Alderman Miguel starts it, and local resident ends it with the City Attorney (audio up now,!.)
In a stunning display of "We the People" Martha Duchild tore into our beloved (?) City attorney, Rob Golterman (Of Lewis, Rice and Fingerish,) and had him squirming in his chair ! Not only was he squirming he had to admit that when it came to the FIRST AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION he was still learning ! What ? Were paying you $224.00 an hour and your still learning ? Rob, learn on Wildwood's time, not ours, and while your at it quit playing with your "I phone," and have your boss send out a first year law student to explain it to you.
Were that not enough he went on to say that (even though it was proven to him that he had two different opinions on the SAME part of the Civil Service rule in two years,) "I don't remember." (Reminds me of Hillary Clinton at the Grand Jury.)
Now that wasn't all either it also seems that the second paragraph of the rule was " a sin of omission," in that it wasn't in there when it was placed into the memorandum of understanding with the Fire Fighters Union, (according to another City official.) When asked about what the Fire Fighters interpreted it to mean, he finally said "I don't care !" Again Rob, what the heck does that mean, you don't care, and how dare you say that to a Citizen you work for ?
"His Honor" was of course worried about some 'conspiracy theory" getting around about him and the Fire Fighters and tried to preempt that by saying there wasn't one, (Really, Really ? What was it "Your Honor if not willful, and why ?)
All in all, I think we have a City Attorney who either needs some time at the "Shady Acres " rest home due to PTSD, or we are stuck with a guy who is trying out for the ninth district court of appeals (they have no idea what time it is either.)
Alderman Miguel's remarks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fOo_yT67No
In any event, Kudos to Alderman Jerry Miguel for getting the ball rolling, and special thanks to Martha Duchild for driving the points home !
Tom Ford
NO. 784
posted by Crestwood Independent at 16:35
50 Comments:
Tom, It seems like Firefighters in the St Louis area are under attack. Im wondering if the Mayor and the City Attorney have been reading "HOW TO DESTROY A FIRE DISTRICT" By Aaron im only saving the taxpayers 3.1 cents and James Ive had my record expunged so im a goodboy now Stonebraker. Look whats Happening in Mehlville a TAX DECREASE TO NOWHERE. Personal Information released. Questionab le Land deals. And A host of other outrages statements. Look if the City Attorney And Mayor Robinson are trying to sand bag the Public Servents into not being able to support a candidate of their choice because it may perswade a vote not in his favor that is wrong. In the Military we follow the Commander And Cheif. With the understanding that no matter what Party is Incharge. I served under 4 Presidents and was never told that I couldnt support anyone of them Takin away this right to back a certain candidate is wrong.
Well, you certainly have a right to your opinion. But I will need a response as to how does it benefits anyone to have firefighters or any city employee active in city politics i.e. backing certain candidates? This is becomming prevelant and I don't see any benefits to the people paying the taxes or the city itself. Firefighters are employees, correct, and not lawmakers? Nowdays they seem beholden to a union. They don't win points when they malign their employer, the public and the officials. They know when they choose this profession it is a public occupation dependent on certain factors and restraints. We prefer to look upon firefighters as an essential service we appreciate and need. We do not appreciate any attempts to strong arm literally or figuretively. This breaks a bond and presents a distorted picture of service, heroism and duty and dedication. Traits I assume are part of the reason firefighters and paramedics choose this as a career. If other of our city employees were to foster tactics employeed by some districts, it would be considered insubordination and grounds for dismissal. Job security is diminished when city employees clone themselves to a particular faction politically and it changes. Politics is not like the ice cream truck. It is alive and well when it comes to contributions and support here. I worked at the polls with firefighters from other cities and have yet to figure out why their dog is in this fight. Hmmm. So,please help me out here.
10:41 Blogger: I agree there has been a lot on Firefighters of all stripe lately, but I doubt anyone in Crestwood has an malice toward them.
Mehlville has provided the Call with enough ink to fill a train car, why ? Well I guess their at loggerheads with each other at the district.
That said our illustrious City Attorney (and by association Crestwood) will be a full Newspaper target in the weeks to come unless he resigns or apologizes to the entire City for his remarks to the wife of a sitting Alderman !
I have had several residents opine that it was a stupid remark. I disagree, Mr. Golterman is a lawyer, he knew (or should have known) exactly what he was saying, and if he didn't we need a new Lawyer ! Ergo it was an arrogant remark.
