Crestwood Courts (Nee Plaza) where the big stores are not!
Ladies and Gentlemen, it would appear we are at the crossroads of either making something out of what is fast becoming nothing, or just sitting on the sidelines watching the rest of the County pass us by.
In my opinion we can no longer sit idly by and wait for yet another proposal from the good folks at Centrum properties to filter down to the City Fathers. We expected great things when the new owners took the helm, after all they were "locals" who grew up at the old Plaza. So far what we received is not exactly the greatest thing since, well, anything.
I for one believe it's time to play a bit of the old St. Louis hardball with our friends from Chicago. We should advise them of our ever growing concern over the lack of use, and the potential for vandalism and crime that empty space seems to bring with it.
Tell them that we expect (and demand) that something be done, and very soon else we move to blight the property in the very near future. It's been four years of ever growing tenant loss to the point now that about all that is left is an eyeglass store.
Now as to the viability of a TIF, TDD, CID to "help" the developer along the way, I say absolutely not! Why, well we already have one of the highest retail tax rates in the County and we do not need another percentage point anywhere in Crestwood. Also every time this is done our school district looses funding that they can ill afford.
Now, what are your thoughts, and why please.
Tom Ford
NO. 1030
In my opinion we can no longer sit idly by and wait for yet another proposal from the good folks at Centrum properties to filter down to the City Fathers. We expected great things when the new owners took the helm, after all they were "locals" who grew up at the old Plaza. So far what we received is not exactly the greatest thing since, well, anything.
I for one believe it's time to play a bit of the old St. Louis hardball with our friends from Chicago. We should advise them of our ever growing concern over the lack of use, and the potential for vandalism and crime that empty space seems to bring with it.
Tell them that we expect (and demand) that something be done, and very soon else we move to blight the property in the very near future. It's been four years of ever growing tenant loss to the point now that about all that is left is an eyeglass store.
Now as to the viability of a TIF, TDD, CID to "help" the developer along the way, I say absolutely not! Why, well we already have one of the highest retail tax rates in the County and we do not need another percentage point anywhere in Crestwood. Also every time this is done our school district looses funding that they can ill afford.
Now, what are your thoughts, and why please.
Tom Ford
NO. 1030
posted by Crestwood Independent at 07:46
62 Comments:
Tom,
Well stated and thought out. Thank you for sharing.
Tim Trueblood
The desperation of the mayor and BOA will give Centrum everything they want. I would love to be wrong on this.
1o:10 AM Blogger: I hope your wrong on this as well. I think we still have some very wishy-washy folks (and at least one world class weather vane) permeating that Board who would give the farm keys out to ? and for nothing.
However we also have a mayor and a at least three Alderman who will fight the free lunch program and are willing to move this forward now.
Time will tell where the others stand, I only hope it's on the side of reality.
Tom Ford
Centrum properties does not retain a very good track record for redevelopment of these former malls. Two years ago a property Centrum purchased at a fire sales went bankrupt and was sold at a fire sale.
I do hope our esteemed aldermen trust but verify the track record of these folks before any business is consumated.
How do you suggest we "play Hardball"? They own it, not the residents. We can tell them what we want til our heads fall off, and,.....they own it, the residents don't. Do you have some special trick you aren't sharing?
10;19 PM Blogger: WE ALL know who owns it, now if you re-read the thread you will see hoe to do it.
Call your Alderman and ask them what I am talking about here, it's a simple first move, just like a chess game.
Tom Ford
Citizens united will have a powerful effect. Attend the meetings and express the wish to increase the responsibility required to obtain tax payer funding.
Chess is a good comparison....it explains why we all feel like pawns....in some game that we have no control over.
Please explain what blighting the property will do. Is that the same as comdemning it?
I encourage all who read this blog to go to Centrum's websie to read their description of the proposed redevelopment, along with their assessment of its potential customer base.
Although the renderings for the redevelopment are just ideas at this point, it seems that parking lots without much green space will be a main feature.
Martha Duchild
I agree with 10:19. Citizens of Crestwood do not own it. I also am not sure if we are in a position to be extremely picky. And No we do not want to "hand over the keys" - but we don't have the keys in the first place.
