Forget the "Crestwood Court's," Now it's the "District at Crestwood!"
I would like to 'revive' the debate on this project as the Board of Alderman are being asked to give a 40 Million dollar tax break to the developers of the renamed "District at Crestwood." Below is a copy of what I said earlier, and it seems to be as good a starting point as any, so........
6:36 AM, October 04, 2012
Crestwood Independent said...
"Well folks, my answer to any of this is fairly simple.
Centrum bought the entire property from Westfield for $17.5 million ( Westfield had roughly $12o+ million invested in it.)
So far we see that Centrum has made a shrewd business deal indeed. But wait, the recession hits, stores leave, and now the property is a literal ghost town minus the tumbleweeds (so far.)
As is the "new norm" business model of the new Century, Centrum wants a TIF, CID, and a TDD to "assist" them in their re building of a new "entertainment mecca."
Of course they do, I would too, however the reality is that Crestwood, the Lindbergh School District, nor the eventual customers can afford this luxury.
Yes, I said luxury as the real truth of the matter is that when you add all the taxes this would bring with it folks can, and will feel like they are in Chicago at the tax rate (10 1/4%.)
At the tax rate we will be fleecing them out of to pay these 'political sub division's back they might as well be!
Most of you know that I spent a career in small business, right? Well in good times and bad times I paid my own way, I never received a dime in tax money to support a project that I quoted, sold, and installed.
So what you say? Well I mention this because I feel that the developers should do it the old fashioned way, PAY FOR IT THEMSELVES! If they are such believers that this cannot fail, than let them build it, "and maybe we will come."
let's get back to the high tax rate for a second. Why would anyone go there when we could go to the Crestwood Bowl for a lot less , and do the same thing?
I also wonder why we would even consider 'throwing the Crestwood Bowl under the bus' in the first place? Are we saying that the word loyalty is outmoded in Crestwood?
This entire project as lined out by the developers is fraught with failure, and then what happens to the property? Well they try to find someone to buy it and were off to the poor house again!
Don't believe me? Did you notice the part where the 'prospective tenants' may be holding off commitment's to lease UNTIL AFTER Centrum secures the tax financing from the 'rube's?'(that would be us?) Why is that if this is such a 'sure thing?'
$40 million to 'assist' a developer in rebuilding a place they wish they had never had bought in the first place is in a word, ridiculous. In the words of the air traffic controller in the movie 'Airplane,' "They bought their ticket, they knew what they were getting into!"
Tom Ford
8:03 AM, October 04, 2012
6:36 AM, October 04, 2012
Crestwood Independent said...
"Well folks, my answer to any of this is fairly simple.
Centrum bought the entire property from Westfield for $17.5 million ( Westfield had roughly $12o+ million invested in it.)
So far we see that Centrum has made a shrewd business deal indeed. But wait, the recession hits, stores leave, and now the property is a literal ghost town minus the tumbleweeds (so far.)
As is the "new norm" business model of the new Century, Centrum wants a TIF, CID, and a TDD to "assist" them in their re building of a new "entertainment mecca."
Of course they do, I would too, however the reality is that Crestwood, the Lindbergh School District, nor the eventual customers can afford this luxury.
Yes, I said luxury as the real truth of the matter is that when you add all the taxes this would bring with it folks can, and will feel like they are in Chicago at the tax rate (10 1/4%.)
At the tax rate we will be fleecing them out of to pay these 'political sub division's back they might as well be!
Most of you know that I spent a career in small business, right? Well in good times and bad times I paid my own way, I never received a dime in tax money to support a project that I quoted, sold, and installed.
So what you say? Well I mention this because I feel that the developers should do it the old fashioned way, PAY FOR IT THEMSELVES! If they are such believers that this cannot fail, than let them build it, "and maybe we will come."
let's get back to the high tax rate for a second. Why would anyone go there when we could go to the Crestwood Bowl for a lot less , and do the same thing?
I also wonder why we would even consider 'throwing the Crestwood Bowl under the bus' in the first place? Are we saying that the word loyalty is outmoded in Crestwood?
