe our info may be off. Those of us that have the city in a good light can be heard instead of being the silent majority/minority. We are rarely heard since the loudest child usually gets the most attention. Those of you that dislike crestwood, the mayor, the aldermen should read Mr. Fords comments. Although he has been hard on crestwood in general he realizes the city needs to stay. Your feelings and dislike for the mayor or aldermen need to be put aside and move forward. Everyone will have a change in April to vote for new aldermen in every ward. But we as residents will still need to take additional action to keep this city afloat. Those of you that enjoy to bash Roy, everyone in this city elected him. Either by casting a vote for him or by standing on the sideline and doing nothing. Those of you that didn't vote are just as responsible.
10:06 January 10th
These thoughtful, polite, and reasonable people will be a welcome addition to the board meetings. Even if they did not possess the above-mentioned qualities, they'd still be a welcome addition. The more people participating in the democratic process, the better.
Martha Duchild
I agree we need more positives. Having said that it is clear that those who didn't vote for the mayor or aldermen probably still don't like them . I have attended several meetings and read the accounts of meetings in the papers and there certainly have been some contentious times between the mayor and one or 2 aldermen but I fail to see what any of the aldermen have done in a negative way that would justify them not being re-elected. We may not like the way they voted or the decisions they made in every instance but not everone will. It is not a perfect world which is why there are always 2 positions to every situation and we have words in our vocabulary like Right and Wrong, Good and Bad and positive and negative. One thing is for certain, our elected officials stepped forward to do service to our city and it's citizens, and when their terms are up they will either be re-elected because the majority of the citizens think they did a good job or replaced because the majority didn't like their decisions. Either way they will still be our friends, neighbors, church parishoners and foremost citizens of Crestwood. In the end, new challenges will surface for our city and decisions will again have to be made. And again some of us will be OK with the results and some of us won't and the cycle continues.
My point about the 59 cents is this,
if we stop being a city and become unincorporated, our taxes would only increase 9 cents from our current level if we get Mehlville Fire District. That is all I have been trying to get you to think about, and the question that Tom answered about what would our tax rate have to be if we stayed a City and had no income from the mall yet wanted to keep our current level of services, I think he said 89 cents.
So what I am trying to get all of you to think about is what you would be willing to pay in the way of a tax increase, because it is either going to a 9 cents or 49 cents increase with our tax from the mall going away. And the Mall is going to close, Sears is next, dont believe me, just go there this week and look at the floors and you'll see as we did they have piled up what is left in stock on the floor. The place is empty.
How much could we cut to make up total loss of income from the Mall? I dont know, but my fear is that what the cuts will produce is a level of service that we have been told to expect if we close the city, that is why I am asking all of you to think about 9 cents or 49 cents, what is it going to be?
.59 cent blogger. Major flaw in your logic.
The cost for fire only, if we dissolve the city or fire district, could be as high as $1.50 per hundred residential evaluation. The present rate is
.79 cents but could be raised to1.50 at the will of the fire district without a vote from the public.
That is fire only.
Police protectiion, parks, streets etc. would each cost far more money than what you pay right now. Check with friends you have in unincorporated St. Louis Cty.
We have a bargain here.
Remember the bargain because even if you tripled your present rate of taxation, the lost sales tax revenue could not be replaced. Expenditures need to be reduced drastically and have for three years. Remember government is in the business of spending money, your money. Until you put the lock on the vault, the spending increases will continue. ELect aldermen who understand and are willing to make the unpopular decisions required to keep us in business and discontinue spending more than revenue produces such as what was approved for the 2009 budget.
WHAT? When you are a part of the county you pay for your fire protection only. The rest of your services are provided by the county using the tax on your property that we are alresdy paying now even though we are in a City.
You mean to tell me that people in unincorporated county pay for parks and police protection as line items on their tax bill? And that it varys based on what part of the county you live in? I am excluding fire protection becasue I know that the districts cost vary from district to district. But I understand that your county tax bill for police is the same no matter were you live and in fact we are paying county taxes now.
This is something a brave alderman should find out for us because it we find out it is going to cost us less living in the county guess what I think the voters will vote to do with the City of crestwood?