But I am also sick of seeing all that land go to waste sitting there year after year.
We have a bad reputation of being over the top with our stipulations on commercial enterprises. Sure people love to live hear and raise their children. But we have not gained a bad reputation for nothing! I can tell you we were extremely hard on anyone coming into Crestwood.
We had so many stipulations that starting a business in Crestwood, cost owners a fortune - with buffers here and trees there and this and that. You would not believe the list of things they had to do to be a business in our city.
I say we investigate the owners and look at what we have to loose? Columbus took a chance!
I don't know that much about TIF's or the rest, except that these avenues help developers develop. I am sure that there is another side that isn't that good for everybody, but let's not be stupid and cut off our nose to spite our face.
I say be vigil, but don't stand up and cross your arms in front of developers negatively.
Tom, you just need to calm down a bit. Give these guys some space for heaven's sake. You would rather cruise by Crestwood Plaza like it is, rather than give someone a chance to make it better?
Developers have also been hit by this downturn in the economy. Let's just give them a chance before you all stand up in the chambers with "clubs" and "boxing gloves".
I am just saying.....
8:00 AM Blogger: It's not the same, however it's the first step, and it will get their attention.
Tom Ford
3;27 PM Blogger: Sandy, you be patient, it's been four years and NOTHING!
How long do you suggest we wait, till there are tumbleweeds blowing down Watson Road?
Given the leeway there will be nothing in our future for yet another four years, so now what?
What you will See however is the developer's saying that without TIF,TDD, CID it's not possible to do anything.
I say, horse feathers, they bought their ticket and they need to pony up the money to make it work or sell it.
Tom Ford
Sandy
No tar.feathers or clubs. Expect the business to succeed on its own merit. No subsidies without a written contract of performance.
Sappington Square received what they requested. They served the city with an underperforming area where once tax generating businesses once existed. Filed bankruptcy.
The aldermen still have not taken the necessary steps to end the subsidy. The time is now. Set an example of expectation standards.
Well thanks for your comments. And you two previous commenters have made your points. And I cannot agree or dissagree. I just know that these are difficult times for everyone right now. We have all felt it with our own issues. OK Tom horse feathers you may say - but without assistance how many developers out there do you feel have the money in their coffers to pay cash these days for anything. 8:22 pm The business once established can succeed on its own, but I hope with the way our economy is going, you can find a developer who can finance this or any other development without asistance; otherwise what you see now on that property - is what you will be left with. A Mall barely on life support! It may not bother you, but it sure bothers me.
I'm just saying......
Sandy,
Remove the gloves. This is business. Not charity. If you believe subsidizing is the answer then open your wallet, give them a subsidy with no expectations for performance, experience failure, and then let me know if you want to participate again.
If you want to participate in risk reduction for a business I have one that is waiting for a loan with no responsibility attached.
If The city of Crestwood thinks Centrum is going to build this with Centrum money ..Then I got a bridge for sale....wait a minute....didn't we do that already?
I also have a problem with their ‘type’ of stores. That would be 3 grocery stores within a mile; fitness club wherein 2 have failed thus far. Multi Screen; here comes the punks and skaters from south county every weekend who will take over the patio and play in the fountain. It looks just like another strip mall to me.
The stores are chosen to generate revenue not to make friends and influence people.
The old Crestwood is finished. Either adapt or leave.
OK guys - tell the mayor and board you like the plaza just like it is! You got this all wrapped up before the thing even starts. As soon as the builder says TIF - hang him at dawn in the mall! I am just trying to give the developer a chance to give us his presentation. Looks like I am by myself on this one.
This is the same attitude that was the start of the fall of Crestwood as "THE" retail center of South County. It all started with a single pole sign that Outback Steakhouse wanted because they were going to go into the very back of the old Circuit City Shopping Center. The Crestwood powers at be didn't like signs and made life miserable for Outback. This was noticed by retailers and developers who started looking west to Fenton and to Kirkwood.
Crestwood was able to turn it around in the late 90’s and early 2000’s with Kohl’s, Sams, Gordman’s, Shop’n Save. All had a TIF, TDD or CID.