This entire project as lined out by the developers is fraught with failure, and then what happens to the property? Well they try to find someone to buy it and were off to the poor house again!
Don't believe me? Did you notice the part where the 'prospective tenants' may be holding off commitment's to lease UNTIL AFTER Centrum secures the tax financing from the 'rube's?'(that would be us?) Why is that if this is such a 'sure thing?'
$40 million to 'assist' a developer in rebuilding a place they wish they had never had bought in the first place is in a word, ridiculous. In the words of the air traffic controller in the movie 'Airplane,' "They bought their ticket, they knew what they were getting into!"
Tom Ford
8:03 AM, October 04, 2012
posted by Crestwood Independent at 06:42
20 Comments:
I forgot to add that the tax rate will be 10.37 cents on the dollar if this lunacy goes through. And the "neighborhood" Grocery store (shown as "hole foods" yes HOLE with an H) is said to be a Walmart grocery annex store of all things.
If a Walmart Grocery Annex store shows up at that location you will see the departure of one or two of the three Grocery stores we now enjoy on Watson Rd.
I was also wondering why if this is so great an idea there are NO pre lease signatures on the dotted line? You see a "contingency lease" is just that, no tax forgiveness, no lease, so why has no one signed up yet?
Tuesday night is the date for the Alderman to discuss this "project," and it would be a very good idea if you attended to tell them how you feel about giving away the farm keys to developers who can afford to "do it themselves."
Failing that, please look up the Crestwood Site on the right hand side, find their number and call your Alderman, tell them what your feelings are reference another "pig in a poke."
Tom Ford
I saw that in the Times, that they wanted to bring a Wal Mart in. NOT a great idea.
6;14 PM Blogger: Not if you enjoy, as I do, the variety of Grocery stores we have now.
Memo to the BOA: Look past your term to your "legacy," and then tell us if ANY OF YOU believe this will ever work.
Tom Ford
I personally will be feeling the loss of Johnny's very badly, and I was hoping for another grocery with that feel to it. Wal Mart doesn't cut it.
10:56 PM Blogger: I can sympathise with that 'loss.'
My wife has started to shop at "Freddie's market" on Big bend, Webster groves (as well as Shop & Save on Watson Rd.)
She has found the people to be very friendly the food products fresh and they will have "Amish raised Turkey's" this Thanksgiving (outstanding if you have never tried one.)
Stores come and go, it's a fact of the retail business, but lately they have been going much faster than they are coming.
As that is also a fact, please (BOA) tell us how a "District" that charges 10.37 cents tax on the dollar can ever hope to survive with so many other outlets purveying the same things in such close proximity?
Tom Ford
The BOA is going to vote on a resolution reference the TIF and associated programs for Centrum!
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/s-admin/plugins/events/uploads/Board%20of%20Aldermen/Resolution%20Approving%20Centrum%20Partners%20LLC%20_Preferr.pdf
Please call you Alderman and tell them to vote NO before we get into more that we will ever be able to handle money wise!
Tom Ford
Good news from the BOA meeting last night via email from one in attendances!
"JOIN me in being Pleasantly Surprised...
The Mayor & Board of Aldermen voted the current
Re developer DOWN at tonight's meeting by a vote
of 5 NO to 3 YES ( Ald. Duncan / Wallach / Foote )
After 2 + hours of discussion, we were not prepared
to expect to win....The main point was that the
Re-developer was unable to provide ANY commitment
from ANY Stores... ALSO..A Spokesman from LINDBERGH
HIGH made a presentation AGAINST the TIF $$$
and how much they would loose.. NO...the 300 people who
attended the TOWNHALL MTG did not show up...Just the
usual few of us...YES our heads were spinning, it was
demanding...that long..( 7:00 - 10:00 ) and some of us
sat out in the foyer, afterwards, discussing it all..