Especialy with our current mayor
A few numbers from St. Louis County
Total tax School Fire/city
Webster
7.4843 4.5669 .55
Rockwood
7.2167 3.9987 1.0783
Affton
6.9884 4.223 .559
Kirkwood
6.9259 3.9895 .6510
Bayless
6.5384 3.140 .9910
Mehlville
6.3388 3.1414 .9910
Crestwood
5.7704 3.13 .43
And just for fun
Wellston
10.2858 5.63 2.435
All on St. Louis County for everyone to see. We have got it really good for vary little. As for 7:52pm the board isn't spending money like its going out of style. There are certain cost to run a city. They go up every year and if revenues decrease yearly eventually you will have an unbalanced budget. It's not mismanagement just simple math. They cut many positions about three years ago and they seem to still be eliminating positions where they can without cutting our services.
8:03pm
Not only are you asking to eliminate our police and fire, but your also asking the aldermen to eliminate them selves. This can't be your request? Not only would you give up the men and women who have giving years and years of service to us. But also give up what voice we have with our community and leave everything to chance with county.
Newsflash. The old Crestwood Plaza moved. It's now called Gravois Bluffs. We know no one shops there because that area is in County Police jurisdiction. :)
If we can't accept change in our City we are going to continue to stagnate and die. The best course of action is to get people to wake up and get involved.
I'm sure many can make the argument that city government has not been working for the citzens for many years.
10:33 You have a point
I don't belive anyone is asking the city of crestwood to 'dis-incorporate', but simply contract services.
When you CONTRACT services, you negotiate what level of services you want and can afford (not including police/fire). It is not an all or nothing proposition.
Mr. Ford's continued accusation that the county ALWAYS screw you when the first term of agreements expire, but that is simply not true if you examine the budgets posted by contract city's.
There is also no truth to the statement that residents will receive less or inadequate servies with contracted police or fire district services. Using response time as the measure is flawed in and of itself. Nobody can state what the response time for a county officer verses a crestwood officer would be given the same circumstances. That is simply a scare tactic by Mr. Ford.
And as stated many times on this blog, we are not limited to the county police. Kirkwood or Webster are also fine candidates, hell, there are numerous past crestwood officers working for those departments.
Nothing should be excluded from consideration by the board. The only issue is how deep to cut.
First of all Crestwood is it's own fire district. Secondly, yes ,you could contract with St. Louis County Police for services but as Mr. ford has said, County Police is not going to do it for free just because you currently pay taxes to County. Look at Fenton, they have County Police and their rates include salary, benefits, fuel, vehicle wear and tear, equptment and all the other costs of Police Work. It has been looked at before and the answer was unless you are sincere about using County Police, they would not provide a cost to the city. And if your thinking about Webster or Kirkwood, why not just merge with them under one government. Or why not just adjust our department to a level that we can afford and if that means only one officer on the street at a time well so be it. But I personally think that is a mistake and we may be overreacting by doing so just now. If the information provided by the papers is correct, we still have a surplus and if we can just get by a couple more years by being more frugal and saving where we can we will get through this. The whole country is in economic turmoil as well as our city. It is no different in your personal lives. How many of you have sold your houses or cars and are now renting or taking a cab because your financial portfolio is down? Probably none, but you are watching your discretionary spending I am sure. And that is what the city needs to do. Don't buy anything we don't have to and don't spend money on repairs that can be put off another year or 2. Operate on the bare essentials until things turn around. In other words why abandon a perfectly good ship just because your in the middle of a storm. Ride it out.
The biggest benefit of contracting services is paying directly to an organization where Roy doesn't get to throw away the money. We (the taxpayers) already pay a big chunk to a fire protection district for that area we annexed, and some of you are residents of that area. Is your service worse than Crestwood?
As far as County police, give them city hall to use as a base station. I see a lot of bored officers out there just running radar, giving out tickets to residents. Do we really need to generate revenue from writing tickets to pay these people to write us those tickets? A few less, more-focused police officers would probably be enough.
And somebody brought up an interesting point earlier. If Crestwood no longer had a mall, wouldn't we change from a point of sale city to a pool city? Some little arts and crafts/dinner destination isn't worth holding onto that title and giving the rest of St. Louis County our sales tax revenue.
10:50 AM blogger: Scare tactic? Why would I ever need to do that?
I have seen the County's act many times, and it just isn't good!
I know you will never believe me, or for that matter a Crestwood officer, or fireman, but go to another muni, ask their officers about County!
Now as for me and my family,we have been trained to protect ourselves, so were not worried, but what about you? Do you really want to take the chance that the much vaunted County officer's will be "in place" when you really need them?