Sadly , Crestwood is in no position to “demand” anything. Any redevelopment at the “mall” will need a TIF & a CID. What Centrum proposed is unique and moves away from a traditional retail heavy project into an entertainment centered development. Crestwood has to understand that its days as “THE” retail destination in South County are over. It needs to protect the remaining big box retail that it has left and provide whatever assistance it can to remove the cancer of Crestwood Court. Crestwood is not being asked by Centrum to provide any existing tax dollars. The people who would watch a movie, eat at restaurant would pay the bill.
If Crestwood doesn’t want to play ball with Centrum, then put a Bond issue on the ballot and offer Centrum whatever an independent appraiser thinks the property is worth. My guess is that Centrum would be happy to get that and then Crestwood, as owner, could “demand” whatever it wants.
It's still not too late for Centrum to unload this property.
The problem is that the mall footprint is outadated, and to try to patch together something to fill a modified configuration of this footprint is not an economically viable solution. The BOA would be foolish to make a long-term investment (TIF money) in a project that does little more than repeat a tired, dated blueprint for a retail redevelopment that sits on a tired, dated footprint.
The reason I directed people to Centrum's website is to help those commenting on this blog understand that Centrum's evaluation of the potential customer base, along with their deliberate omission of competing retail in describing the commercial environment is worrisome at the very least.
The most viable option for this property is unfortunately a very expensive one - a complete demolition, asbestos remediation, and an elevation of the property up to street level. Only then will it be ready for a new, economically sustainable life - in whatever unique form that takes.
Martha Duchild
Martha, the complete demolition idea to me would be the ultimate desire. Perhaps it would be attainable but unfortunately with the economy and the state of it everywhere in this Country not being great or even good, there is no one busting down our door to build it.
I also agree that long-term investment commitments with TIF's etc. are not the greatest idea.
But there doesn't seem to be anyone out there who is willing to speculate or gamble, and take this giant leap of faith to do it.
I think we are stuck. If retail statistics could show that it is worth it to take the gamble and the retail numbers start climbing, more developers would appear on the horizon.
Let's say that we did get someone who would be willing without TIF money to do the complete demolition and all of it, plus set up retail owners willing to be part of it - if the economy doesn't cooperate, it would fail and everyone would loose their investment.
This comment has been removed by the author.
would like to know what Centrum was thinking when they purchased this property? Did they see a way to make money with it and if so, how?
I realize that the location and physical layout of the property makes it very difficult and expense to become competitive. But everybody knew then of these problems as I'm sure Centrum knew when they made the purchase.
The goal of Centrum is to make a profit on what they buy and develop. Can anyone explain to me how they could be doing that since they took the Mall over? I sure can't see how! If they are losing money every month since 2008 (is that when they bought it?)by owning the Mall, how long can they continue to do so?
My question is not what the Mall is costing the City in it's current state, we know that and as a City we have made budget moves that address that. (Not perfectly, but the budgets now reflect the real income the City can expect.) My question is what is the Mall costing Centrum and how long can they absorb the loss before they really have to do something? Is this a case of seeing who will blink first, Crestwood or Centrum?
I feel we must be smart and focus on the business we have in Crestwood now. Support them, help them, while at the same time, watch our spending. We as citizens should work to redevelop the pride of living in Crestwood. That in it's self along with the action we take to show this pride, can and will attract shoppers to our business and new business to our City.
Tim
Trueblood
"It's still not too late for Centrum to unload this property."
To whom or what entity? No one is going to buy it.
What Centrum is proposing is to tear most of it down. Bringing it to "street" level is only necessary for box retail. Having it below grade is actually better for what they are proposing……entertainment is destination oriented. Centrum will commit tens of millions of their own $$$ into the project, plus funding all of the upfront TIF costs, probably close to $100,000,0000 all together. A TIF will be paid from the revenue from the project. If it fails to produce, then Centrum doesn’t get paid back… that is how a TIF works. If they think it will work, who are we to challenge that?
Centrum bought Crestwood Plaza in 2008 for $17.5 million from Westfield….. Westfield had paid $99.3 million ten years before in 1998. The recession and death of one of the Barket brothers probably didn’t help matters. There is s a significant lack of destination entertainment in South County. An upscale movie theater, with resturants, targeted retail oriented around a large open space might just work. Kids etc. can be handled through parental guidance policy.. I.E. no teens without a parent after 8:00PM.