Like...M. Duncan made a proposal near the end, to
re-draw our boundaries..to get rid of the " annexed area "
inasmuch as we now MUST pay $450,779.15 to Afton Fire Dist. by Dec. 31st, We annexed that area in 1998"
Tom Ford
Dropping the annexed portion from the city does sound like a good idea. They bring virtually no revenue to the city. Think of the money the city could save besides the obvious $451K to Affton Fire by not having to maintain their streets or provide them police protection. Speaking of police, there's another spot where we could all save money. Dissolve and go with County. You all didn't want your tax money spent on the mall redevelopment and don't want your taxes raised, so it will be time to start the cuts.
10;29 Am Blogger: Apparently you missed the part about "redrawing the boundaries, right?
That dose not mean "dropping" the annexed area.
I am sorry that you wont get to pay the 10.425% tax rate (actual number last night,) but if you wish I am sure the City will gladly take the excess on every purchase you make in Crestwood, just ask them (you do shop in Crestwood right?).
As it seems your very enamored with ST.. Louis County may I suggest you place a for sale sign in the yard and "vote with your feet?"
You see most of us (that would be the majority of us) are happy with the Police and Firs as they are, and were not interested in change be it a move to County, or a "District" that would fail with our money wasted.
Tom Ford
That was a 4.0 performance by our Mayor and the Board Of Alderman last night, excellent job ladies and gentlemen!
I agree that the "lines" for the fire district are a bit absurd, and Ms. Duncan was more than right in suggesting we get that changed!
Now were acting like a cohesive community! Tell the Centrum boys to put up their funds and get it done, or sell it to someone who will!
Tom Ford
I applaud the aldermen who had the good sense to reject Centrum's proposal. A little bit of research reveals that Centrum went on a buying spree during the housing boom, and is now facing lawsuits from banks (in the hundreds of millions) over its failure to repay loans. With this financial history, there is no way any bank would loan Centrum money to complete the project in Crestwood.
With the "no" vote, the city has positioned itself well for any further negotiations.
As for the fire district boundaries, there is nothing Crestwood can do on its own; those boundaries and the establishment of the districts were done at the state level. Any effort to make changes would have to be accomplished by contacting your state representative.
Martha Duchild
I hope that none of our sitting Alderman will ever decide to "change" their vote (unless it's to a NO vote) on this tax folly should it come up ever again (and it probably will come up again,) as this "district" will never fly folks.Would YOU pay 10.425% tax to toss a bowling ball when you can use the Crestwood Bowl for a lot less?
Please look up Centrum Properties based in Chicago, do a search on the Illinois Secretary of States site for their LLC's (other companies) filings, see for your self why this is the wrong idea for Crestwood.
For once (if it comes up again,) please have your Alderman swear to Vet this completely and report back to YOU before we get into a 20-30 year tax subsidy mess we don't need or want. Get the real results, don't allow silly emotions to get in the way, and TELL your Alderman were not going to pay that tax by anyone's wildest hallucinations!
Tom Ford
Tom:
What is your plan for the mall? Please share!
What a curious question to ask, especially considering that Tom does not own the mall property.
It is not the public's responsibility to come up with plans for private property; that's the equivalent of asking you what your plans are for your neighbor's back yard.
It is the property owner's job to do what they want (within legal limits) with the property they own.
Rejecting the developer's proposal does not obligate the person rejecting the idea to come up with an alternative. That job rightly belongs to the property owner.
Martha Duchild
re: 10:29 AM, October 10, 2012
I agree with you that the annexed portion of Crestwood was a bad idea, (I voted against it twice)and it was totally inspired by tax-revenue GREED of what was a K-Mart located there once upon a time. Unannexing that area would be very unlikely. Seems like the axiom of "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered" should be the lesson learned.
I do disagree with you about going with St Louis County PD. If the day ever arrives when Crestwood can't afford to provide BOTH Police and Fire services, then there would be no reason for Crestwood to exist.
5:55 PM Blogger: What's MY plan for the Crestwood Court's?
Well in the first place that's a moot point as I do not own it.
Second, if your asking about the political sub divisions (tax subsidies,) I am firmly against it, period!
The owners of that property knew what they were getting into when they bought it at the "fire sale."
