I am starting this thread to cover the TIF, TDD, CID, Centrum properties questions only..
Ladies and Gentlemen, I have move the posts from the Board Meeting thread to it's own venue as there is more than enough interest to support a "thread of it's own."
I ask that you restrict your comments on this thread to the "District at Crestwood" proposal that has, and will be in the local news for some time to come.
Please note that your posts have been moved under this thread to consolidate the questions, answers, remarks, and general comments for all to see. As usual please keep it civil, and remember that ALL of us have the right under the Constitution to express our feelings, even though we may not agree.
Respectfully,
Tom Ford
NO. 1070
I ask that you restrict your comments on this thread to the "District at Crestwood" proposal that has, and will be in the local news for some time to come.
Please note that your posts have been moved under this thread to consolidate the questions, answers, remarks, and general comments for all to see. As usual please keep it civil, and remember that ALL of us have the right under the Constitution to express our feelings, even though we may not agree.
Respectfully,
Tom Ford
NO. 1070
posted by Crestwood Independent at 15:45
57 Comments:
Anonymous said...
Tom:
We are not "...giving up" ANYTHING that we currently have. Centrum must build the project and then they are entitiled to a half of the sales tax revenue from the NEW development to pay for demolition etc. Crestwood gets half as do the the other taxing jurisidictions. All fo the property tax increase goes into the pot. Half of somthing is better than all of nothing!
12:14 PM, November 15, 2012
Anonymous said...
Wasn't Centrum the only developer to respond to the RFP? I just want to make sure I'm reading this correctly...that a yes vote to reconsider that selection will be a rejection of Centrum's proposal and essentially put us back to square one with the mall?
Crestwood Independent said...
12:14PM Blogger: Well if your comfortable with a tax rate of over 10% to shop I guess that's OK. I however am not, so what say we give them 16 Million in a TIF (the amount they said would be needed for demolition) and then let them build from there.
Try that and watch the fur fly because they want the other 17 Million to pay themselves back, and they will howl like a mad dog if they don't get it!
I am surprised that your so easily taken in by this "idea" of theirs, why is that?
Tom Ford
2:20 PM, November 15, 2012
Crestwood Independent said...
12:14PM Blogger: Well if your comfortable with a tax rate of over 10% to shop I guess that's OK. I however am not, so what say we give them 16 Million in a TIF (the amount they said would be needed for demolition) and then let them build from there.
Try that and watch the fur fly because they want the other 17 Million to pay themselves back, and they will howl like a mad dog if they don't get it!
I am surprised that your so easily taken in by this "idea" of theirs, why is that?
Tom Ford
2:20 PM, November 15, 2012
Anonymous said...
Centrum must build the project and then they are entitiled to a half of the sales tax revenue from the NEW development to pay for demolition etc.
Support your use of the word "entitled" in our statement.
Tim Trueblood
3:28 PM, November 15, 2012
Anonymous said...
To 12:14 PM Nov. 15th
Half of something is better than nothing? Who thinks that's a good deal?
You're assuming that:
1. Centrum won't flip the property once TIF is granted.
2. Centrum will obtain financing to develop the project.
3. Centrum (who can't attract tenants to another of their developments in Ellisville even after having received a CID) has the ability to attract tenants to the Crestwood development.
4. The outparcels will give up their properties to Centrum (either through the city's use of eminent domain or through a greatly inflated price tag, which will naturally be added to any TIF granted).
5. The environmental remediation that needs to be performed at the old Dillard's site can be completed without adding to the demolition costs.
6. The development itself is wildly successful (Centrum's request for public assistance amounts to 30-40% if the total project costs) and can be paid off in 23 yeara.
7. The development provides a predictable enough revenue stream shortly after it's completed so that the city can issue bonds for the project.
8. The amount of debt the city assumes once it issues the bonds will not bankrupt the city should the development fail to produce the necessary revenues.
9. The developer will make improvements to the property and increase its value. To receive a TIF, the property needs to be blighted, thereby rendering it just about worthless. What happens if no development takes place? The city is left with a blighted piece of property (producing no property tax revenue) and no development.
10. Crestwood and the county can come to an agreement regarding the composition of the TIF commission.
11. All of the steps involved in the process occur in a timely manner (establishing the TIF commission, acquisition of the outpacels, demolition, environmental remediation, construction, etc.) so that the prospective tenancts don't walk away from the project due to time delays.
These are all huge hurdles to overcome, so yes, the city can lose. It can be left with a blighted piece of property and no development, it can be left with municipal bond debt and no incremental revenue to pay it off, and it can be left with a development that doesn't produce enough income to offset the public assistance granted to build it.