Mr. Golterman, please, were all stocked up here with arrogance from "His Honor," give it a rest, answer the questions your asked, period.
Tom Ford
"I worked the polls with firefighters from other cities". As it stands now, when it's election time, Crestwood firefighters are allowed to work the polls on there own time, off duty, out of uniform,and not representing the city. That's what they did when they supported Tom and Darryl Wallach as well as any other ballot initiative (prop s, prop 1, fire sales tax, etc) that they were asked to support and campaign for by past city officials. If the city wont let them use their first amendment rights any longer than you might as well get used to firefighters from other cities working the polls again just like they did for back when Roy was elected to office. Take your pick.
Firefighters in politics sounds lobbyist related. Support those who will give you raises, promotions and anything you want. Make them in debt to you, etc. Perhaps you don't remember the Grier Regime. The upper hand does not belong in the hands of those on the payroll. But I still await the response as to how it benefits anyone for city employees to become involved in city politics. This snake has a powerful venom.
There are several city employees that also live in Crestwood. I feel they along with any other employee has the right to campaign for what ever they like while they are on their own time. It sounds to me that some individuals are trying to "protect" the employees so they don't get caught in a political hoopla. However, they don't need protection. If they choose to openly support a candidate there will be no benefit or retribution. Another words, if the people that are in the trenches providing for us want to support an issue or candidate I say why not. These people are up to their arm pits in this city and probably know more about what is going on and what is needed in our city than a large portion of residents. I'm also sure that they would like to see what is best for the city and not just line their pockets.
Time to find a different City Attorney. At least one that can handle being under scrutny from the community. Good Luck Crestwood you are a fine city and I still enjoy your hospitality. To you Tom I belive we need to go fishing.
9:31 PM July 29th
Employees who live in the city can support a candidate or cause with their vote.
If Crestwood employees are allowed to campaign in Crestwood elections, the door would be opened for elected officials to ask all civil service employees (not just those living in the city) to help campaign for any candidate or cause in Crestwood. Thus, employees would be put in the awkward position of wondering whether their response to an elected official's request to help in a campaign (regardless of whether that employee personally supported the candidate/cause) would have professional ramifications.
This scenario has been played out in Florissant - their department heads ASKED to be prohibited from campaigning in local elections (just as the civil service employees had been, on and off the clock, for years) because of the political pressure to which they had been subjected by the mayor. Ironically, the city attorney drawing up and defending that legislation works for Lewis Rice Fingersh, Mr. Golterman's firm.
Prohibitions against employee participation in local campaigns have been upheld all the way to the Supreme Court. If a legitimate government interest is at stake, such as preventing employees from being subjected to political pressure and/or prohibiting the creation of political machines, the courts will uphold limitations placed on government employees where First Amendment rights are concerned.
Martha Duchild
Mrs Duchild I agree with you completely. As in all elections we voters are told vote for me and Ill do this. so we vote for the person or group which markets themselves the best. And then hope this person is able to carry out their plans. Right now that the wieght is swinging toward the right. being a republican Im really not sure that the conservitive union hating misaligned republican party is really what we need Im hoping for a more commonsense approch from our government. It seems both parties have failed us badly. When I vote I try to vote for whats best for all. Not just me as an individual. voting is one of the most important responsabilities you have dont take a shallow approch to it. lets take our government back with educated voters. and not a group of followers that except the word of politicians as the truth.
What is the history connected to the need for a Firefighters Union? This kind of employment is not for a corporation or builder, etc. It is a service job for the constituancy. It is a valuable service and residents absolutely appreciate it. Firemen are aware of the job requirements, as are paramedics and for that matter, policemen. Union employees for a municipal or any entity does indeed eventually lead to power struggles and political spoils. A city cannot grown when it is at odds with itself. It is always hard to embrace the tactics used when power politics take over. It destablizes, looking over your shoulder becomes habit and bribery, threats and secrecy move in and you tell me who wins? But it's not the city.
The city employees are here to serve the citizens.
There is something wrong when the city employees receive higher compensation than the average citizen in Crestwood.
8:55 Maybe you should become a city employee. I live on a fixed income and I know you make more then me. Is that wrong, your logic stinks. But hey im just one person.
In passing please allow me to say that I am all for everyone making as much money as they can, the opposite is communism, and as you know I am against that.