12:28 pm and 12:46 pm - Now you are talking.....where were you a few comments back. All I got was flack even suggesting that it is worth a shot! I agree with both of you. Further, I like the idea of not raising the property to street level. I also think it would be better for what they are proposing. I appreciate your comments. Just do not mention TIF's on this thread or you will be sorry.
12:28 PM Blogger: "who are we to challenge that?" Are you really serious? I will tell you who we are, were he folks that will have to pay a higher sales tax at the stores (about 9.25%) on every thing we do or buy there!
Were also the same folks who will watch funding leave the Lindbergh School District as that is also how a TIF works, (doubt me, call the District office and ask them.)
Last but not least we are also the folks who will watch what we hoped would be others coming (they will leave in short order) to shop when they find out the same thing can be had at the Gravois Bluffs for less taxes on their purchases.
But don't let that bother you as you seem to believe that the TIF, TDD, CID free lunch wagon will dock at the Court's and all will be well!
Tom Ford
Tom:
You would pay 1% more IF you chose to patronize a redeveloped property. If you don't want to pay it, don't visit... Simple. Actually, Gravois Bluffs has the same 1% extra tax.
You are correct Crestwood’s overall sales tax rate is higher than Fenton, Kirkwood, and Sunset Hills because we have chosen to have others help pay for our fire department through an extra ¼ % sales tax instead of funding it through a property tax like these other communities do. What do you say to lowering the sales tax and replacing with a property tax?
As for TIF, you simply don't (or care to) understand how it works. Lindbergh School District loses no current revenue. They gain some property tax revenue IF the property is redeveloped while, while some of the extra revenue goes to help pay for the demolition and environmental remediation of the property. Without a redevelopment, they (and all taxing entities) will continue to lose revenue as the existing mall property will be assessed at a lower and lower rate as the property sets vacant and further deteriorates. (Commercial property in St. Louis County is partly valued on income potential. A vacant mall isn’t generating any income.) Surrounding commercial property owners will challenge their assessments as well and probably win their challenges, thus producing even less revenue. This is a death spiral that will sink all property values, including residential.
Please Tom, let’s have a discussion based on facts, and not emotion and misunderstanding.
The facts are simple. TIF, CDD, ETC. have failed to enrich anyone but the business people.
Sappington Sqaure failed and went bankrupt. We disrupted the flow of existing revenue in exchange for a risk(gamble) to obtain what? We moved a decaying house to another location where it continues to decay on a new foundation. We eliminated the opportunity to collect the revenue from the existing business in favor of new revenue which has failed to appear. We have lost that revenue for the last three years. Opportunity cost. We lost. The schools lost.
Kohls accomplished the meaningless exchange of revenue at Macy's and Diilards to them. No revenue gain received. In fact we kept none of the sales tax revenue generated. We paid off the bonds. End result. We lost revenue. Check it out for yourself. Ask those important performance questions before you rich into my tax money and freely give to a business who, as it should be, is in it for profit.
Take your head out of the sand and stop dancing to their tune.
Simple evaluation. If the project is profitable no subsidy is required.
If you need a subsidy to make the project successful something is wrong.
NO SUBSIDY. LET'S SET A NEW STANDARD AND STOP FOLLOWING EVERY ONE ELSE.
DO YOU HEAR THIS ALDERMEN TENNESON, DUNCAN, AND FOOTE.
7:41 PM Blogger: Who said they wanted a "vacant Mall?" Now as to a discussion with the facts, see the 9:31 post.
You have the facts, and they are that the majority of the TIF, TDD, CID programs are a drain on the City and the School district's they are associated with.
True enough that SOMEONE profits from this program, but WHO?
Tom Ford
I will never patronize a Crestwood business Until we get a Mayor with ethics and a backbone.
My business used to spend 50K + a year at Sams etc...no more.
7:41blogger
adjust to the lower evaluations. They are here to stay. Crestwood has been experiencing austerity issues for years in advance of the rest of the area and has failed to adjust appropriately. Our leaders (aldermen) are still busy debating liberalism vs conservatism. Similar to the same debates occurring at the county, state and federal levels.