Martha Duchild
10:06 AM, November 16, 2012
Anonymous said...
Lets add to the list.
Property value is zero after blighting. Property tax currently supplied to the city and school district dissappears.
Neither the city or the school district can tolerate the loss.
They will now request additional residential property increases to race the commercial property tax lost.
The taxpayers experience an increased burden three times
10%. Or more sales tax to participate in the whatever business occupies the area.
Increase in the residential property tax from the school district
Increase in the residential property tax from the city.
Does not sound like a just burden to me.
What do you think?
10:17 AM, November 16, 2012
Anonymous said...
Martha, Tom, and Anonymous,
If Centrum were not seeking a TIF and CID, would you still be opposed to the proposed development of the District at Crestwood? If so, what type of redevelopment, if any, would YOU like to see happen?
2:13 PM, November 16, 2012
Crestwood Independent said...
2:13 PM Blogger: Well speaking for old Tom here, I am not opposed to whatever the owners want to build ON THEIR PROPERTY assuming it's in good taste, not vulgar, nor adult oriented book stores.
Please remember that the Centrum folks OWN this tract of land, we don't ergo it's really up to them to do the "design build" and bring it to the City for approval.
My problem is not with the what, but the how. You see Centrum is extended to the max as it is now with vacant properties that are not producing anything but headaches for them now, why add another?
IF they see fit to develop this minus a TIF, and the blighting they will surly want, I am fully in agreement with those who want to see the place developed. This of course WILL NOT HAPPEN!
Centrum has no one (that I know of) willing at this time to even sign a "prospectus lease agreement" (non binding) saying that they will POSSIBLY agree to open at the new location IF it's built, that bothers me a great deal, as it should you.
And then there is the sky high tax rate...........
Tom Ford
3:36 PM, November 16, 2012
I would not be opposed. As you should be able to understand I am against tax payers being forced to pay to produce profit for business.
We fought a revolution several hundred years ago to eliminate this sort of tyranny.
I would want see eminent domain eliminated.
Why financial repression will fail!
http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/ron-hera/why-financial-repression-will-fail
Slightly "OT" but none the less Germain to the project.
Tom Ford
4:58 PM Blogger: Yep, and I will be giving class soon on how to load a flint lock fusel!
The most important thing is the 4 FFFFg powder loading in the "pan," else you get a "flash in the pan" for results!
Just kidding, I of course am completely and adamantly against any of our tax moneys going to a developer who should have the funds to complete their project without radding our coffers!
Tom Ford
We can't order tenants as if we're choosing from a menu. We're not the property owners, and we're not prospective tenants.
Having said that, the best option for the mall property is to raize it (without taxpayer assistance) and then subdivide it into smaller parcels of varying size. This would offer flexibility, and would likely attract a different and unique mix of interested tenants. Marrying the development to the old mall footprint (which is what Centrum is essentially doing) is a recipe for failure.
Martha Duchild
Points to ponder BEFORE any sort of "political sub division" is granted to Centrum Properties.
http://www.roscoeviewjournal.com/news/old-lasalle-bank-building-stuck
(There are many more, if you want them, send me an email (tford60@earthlink.net) and I will forward them to you.
These are some of the issues that Martha Duchild read into the record at the last BOA meeting, and they are well worth major consideration.
Some are "older," some newer, but all go to the business climate in America today.
Do WE want to join what may well be the "new normal" in the developer business, or should we look at this long and hard before we end up with a major headache?
Tom Ford
Tom Ford
Sorry for the spelling error. I meant to write "raze" in my last post.
Martha Duchild
I saw in the St. Louis Business Journal that the old Northwest Plaza is being redeveloped. So I took a drive up north today to take a look…. thinking that I wouldn’t see much. WOW! There is a construction fence up and looks like they are getting ready to start tearing it down with heavy equipment. How on earth could they pull this off while Crestwood is fighting like cats & dogs? Does anyone know the details on how this was done?
3:13 PM Blogger: I moved your post to the election thread so we can keep this on the TIFs, etc. Thanks for the post.
Tom Ford
5:25 PM Blogger: The property was sold a while back to a developer who had the funding and the prospective lessee's to move forward.
None of the above seem to apply here, so were in a state of limbo for the time being.
Also, please remember that they are near a major highway (I-70) and we are "landlocked." That is one reason their developer has chosen that spot, and we have only one respondent to the RFP for the "Courts."
Tom Ford
From the "PATCH," interesting, no?
http://sunsethills-crestwood.patch.com/articles/crestwood-strip-mall-for-sale-o-reilly-auto-parts-demolishing-kfc
Tom Ford
Funny you should mention the Oreilly auto parts project.