Or what about the fire and paramedic's? Do you think you have enough time to continue your heart attack, or to watch the house burn while you wait for?
Scare tactics? no my friend, REALITY, check it out for yourself!
Tom Ford
All departments could probably share 1 administrative assistant. Corporations do without them these days. That's what email, voicemail and online calendars are for.
Shrewsbury seems to be pleased with contracting their dispatching. Heck, we've got laptops and GPS these days.
Eliminate the $1000 across the board raises.
Eliminate the 20% increases for promotions for parks and public works.
In this economy employers have the upper hand. There are plenty of people out there that would be happy to have these jobs.
Tom--I thought policemen supported each other. You are very disrespectful to the county policemen.
"Do you really want to take the chance that the much vaunted County officer's will be "in place" when you really need them?"
What a naive and irresponsible statement Mr. Ford. What are the chances that if you call Crestwood police that you won’t get a run-down cigar smoking burnt out old cop who has been sitting at the station for 2 hours; or sitting at Malone’s for the same amount of time. Will they arrive at my house any quicker than a county officer?
How will Crestwood save me from the kid who stolen the change from my unlocked car overnight better than a county officer? Remember, when the stuff hits the fan, Crestwood calls the county police for help!
As far as my house burning down; please let it burn to the ground. That’s why I have insurance to build a brand new one. My wife wants a new kitchen anyway.
8:58 PM blogger: Your right to think that way as most do, County Police are the exception!
They believe their own bravo sierra, and have a major tendency to look down on muni officers (ask any muni officer,) thus the dislike!
12:07 PM blogger: I have always tried to make it my policy never to argue with a fool, and in your case I will adhere to it!
You should be greatly ashamed on the way you spoke about the people who would lay down their life for you, but then again your too special, aren't you!
And, if (God forbid) your home should burn down, please take you insurance, your wife, and your new kitchen out to Fenton to rebuild, I believe you will be much happier!
Tom Ford
How many county policeo fficers are there? Are all of them bad. You sure use an awfully broad brush to condemn an entire group of law enforcement professionals.
It just so happens that in these times, most officers working in St. Louis County, are former municipal police officers.
They have been hiring more of them for the last ten years. You will probably find a former Crestwood officer or 2 among them. In fact, I would guess that nowadays, former muni officers make up at least 35% of the force.
That stigma that you alluded to, County Officers looking down on muni officers, has been gone for many years.
I think if you really want to be honest about it, there is more of a stigma attached to north county munis,and smaller cities, that are looked down upon by west, central, and south central cities.
Do I want to see County police patrolling Crestwood? No! But I also won't vote for a tax increase unless...
1- I see some real, conscious cost cutting effort - which the city has failed to do over the last several years. Trim staff in all departments, eliminate positions, share secretarys, etc.
2- The City gets "real" bids for contracting sevices, and make these cost available to the public. At least we will know that they have researched the costs.
3-The City is above board concerning sunshine laws and public information.
These things must happen first, in order for me to vote yes for a tax increase.
I am sure everyone has different opinions, and I respect them.
To the blogger who wants his house to burn down, you have got to be one sick individual to want that to happen to you. You also are a fool for leaving your car unlocked. You were asking for trouble and you got it! Tom, I agree with you. This individual needs to move to another city since he hates it so bad here in Crestwood! Adios!!
"Do I want to see County police patrolling Crestwood? No! But I also won't vote for a tax increase unless...
1- I see some real, conscious cost cutting effort - which the city has failed to do over the last several years. Trim staff in all departments, eliminate positions, share secretarys, etc.
2- The City gets "real" bids for contracting sevices, and make these cost available to the public. At least we will know that they have researched the costs.
3-The City is above board concerning sunshine laws and public information.
These things must happen first, in order for me to vote yes for a tax increase."
I AGREE!
9:14 & 10:37
When you make statements like you have you are showing everyone that ylou don't know what you are talking about but rather just repeating things you have read on this blog. I challenge you to call city hall and ask each department head what their reduction has been in personel aover the last 3-4 years. Having done so, I don't think you would have made that comment. Also, you would get more information if you would just attend board and committee meetings. It is all there for you to see and hear. In fact , those who do attend probably feel there is too much information provided as our Mayor is not been known for keeping secrets.