The liberals have hit the wall of resistance referred to as running out of others people money.
Time to adjust our expectations folks.
To 6:13 AM June 20:
What does the Crestwood mayor's behavior have to do with your shopping at Sam's?
To which mayor are you referring in your comments about ethics and a backbone? Do you have any facts to validate your comments?
Martha Duchild
"The facts are simple. TIF, CDD, ETC. have failed to enrich anyone but the business people"
Sams, Kohl's, Shop'n Save, Gordmans all have TDD, CID, TIF. They are what is keeping Crestwood afloat right now.
To 7:41 June 19th:
If you're interested in facts, the East-West Gateway Council has done extensive studies on the financial impact of TIF's, TDD's, and CID's and their reports are available for anyone to review.
The bottom line: redevelopment tax incentives do little more than shift retail tax dollars, and place school districts within those special taxing districts under additional financial pressure. Lindbergh, being a hold harmless school district, is already at a financial disadvantage at the state funding level, so any TIF's created within the district would place it at further disadvantage.
Tim Trueblood made an excellent point: what was Centrum thinking when they bought this property?
If Centrum bought the property with the intention of redeveloping it, it seems that estimations of the project's expenses and revenues would necessarily have excluded any tax incentives, as these are not guaranteed. I think the question that begs an answer is how did Centrum think that redeveloping this property could be profitable?
Martha Duchild
I have an idea kiddies! Let's sell the new BRIDGE that we can't use anyway to a private company for $750,000.00.
They can make a toll road out of it (Lord knows that $5,000.00 worth of signage should be enough.)
Oh wait, darn it the public is not allowed to use it, only the Fire Truck can get stuck on the other side.
Oh well, forget it.
Tom Ford
Gourdmans does not have a tax incentive levied. Star Bucks and the rest oF Sappington Square impose additional taxes.
Fifth Third Bank is excluded because that piece of property is not part of Sappington Square.
9:13 PM Blogger: Correct my friend There are many places in Crestwood that have not been granted (or even asked for tax incentives.)
This idea is a relatively new thing brought on by developers who have used it to force communities to issue it less they go elsewhere.
This is now expected to be the new "norm," and it has to stop somewhere, why not here and now?
Centrum has the proverbial 'elephant in the living room' on their hands, it's costing them a lot of money to just have it sit idly by minus tenants, trust me.
I fully realize they know what they are doing, they didn't get that size by being 'ineffective,' however that does not mean that Crestwood must bow at the alter of tax incentives just to satisfy them.
Remember, they are the ones with the payment book to the bank, Ameren, laclede, ETC, not us, so wait it out, do not give in to any demands or requests. We are in the best position on this one, not them.
Tom Ford
Reading the Call article....looks like they want tif money and plenty of it.(its a very difficult site to develop). DUH.
They will get everything they want.The BOA uses (tax) money to make their problems and mistakes fade away..
Anonymous said...7:46 AM, June 21, 2012
Since you know what the BOA is going to do in the future, maybe you can give the next Superbowl winner?
Example of the "BOA uses (tax) money to make their problems and mistakes fade away.." to support your claim.
Or can you?
The Rams will win the superbowl...!
and Ms. Eastman is on 'sabatical' right now.
Any questions?
"Gourdmans does not have a tax incentive levied"
Wrong, Gordmans got a CID, as did Crestwood Square etc. Kohl's, Watson Plaza and Sam's have TDD's. Kohl's and Watson plaza also have TIF.
What will happen if the redevelopment doesn't go through is that Centrum will simply default on their bank loan and walk away... happening every day in the commercial market.
They will take a large tax write-off and move on to their next project. Crestwood will be stuck with a bank-owned property.
The bank will try and sell it to a bottom feeder that will buy it for under $5 million and sit on it or turn it into something that Crestwood really doesn't want.
Meanwhile, St. Louis County will have reassessed the property for the purchase price, thus lowering the tax bill. Crestwood, Lindbergh Schools etc. will receive 2/3 less property tax then they get now. Surrounding commercial property owners will challenge their assessments using specialized firms who take a portion of the reduction as their fee. Happing every day in the commercial market.