I have not witnessed the city fathers running after this project with tax payer money yet.
What about hair grabber salon? Any tax payer money involved?
What about City Music? Any tax payer money involved?
I can go on and on about developments that did not request tax payer funding.
Are these the last of the real American businessman? You know the ones I refer too. The ones that assume all of the risk and deserve to reap all of the profits possible.
That seems to be a dying concept.
Socialism be damned.
6:54 AM Blogger: ALL of these fine companies come to the table with funding they have already secured.
They didn't want or need taxpayer's to prop them up (and by so doing raise their taxes at the point of sale.)
The really neat thing is that these companies will hire from the area, and sell us goods we will all want or need.
Now if that were not enough already, they did it the old fashioned way, they worked for their funding!
Tom Ford
Are you saying
THEY EARNED IT!!!!!!!!
To 5:25PM Nov. 17th
Alderman Duncan expressed the same incredulity at the work session with Centrum last week.
The Northwest Plaza redevelopment plan was submitted by PGAV 5 years ago in 2007. The property was in foreclosure until 2009, when Raven Development purchased it and submitted their own plans. Like any other publicly-financed development, this project took many years to get to the point of actual demolition.
Raven had financing for their portion of the costs in place, and also had tenants (a Menard's - imagine that). The city is responsible for issuing bonds to pay for $33 million of the total projected $106 million cost.
They can have their mall. It's 23 years of TIF, based on the assumption that this poject will be successful. But what sense does it make to re-build a mall that declined due to lack of support for retail and replace it with ... more retail?
The success of the proposed tenants is highly speculative. Can the area support this type of retail? Will people from surrounding areas want to drive to northwest county to patronize the mall's tenants when those same tenants can be found closer to home? Will St. Ann police be able to control the crime that contributed to the decline of the original mall?
The bottom line is that St. Ann is committing a lot of the other taxing districts' revenues to a project that, based on past history and current demographics, is unsustainable.
Martha Duchild
I am the first to say that I am not very smart but I would like to say my piece.
I am trying to wrap my old brain around the many comments and many facets that are involved in the revival and development of Crestwood Plaza.
In it's hayday, it was a real testiment to a wonderful and great city that had people from all over St. Louis shopping in Crestwood.
Remember at Christmas Time? I lived in Schrewsbury at the time. Nobody that I knew didn't shop at Crestwood Plaza at Christmas.
My husband, daughter and I drove up Watson Road for years inching our way to see Santa and shop. And with cars behind us driving at a "snail's pace" to get to Crestwood Plaza. It at times could take us 45 minutes to an hour to get there - that's how many cars were going west on Hwy 66 from the City of St. Louis.
Those days are long gone and will never return but I still love that mall property and want something nice to be there.
The only reason it isn't coming fast enough is "our economy" period! We are all suffering from it and it has been a major melt down in our Country.
OK for all I have stated above - everybody probably knows. Further all these negative things that we are stating about Centrum and TIF's are probably true - but my big question is:
Are we not going to have the same set of circumstances with "any" bidders? I can see what you are all saying, but it seems that at the last meeting when the Mayor broke the tie, the Lindbergh School District was present and I thought positive comments were made. To me - I was hoping this could be the start of "something"!
"Hurdles to climb" as so stated in some comments on this thread - are going to be there no matter who the developer is; the fact that no other entity has come forward is - as I said before - the economic impact of this stupid recesssion.
It has nothing to do with developers who are saying it would not be a viable endeavor - at least that's what I think!
I hope to whoever develops it can happen in the next year and that all the powers that be understand each other, work with each other. When the weather and time was ripe to build the Plaza in the first place - the only thing they had on their side -that developers don't have now is that the acquisition of revenues to build it were much more available. But they also had hurdles.
I say "hurdles" are here for awhile so ......let's make sure that the wind and weather blow in our favor. This is like waiting for a baby to be born. And even then - at the end of 9 months - we see a baby.
I am just say.............
9:46 AM Blogger:
Correct, that's exactly what I am saying! (GASP!)
Open letter to all who believe that "The district at Crestwood" is an easy build.
First I am sure that any building that age will be full of "asbestos." and therefore extremely expensive to clean up, (see Post Dispatch, front page, this morning.)
Second, when that parking garage is down don't be surprised if once again we find added costs to clean up the oil and gas spills the EPA will no doubt find in the ground.
Third even if they do level the garage it will take from 5 to 8 years for the ground to settle and compact enough for any sort of building to go up without major problems down the road.
I think we had better take a very long look at this "environmental remediation" monster BEFORE we sign on to anything that Centrum wants to do as this can really come back to bite US in a really big way!