Now times have changed for the worse, and they want US to help pay for the purchase of it as well as fund the start up of a new project. It Sort of reminds me of the Wimpy cartoon, "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger I can have today."
Crestwood is surviving without the tax monies that were generated by that space, and we will continue to survive IF the BOA uses common sense when allowing further expenditures.
Would it be better with a new retail establishment in place? You bet it would, but not if WE (and the school district) have to pay for it.
In closing, were "good to go" on this, they have the "elephant in the room," not us, so let them get themselves out of the hole (we will provide the "ladder," consumers,) they must provide the stores to attract them.
Tom Ford
Annexation, Kmart, Greed and Crestwood.
Kmart did not add any sales tax dollars to Crestwood. If you read the rules regarding annexation you would know that.
The annexation was an effort to slow down the decline in Crestwood's population numbers. You see under the greedy democratic led County Council the sharing of sales tax $ with other cities, was based on the population of a City. The annexation was an attempt to hold more of the sales tax $ collected by Crestwood, in Crestwood. Had nothing to do with the sales tax dollars from Kmart of for that matter the New and Improved Creston Center. The city only share of the tax dollars they got from that property was what it got BACK from the County based on its population!
Truth is if the citizens had gotten behind the leadership of the city at that time, Crestwood would have a development like Kirkwood has in their downtown area, condos, shops, etc. But the owners of the New and Improved Creston Center after slapping some paint on their property and closing down the out property booze/smoke shop fought the plan tooth and nail.
You will notice now how nice the city's entrance from the east looks compared to what it could have been by driving to Kirkwood. No not for sales tax $, but to increase city's population, allowing the city to keep more of what they earned.
I agree with what you are all saying; but it scares me to death to think that what use to be one of the greatest places to shop will, if no one steps up to the plate, become run down and stand dormant! What is that going to do to our property values - if that happens and it could happen.
I don't feel that there will be anyone who will try to redevelop Crestwood Plaza without TIF monies or some assistance! Who in the world could, in these bad times. We have already put it out there, and no one was beating down our door to come in and redevelop it!
So it is either sink or swim - and don't hold your breath waiting for anybody to come to our rescue.
The Plaza is a very, very big place; if it is not developed we are going to see deterioration and we will have an even bigger eye sore. You cannot let property lay dormant like that. Further, the very people who turned this issue down are the ones who will cry the loudest about what it looks like and the terrible condition that it is in further down the line.
I don't like TIF's either and I do understand what everyone has said but still......
All I do is pray for a miracle.
4:34 PM Blogger: Do not let the developers place that thought in your mind! This is exactly what they want you to think, no them, ruined property values.
In fact the BOA holds a couple of trump cards they can toss out whenever the going becomes interesting.
What's that you wonder? Well they can and must commence to have the code officer tour the site on a regular basis, find code violations and write them a summons to come to court.
Secondly, they can move to "rezone the property thus making it useless for all but residential development! What they must not do is "blight" the property as that would give Centrum a lower tax obligation and help them to sell it at whatever price for tax purposes.
Not time to worry yet, as I used to tell first time flyers who went up with me, "Don't be concerned, however if I start screaming, you can start worrying." in 40 years of being a "P.I.C," (Pilot in command) it never happened, so.............
Tom Ford
To 4:34 Oct. 16th
The mall property is just that - a piece of real estate. Fortunately for our community, it is a good piece of real estate in an area of attractive demographics. This, and not TIF money, is what motivates people to locate their businesses here.
While people have fond memories of the mall, it is no longer, nor will it ever be, what is once was. That's as it should be. Whatever is developed on that property must be as unique as the mall was when it first opened fifty years ago. Simply put, it can't be another mall, nor should it resemble anything like a mall or use the old mall's footprint.
The condition of the property will be fine as long as the city enforces existing codes (written to ensure that residences and commercial properties don't deteriorate to a blighted state).
By saying "No", the BOA compelled Centrum to decide whether it's the right developer with the right plan for this property. There are plenty of other developers who may be interested in this property given the right asking price.
Martha Duchild
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