Now as for collective bargaining, well that's part of the process. I do draw the line when it comes to any entity becoming to powerful in any setting however.
A union in municipal settings does some good for it's membership as it forces the municipality (us) to take care of it's people. However gaining more power than the elected officials is a no, no.
In politics the "Quid Pro Quo" is a time honored thing, is it right? Who knows, but there it is.
Our job as taxpayers is to insure that if an entity is allowed to work for a candidate, said candidate NEVER succumbs to the whim or rule of the entity that pushed them into power.
On a National level we can see Charlie Rangle, (and soon to be Maxine Waters) being censured by the House or Representatives, and I believe the same thing should happen here if one of our leaders crosses the line.
Rest assured that if they do, I will be all over it, and so should you. Just ask yourself how you are going to look your children and grand children in the eye if you don't !
Tom Ford
Tom again you cant argue with commonsense. Thank you.
retnav2001-
I'd love to become a city employee. If I was a firefighter, I would have a union representing me. If I was a police officer, I'd have community backing and plenty of police cruisers to choose from. I'd also have cola raises. My benefits package (insurance) might be more costly each year, but at least I would have benefits.
What cola raises?
cost of living adjustments
I know what they are, but when is the last time anybody got one?
The last raise occurred in 2009 or did you forget?
a cola followed by a hike in insurance premiums that absorbs the cola does not count.
Please explain how it is that firemen have a union? How long has this been the case and why. this is not meant to be a negative question, simply a question for clarification.
A raise is a raise dear contributor. The cost of payroll is still increased and has to payed for with taxes.
Wake up and smell the coffee. There are no entitlements except life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in this country.
If you are dissatisfied with the possibilities where you work, then you are FREE/ENTITLED, at LIBERTY, to PURSUE your HAPPINESS at different place.
Happy pursuing.
If I may. When each employee is giving a cola that doesn't cover cola it isn't a raise. Yes employees where giving an adjustment 20 months ago, but would be difficult to call it a raise. When did we become a society where the norm is to tell people they should be happy they have a job instead of entities great full they have good employees?
Again, in this country the good old USA, you have the liberty to pursue happiness in this country. If you do not like where you are, who you are, what you are, change it. No one owes you a life according to your expectations. I do not know where the expectations you refer to exist or ever existed.
Quit whining and pursue your dream.
American businesses haven't cared about employees for many years. Greed and corruption have ruined the old work ethic, and "working your way up" is an old fashioned, antique notion now. When corporate CEO's or administrators (or whoever) HAVE to earn upper 6 figures or even 7, and that's the only requirement of the company, that it provide its bosses with lavish lifestyles at any cost, the ones who get trampled are the employees. Pursuing dreams is fine and good and all that, but it's the same everywhere. Corporate greed has seriously altered how business is done in this country.
When was the last cola raise and how much was it???
7:36a.m.
I agree with you.
Your failures in life is someone else fault, not your own.
who said anything about my failures? I was just making an observation. I'm not even in the corporate world! What is your issue? Bitter, are we?
9:26 PM Blogger: " When did we become a society where the norm is to tell people they should be happy they have a job."
When Barack Obama became president my friend, that's when.
Tom Ford
Good Lord, here we go again with Obama. Obama, animal control. Obama, animal control. Sprinkle in some I hate Roy. Get some new material.
6:10 PM Blogger: SAVE YOUR B/P READING AND DON'T READ IT !
Indeed I do not like "the animal adoption club" wasting my tax payer money, I do not like Barack Husein Obama trying to take us Communist, but I do take exception to "Hating the Mayor !
I have no hatred for the mayor, I just find it hard to accept his arrogant posture in a one horse town !
Now if that bothers you, well you have a choice, do what's best for your fragile composure and watch Oprah, or the desperate housewives instead of coming here !
Tom Ford
6:10 PM Blogger: Now that I reflect on it you may be right. What say we do some good old investigative reporting here and run an expose on the "Women of animal control ?"
Or how about "Who else is the City Attorney working for on the Dias ?"
Tom Ford
If one would review the labor market history they would realize the utopia of the caring big business never existed. PROFITS!!! PROFITS !!PROFITS!!!
Few companies accept the emotional quotient of compensation.
Labor is a necessary cost that is always viewed as a primary cost reduction target. Why do think machinery and automation exists today?
If you find the utopia you seek please tell the rest of the world.