Tom Ford
2:36 PM Blogger: "Are we not going to have the same set of circumstances with "any" bidders? I can see what you are all saying, but it seems that at the last meeting when the Mayor broke the tie, the Lindbergh School District was present and I thought positive comments were made. To me - I was hoping this could be the start of "something"! "
First of all Sandy, no we are not going to have the same set of circumstances with another bidder. That said, there is no other bidder, don't you find that interesting?
Second, the school district is there to protect the school district, not our residences, so forget that aspect for now.
Third, "this could be the start of something," well yes, but the start of what? This "project" comes with a lot of rabbits to pull out of the hat, so let's sit back and watch for a while.
I have mentioned the environmental aspect of this above, and I would not be for one shovel full of dirt being turned until we know EXACTLY what that is going to cost to the cent!
Tom Ford
"Alderman Duncan expressed the same incredulity at the work session with Centrum last week."
Really?, I would have thought she would have known all about it!
Tom Ford
Lindbergh merely stated the two parties had conversation and reached an understanding of the negative impact theTIF would cause. Lindbergh also stated that no solutions where offered by or agreed to with Centrum.
That is not encouraging.
By the way, what about us residential property tax payers. What say you when the Lindbergh School district and the city of Crestwood ask for an increase in property taxes to compensate for the loss the revenue from Centrum properties after the blighting results in zero property value
Sandy,
The reason other developers did not submit a response to the RFP was probably due to the fact that the property already had an owner and developer attached to it. It would not have been worth it for another developer to spend their resources on a property that was already spoken for.
Regarding the TIF, why on earth would anyone be willing to provide this developer public assistance when the majority owner of the property is one of the top 30 hedge funds in the world; its property investments alone total $13+ BILLION.
I would much rather let the property sit. Centrum's concept for the site uses the same footprint that has shown to have outlived its usefulness and desirability to consumers. As you said, the economy has stagnated, and there simply isn't enough disposable income in the surrounding area to support the type of tenants Centrum is proposing. They tried this concept in West Hollywood, and the project stalled before it even got off the ground. Mr. Barket mentioned success in Chicago with this concept (the Parks at Rosemont), but this is no surprise, as the location of the development is right by O'Hare airport and a convention center (hence, a built-in consumer base).
We shouldn't accept a proposal that isn't sustainable, especially if it cannot be delivered without public assistance. The original mall was built without a dime of public assistance. The only reason today's developers seek public assistance is because they can. The intent of the TIF laws was for areas suffering true blight. A property in the middle of the suburbs is not what this law was meant to address.
Martha Duchild
6;20 pm blogger: What about "us residents?" Well if you and I do our homework properly it should be no secret if the funds are actually needed or not.
I have a Grandson in the district and I am paying for the extra curricular activities such as soccer, baseball and basketball.
No complaints here as I knew a child was not "free," they do and will cost a few dollars to raise, and in today's economy ALL of the family should help the parents.
The City? well these folks operate on an account full of 'OPM' (other people's money) and as such are inherently prone to spending without looking as it were. With a City, I WILL watch where the money goes, and so should all of us!
There is a vast difference between "want and need." For instance, I want a new Ford F-150, I have a Ford F-159 with 307,500 miles on it, it runs just fine, so I don't need a new truck,ergo I will not buy one.
Now to plant that mentality on the BOA so that they too will see the distinct difference. We still have a lot of things that can be cut and closed before were even close to needing a tax increase. Make those changes and then come to me for more money.
Tom Ford
If you want to look on the bright side of the "District" question, be thankful were not going to be remembered for this silliness.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-are-retailers-ruining-thanksgiving-2012-11-19
Tom Ford
Have you heard of "Hyper inflation?" Well, if this happens you will have a first hand look at "the elephant in the living room."
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/treasury-secretary-geithner-lift-debt-limit-infinity
Tom Ford
The recognition of the difference between want and need is largely controlled by the pay as you go operating procedure used in Crestwood.
6:45 PM Blogger: Well that's certainly possible, but a "political subdivision" such as a TIF is a 23 year "hope we pay as it goes!"
Let these developers show us the money in hand, as well as the tenant list, and then we can start the negotiations, until then we have every chance of being the "goat."
Tom Ford
Who has to pay the bond holders of the TIF, if the developer starts the project and then stops because they do not have the resources to continue?
That's one of the problems with the proposal. No one knows whether Centrum will move forward with their original plan (complete Phase 1 before beginning Phase 2) or change gears and follow John Brancaglione's (PGAV) advice and fill the outlying lots from Phase 1 (old Macy's) and Phase 2 (Dillard's) first with whatever big box tenants will sign, then fill in the middle tenants after that.