9:03
10:37 here-
While I'll admit there has been some staff reduction, has it been enough? Can more be reduced? What is the most effective way to use existing staff?
I've attended many a board meeting, so your assumption is wrong.
Remember what the say about arguing on the internet! Most of you are simply being played for someones enjoyment.
If you look at the positions within the various departments, you will see that personnel can be reduced substantially.Yes,cuts have been made but not as much as could be.
I assume that the city knows this and as a last measure, will eventually eliminate these positions, which will show the public that they are finally serious.
Yes we ALL know that the Mayor does not like to keep secrets, nor does he go in closed session to approve pay raises, nor does he legitimize or condone the use of city time, personnel, monies or publications to politically promote prop issues.
I guess I would know this by attending more board and committe meetings.
Everyone that is saying the city must cut staff the city must cut staff. Where from? Everyone is so certain the city is over staffed but it is easy to say cut, but where from? Do you really think with everything going on they have people sitting around twirling their thumbs? They have made major cuts around three years ago and continue to trim where they can. So, cut where, what, who?
How about this, an across the board pay cut for everyone who works for the City? No service lost, no jobs lost benefits remain in place, no re training of new people when rehiring starts.
So, we want to keep everything we have we just don't want to pay for it. I'm shocked at the number of people who believe we should cut everyone's salary. Personally, I have never worked for any company that cut salaries. Even after 9-11, maybe a pay freeze but never a cut. You can't cut positions and have employees do multiple duties and then cut pay. Even if you don't cut anymore positions many have already been cut. That sounds almost like a slap in the face to me. I understand times are tough everywhere, but to ask a few(100 employees) to pay for our services(X thousand residents) sounds insane to me. The pennies out of our pockets or the dollars out of theirs?
A few hundred employees are the now the tail that wags the dog? If times are tough, having a job is better than not having one or one to go to.
The only solution is seems is the owners of this city must pay more, nothing else will do, nothing else will be consider as legit. Wake up, the owners of this city don't have the money to pay the workers more. The elected leaders of our city are no longer trusted. There is serious talk about disbanding Crestwood and becoming apart of the County,then what will those workers do for a living?
9:35
Better yet, what will you do when you are paying 2-2.5 times the taxes you are paying now? I know you just don't get it but you will when your comment comes true and you get a tax bill from the county.
If the county tax rate is so high and the tax rates charged by the Cities in the county are so low, how come every body isnt moving into the cities?
Again, every county non city resident pays the same rate of property tax to the county regardless of their zip code. The only differance is the cost of their fire protection service. That varies by district.
If you ask those who live in what is called the annxied area of Crestwood, they will tell you their property rates went UP when they became a part of Crestwood, but since the City now paid their Fire district charges the over all impact for them was a reduction in their total property tax rate.
So, if Crestwood closed their doors our property tax rate would not increase, however we would now pay for our homes fire protection to a fire district, the net effect could mean an increase as low as 9 cents if Mehlville is the district picked.
I would hope if the Mayor and Board see the only thing to do is to close down the City that before doing so they would contract with Mehlville because of their lower rate.
9:22 AM Jan. 15
Please keep in mind that the Mehlville Fire Protection District is not charging the rate set as the ceiling, but they could increase the current rate to this ceiling without a vote of the public. I just wanted to make this clarification.
Martha Duchild
Hey, we could do like the City of St. George and go with St. Louis County Police. It is only going to cost them $320,000 a year for 5 officers. That's only $64,000 per officer and that includes a car. And there will be 1 officer patroling for 1300 residents at all times. So let's see, If we haave 10 times the citizens that means we would need 10 times the officers or 50 officers times $64,000 is a grand total of...... drum roll please...$3,200,000. And that ladies and gentlemen means we would only be spending $$347,000 more for The County Police. Wait, I forgot the police cars we buy at $129,000 annually. Ok, so we would only be spending $218,000 more a year for County. What's $218,000 among friends. Let's look at it another way. St. George has less than 1 Square Mile of City. we have a little over 3 Square miles or three times the area. So lets take 3 times the 5 officers St. George will get or 15 officers and we will be getting 3 officers on the streets at any time which means we will have 1 officer for every 3900+ citizens. Or we could say because they will have 1 officer for every 1000 citizens and we have almost 12000 citizens we would have almost 10 officers on the street at one time. Geez this is too confusing, I'm gonna have to think about this some more over a glass of fine wine and get back to ya'll.
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