The bank will try and sell it to a bottom feeder that will buy it for under $5 million and sit on it or turn it into something that Crestwood really doesn't want.
Like what for example would that be,
a bridge to nowhere in Whitecliff Park?
The bank forecloses on the mall and turns it into something we really don't want ...
Or Centrum takes many millions in tax incentives to give us a Toby Keith restaurant, a bowling alley, and a movie theater (three of the "entertainment destination's" major attractions). Hmmmm ...
Martha Duchild
I say we level it and turn it into a green space. Have the BOA put their engery into filling the already new construction that is still vacant.
What pray tell is a "Toby Keith" restaurant, and what makes it so special in some minds?
Personally I have never heard of the restaurant (or chain) so I am wondering why it may be asking for tax money to open.
Tom Ford
Actually Toby Kieth's net worth probably exceeds Crestwoods.
If only the Mayor And the BOA could harmonize we wouldn't need him.
If Centrum properties purchased the property counting on tax incentives to create a plausible project shame on them. Bad business. Tax incentives are not guaranteed.
We already have a bowling alley.
Shame on us for subsidizing the competition
We already have health clubs.
So far I believe Centrum is testing the temperature of the tax payers. With lees than 50 per cent commitment I smell Sappington Square Two.
The options seeem to be..
1. Leave the mall as it is in the hope that Terminator 17 can be filmed there in 2025,
2.Give Centrum everything they want to build Camalot.
3.Make a park.
vote now phone lines are open...
So I guess rather than have TIF's or CID's etc. attached, it seems to be the view of this blog that the owners plan - no matter what it is - should be denied if they seek help from the government to develop the Mall.
All we can do is speculate which we have read with over 50 comments. We shall see what comes out of this issue.
I cannot even fathom a piece of property as big as Crestwood Plaza rotting away and deteriorating; I also cannot imagine how much the owner is paying when it is just sitting there with no monies coming in.
We have survived (barely) without the mall. If Centrum cannot develop it on their own; no TIF, CID, etc. I say let them default and turn it into a park or walking mall. Creswood could use a downtown. Do we really need to keep up with the Jones'?
2:17 PM Blogger: Sandy, WE are the Government, it's our tax monies that the Government gives out like candy.
As far as this project goes, I say draw the line, no funding from US is needed, nor should it be forthcoming.
Tom Ford
Poor me. Poor me. Poor me
Oh sympathy. Oh sympathy.
Sandy
From your kind heart and the tax payers wallet I also have a proposition for development of a property I own in Crestwood.
The property has the same qualities as Centrum.
Historical. In fact older than the mall
No occupancy.
No guarantee that I will provide revenue.
Cannot move forward without your money.
That is all I am willing to say about the project.
Could I expect your support.
"What pray tell is a "Toby Keith" restaurant, and what makes it so special in some minds?"
I have no idea. Maybe you could get a "Beer for my horses" brew or a "How do you like me now" ham sandwich! Reminds me of the pizza place by Al from Happy Day's in Crestwood Plaza's basement years ago in the mid-1980's. I think it lasted about 5 minutes.
It's not my money any more.. house for sale.!!..I'm out of here...!!!
Arrogant leadership was the tipping point.
6;44 AM Blogger: We will miss you, sorry that you have decided to just leave rather than change the "Arrogant leadership."
Unless you move to a desert island the same things will befall you my friend. I say if you don't like the "leaders" stay and change them.
At any rate, good luck, the grass is always greener somewhere.
Tom Ford
10:11 PM Blogger: I an still waiting for you to tell me what a "Toby Keith" restaurant is as I have really never heard of it.
How about you just give me the answer please.
Tom Ford
Well for all the interested "Toby Keith's" parties here is the web site for the establishment.
http://www.tobykeithsbar.com/
Now, please tell me how this is going to 'spice' up Crestwood Court's, or for that matter Crestwood period.
Oklahoma, well yes, Crestwood, not that type of clientele.
Tom Ford
Centrum is desperate to sell the taxpayers with any and all enticements.
Please remember none of these are financially committed.
At best a letter of intent is all Centrum has.
This letters of intent are similar to the resolutions from Crestwood alderman. They are not legally binding and often rescinded.
A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on...or in Crestwood's case neither is a written contract.
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