I think what that poster was referring to was the fact that there used to be loyalty in business. You could work 30 years for the same company and your dedication was rewarded with promotions and decent retirement. Not so much anymore.
10:32 PM Blogger: Your right, I see that in June the revised job numbers are now -97,000 jobs and in July it's -131,000 jobs.
While this is no doubt the result of the temp. census worker finishing their gig it still belies the administration's claim of a "recovery."
Neither side of the management, labor force can afford to make a mistake in these volatile times.
The most expensive thing in a company / City / State / Federal program is labor and lost time, so it is the first thing to be cut.
It behooves each of us to insure that we are more valuable to each other in a downturn like this else we become superfluous to the company we work for.
Crestwood is but a microcosm of the current rescission thy only difference is that Crestwood has yet to understand the need for deep cuts to survive the coming second wave of recession / depression. We can only hope they will get the word sooner rather than later and eliminate "feel good" and duplicate positions.
Tom Ford
But I think that's just it, right there. You just said it, Tom. To be more valuable. But that was the point. People aren't valuable in business anymore. They are drones from the workforce to make the CEO's rich. The wild excesses on Wallstreet and in the banking industry are just the tip of the iceberg. You and I work our 40-50 hour weeks, making barely enough to live on, while they take millions and millions for their mansions and 14k toilet seats. There is no loyalty or feeling of thanks for the empire built on the backs of the workers. It's more like"quit? Fine. There are plenty of others to take your place". It just has progressed now to the point where there is no sense of duty or responsibility to the worker force, and that bothers me.
8:53 AM Blogger: Yes it has become that way in many areas. The work force (spurred on by unions) distrust the management crew while management is positive they are being used and abused.
In my humble case I am all of the above. I have to manage the profit's, do the selling, delivery, and service ( I am getting to old to install anymore.)
So I have what is a unique perspective on both sides of the question.
Since all those hat's are flying around every day we have no choice but to work together for the common good. And there in lies the possible answer to the dilemma we all face.
Whit's wrong with management / labor, and the support troops doing what they signed on to do ? I believe in times like these a CEO is less important than the work force to the company. Let's face it a good CEO is nothing more than a good delegator. Surround yourself with good people you can trust, and get out of their way and let them get the job done.
There was a time when I could (and did) do it all, not anymore (advanced age you know,) but I still can visit the job sites for moral support, and advice, and I do every day.
Since this economic mess started we have only lost one person (the secretary) due to "needed cut's." I hate to tell you what we look like in a dress, but were all pitching in to do her job.
At this time we have five employees total doing all sorts of things to make it work, and we are. Our newest employee has over 4 years, and our oldest has over 30, so "change" is not in our lexicon.
Why bore you with this? Well because the fact is I haven't had a raise in 11 years, but by the grace of God we have kept together, and we will stay together as we ALL believe we have each others backs.
Show me a company that values everyone the same, and I will show you a company that can and will weather the tough times.
Tom Ford
No one seems inspired to educate me as to how, when and why a firemans union was born. Why is this a job that needs a union and other municipal, state, etc. jobs do not. Upon reading this blog and newspapers, it is fairly obvious that this kind of union for public workers wants to be inclusive in the political process of its "boss" the city. Municipal employees in a union seem to have an edge on other employees. There is no profit and loss engaged in working for a city. All employees are of equal value. Municipal occupations are not comparable to corporate ones. Taxpayers who pay the salaries and benefits, many of which are lower than firemen salaries, may just find this a contentious subject.
While you find yourselves so angry about the animal control subject why aren't you pressing this hard on the questionable city attorney?
Being a consistent conservative to me does not include calling our president a communist or using playground language. However, if there are jobs out there to be had and ways to enrich our nation, and a way to contribute to the process then a unity in understanding the problems and a joint effort is a lot more mature. A blog is a great starting place. But only if it is inviting. Sure, this is only one opinion. But of the opinion that eating away at our America every time we disagree, tends to weaken the threads we have left. This verbal civil war and the venom spewed shows no merit in nation building. We have a cratered value system going on and some of it goes way beyond necessary or realistic.
So, I'll try again, why do municipal employees need a union? And why do charters and civil service and on and on and on have to accomodate a single unit of our city?
the only people upset about animal control are about 10-15 people on this blog. The ones that call the president a communist, and find trouble where there isn't any. If you haven't learned that by now after reading this, you aren't looking very hard.
to the 2:03 post, I want to agree. I wouldn't have my dog if it weren't for animal control here in Crestwood. Doesn't matter to anyone on here, but that dog matters to me.
12:20 PM Blogger: First of all I believe the union was formed about the time that the Sate of Missouri declared "Fire Districts."
Why, I do not know. perhaps it was to guarantee the sanctity of each district, or perhaps because the legislature was mostly Democrat at that time and was repaying a campaign vote debt. You may want to ask Jim Murphy senior as I believe he was part of the State Senate at that time.
"While you find yourselves so angry about the animal control subject why aren't you pressing this hard on the questionable city attorney?" Again perhaps you have missed the threads I have posted (not many respond) reference the City Attorney. In my mind (and several others) he needs to go, but convincing "His Honor of that fact is next to impossible because ?
Animal control HAS NEVER been the issue here my friend, the fact that tax money pays for it while other items go poor IS THE ISSUE!
The so called "friends of animal control" would like to obfuscate the issue and make you think that I hate it, Susie, and all that goes with it. Not true, and they know it !
Animal control is the bench mark for wasteful spending in Crestwood and that is why it get's all the attention, period ! You see Susie is only on for 40 hours per week, the other 168 hours are the job of St. Louis County Animal control (which we pay for with our taxes.)So you see when they tell us that "we have cut to the bone" it's a stone lie, the Mayor wants the votes, so he keeps a duplicate service and the budget be damned !
Now as to the comments on BHO, well the Communist manifesto sates very clearly "To each according to his needs, from each according to his means !" (Karl Marx.)
Mr, Obama has said it clearly several times that he wants to re-distribute the wealth, he has enacted socialized medicine, he wants to enact "cap and trade," and he has worked at capping salaries, and taken over private companies. He has done more to cause "class envy" than any one person has in the 69 years I have been on this planet (other than Karl Marx, and Adolph Hitler.)
As we all know a socialist is a communist in a hurry, so since he has managed to do ALL of this in less than two years, what else can you call him but a Communist !
Tom Ford
The Firefighters supported the candidacy of Roy Robinson and Thomas Ford. Neither are Democrats.
So, I still question the need for unionized municipal employees and if it was a long ago political shenanigin, then lets add that to our list of complaints: (inept and rude city attorney, overpaid administrators, finding middle ground with animal control, discontinuing unionized city employees).
Since this is your blog and thus your priviledge, and you are known to pitch stones at President Barack Obama, I certainly cede this to you,but frankly I will play the "I don't care" card here. Seems this has become commonplace. Besides that, I would not even consider wasting space with my opinion of "W" and his merry band. I'll leave that to liberals and a great many conservatives.
The Crestwood city Attorney also stated "I don't care".
I would be interested in learning about what you do care about.
Please share with us as it would be great to hear some concerns that are different and new.
9:05 PM Blogger: I believe you have added the union issue to "the list of complaints" all by yourself. I can live with that but I fear it's "tilting at windmills."
The Firefighters have been union for as long as I can remember, and I just don't see it changing now.
I am struck by one thing however, and that is why you never have specifically refuted with facts one thing I have said about Obama.
Is it possible that I am spot on reference his beliefs, his socialism, his leading this nation to ruin ?
I am not , nor have I ever been a total Fan of "W" or for that matter anyone since Ronald Wilson Reagan, so were there mistakes made by ALL our presidents, sure their were. However none of them up until now have worked so diligently to turn America from Capitalism to socialism / Communism.
There is a point (were there by the way) when every president must take responsibility for the job and not blame the last one for all the ills, and Mr. Obama can't or will not see that fact, so it goes on.
I believe if you were to go to City hall the Mayor would be glad to meet with you and go over the Firefighters union deal with you. I should clear up a lot of questions we all have if you did and reported it here.
In closing, I have a bit of levity that was sent to me today by a friend that sort of gives a tongue in cheek reason why an entity (California) is broke and another (Arizona) is not. Take it for the wit and humor that it provides,and not an answer to any of the local :animal control" issues.
CALIFORNIA: The Governor of California is jogging with his dog along a nature trail. A coyote jumps out, bites the Governor and attacks his dog.
1. The Governor starts to intervene, but reflects upon the movie "Bambi" and then realizes he should stop; the coyote is only doing what is natural.
2. He calls Animal Control. Animal Control captures coyote and bills the State $200 testing it for diseases and $500 for relocating it to Arizona.
3. He calls a veterinarian The vet collects the dead dog and bills the State $200 testing it for diseases.
4. The Governor goes to hospital and spends $3,500 getting checked for diseases from the coyote and on getting his bite wound bandaged.
5. The running trail gets shut down for 6 months while Fish & Game conducts a $100,000 survey to make sure the area is free of dangerous animals.
6. The Governor spends $50,000 in state funds implementing a "coyote awareness" program for residents of the area.
7. The State Legislature spends $2 million to study how to better treat rabies and how to permanently eradicate the disease throughout the world.
8. The Governor's security agent is fired for not stopping the attack somehow and for letting the Governor attempt to intervene.
9. Additional cost to State of California: $75,000 to hire and train a new security agent with additional special training re: the nature of coyotes.
10. PETA protests the coyote's relocation and files suit against the State of Arizona.
ARIZONA: The Governor of Arizona is jogging with her dog along a nature trail. A coyote jumps out and attacks her dog.
1. The Governor shoots the coyote with her state-issued pistol and keeps jogging. The Governor has spent $0.50 on a .45 ACP hollow point cartridge.
2. The buzzards eat the dead coyote.
And that, my friends, is why California is broke.
Tom Ford
HA Love it Tom Keep it up every 4 to 8 yrs we just get screwed from a different point of view. Check out MFPD Press secetary latest artical on the great TAX DECREASE failure. What a typical Call puff piece. Himer hasnt saved us a dime and he just keeps buying prop like they have the money. Sunset hills is loosing its only close firehouse.
You certainly have a right to your opinion. But it seems obvious that the MFPD Firemen have no desire to even try to work with the board. This then, is so obvious that they appear to be an example of politics at its worst. Employees who have a great deal more self interest than community interest. This kind of arrogance from a union and sense of entitlement is not really beneficial to municipal employees. Unions I understand are one thing when there is profit and loss and stock and executives and bottom line, etc. but this does not spell municipality. This is another ballgame and when it plays rogue, I have to wonder where it is written they write the laws, not the taxpayers and officials. When employees think they call the shots, how does this affect our perception of their union?
When you have let this union help your campaign, your name is attached to this perception. What exactly do they gain from helping a candidate? And how does this benefit the taxpayer or the city?
Blogger 1:37 Did I mention union NO. Did I say anything about the firefighters NO. I just dtated a simple fact of whatis really going on in The MFPD Local 1889 has been demonized bye a certain individual or group they would love to work with Mr Hilmer if he would listen also they do not have contracts. And all FireFighter Unions work under a Statue of agreement I belive thats it. Its aginst the law for them to go on strike Just like police and nurses. Now I know you say I have a right to my opinion. As you do also I have never been in a union nor am I a firemen. But I do know song and dance when I see it and that is all hilmer is doing for Mehlville and sooner are later he is going to come after crestrwood again he is already destroying mutual aid. with your City. wake up partner he is not what he claims to be.
I would personally like to have a discussion with Mr. Hilmer and cover the things you mentioned. It would be the only way I could reasonably decide whether he is on target or testing the gods. And yes, I would have an open mind. I consider this that important.
12:56 Thank You at no time have I put anything on the local blogs that hasnt been able to be backed up. When a person says he is looking out for your best interest. I tend to think of my father saying this is going to hurt me more than you when he dropped the hammer on me for poor behavior. I have kids of my own now and thats a complete lie. I suggest a loal blog called the Southcountynews. The man behind it a card carrying DEM but atleast he is honest and willing to meet half way. I respect his views even if I dont agree with him. Just Like I respect yours. and look forward to continuing our discussions with respect and politness toward each other. I leave my name and some time you might also. Take Care My Friend
Your comments are insightful and sound sincere. As for leaving names. Usually a proud idea. But when names like liberal, nazi, communist, socialist and illegal president and using Hussein - and realizing the overall nastiness ie. the signs, etc. all in what can be considered confrontational and derogatary are thrown around, one tends to realize there really is no way to recripricate in kind. No way to be encouraged to take the high road and no way signing with a name would prove anything because you would then have to take the hateful rhetoric personally with the returned notes maligning your opinions. No matter what some of us write, it is overwritten with the constant trashing of ideas which do not pass the ultracon stance.
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