There's no question that the demolition of Dillard's will take a long time - for the asbestos removal and for the fill to settle. Mr. Barket hopes to have tenants at the site by 2014; that's a joke.
My guess is whoever issues the bonds assumes the debt. But the bigger question is this: when will that project start producing a predictable revenue stream? With either of the proposed methods of filling in the project, there will be a delay (either waiting for Phase 2 tenants, or waiting for the middle tenants). No one can predict how long either will take, so there is no way to know when the bonds could possibly be issued. Additionally, the longer you wait to issue the bonds, the shorter the time period that is left to pay them off.
Martha Duchild
Everyone is getting ahead of themselves.
Lots of hurtles to overcome
First, the city/county Tiff council is formed. Three from the city, three from the county
Let the testimony begin
Simple majority required.
Second, if passed, the proposal returns to Crestwood BOA.
the testimony begins again. Let the people's voice be heard.
2/3 majority required. (Six votes).
Lots of work and lobbying for Centrum yet.
10:00 PM Blogger: OK, let's do just that, but I am betting on Centrum not being able to secure the financing any time soon.
Tom Ford
I am betting they cannot convince St. Louis county TIF to approve.the proposal. But money talks, whispers, in the background.
If the TIF Commission rejects the proposal, can the board still vote in favor of it?
I think that was done in other municipalities.
11:23 AM Blogger: They can vote on whatever is on the agenda. That said, where does the funding for a TIF come from if County says no?
Tom Ford
If the county rejects the proposal the project stops.
1:26 PM Blogger: My point exactly, and why should the County (or for that matter Crestwood) approve of a "pig in a polk?"
Tom Ford
According to state law, the St. Louis County TIF commission no longer needs to be convened. An amendment to the state TIF laws provides that if the census shows a population of less than 1 million in St. Louis County, the county TIF commission cannot be convened.
What is interesting about this is that the most recent census for St. Louis County (2010) shows the population is 998,954 (well within a statistical margin of error). Shrewsbury just reconvened their TIF commission for the proposed Wal-Mart, and they made an arrangement with the county to have 3 representatives appointed by the county and 3 representatives appointed by Shrewsbury (in addition to the required representation from the other affected taxing districts).
It would appear that the likely scenario for Crestwood is to make a similar arrangement with the county. The issue would then be whether the BOA has enough "yes" votes to overturn a rejection by the TIF commission. With a 4-4 tie on the resolution, it is likely the BOA would not have the majority needed to overturn a rejection by a TIF commission.
Martha Duchild
This certainly could be a issue for the upcoming BOA election.
Could Centrum attempt sponsor a vote or two?
2:32 PM Blogger: Why yes they could, why not?
I doubt however that they will need to "sponsor" anything as they seem to be good to go vote wise as it is now.
Tom Ford
How do you count the votes? Six YES votes are required for approval.
9:09 PM Blogger: "It's not the vote that counts, it's WHO counts the votes." (Joseph Stalin)
Now in Crestwood there are five to proceed, don't you think another can be garnered to make the magic six?
Tom Ford
The votes must be composed of six votes from the eight sitting aldermen.
8:01 AM Blogger: Thank you, that is correct my friend, however the eight sitting Alderman seem to be in disarray so to speak.
Lets wait till Tuesday night's meeting and see what they ALL have to say.
Tom Ford
The agenda for Tuesday so far:
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/events/events.php?day=2012-11-27&action=
Tom Ford
There's an article in the online version of the Post that mentions Menard's as the new tenant for a development in Richmond Heights.
Menard's will be within miles of a Lowe's and a Home Depot.
Is it conceivable that Mendard's also wants to be Centrum's tenant in Crestwood?
Martha Duchild
Martha
Where is the value?
What would attract you to menards vs Home Depot vs lowes? I certainly would not pay more tax for the privilege of shopping at menards.
5:39 PM Blogger: Forget the stores, forget the so called "drawing cards," where is the value in paying 10.425% tax for anything?
Crestwoods problem is not what stores will (maybe, could be.....) in this development, but the enormous taxation on the customer.
That very tax will move shoppers to other more tax "friendly" strip stores, malls, and stand alone stores, not to mention cuber shopping.
We really need to wake up and tell this developer to stick more cash into this or sell it to someone who can and will.
Tom Ford
Interestingly enough, the economy just took another hit thanks to the spending and the Treasury Department.
Do we still think that the Centrum idea is that great?
(From another forum, "second amendment."
Here is one reason why were doomed!
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/blac...r-thanksgiving
Little timmy geithner (AKA tax cheat) has "borrowed" another 24 to 26 Billion last Friday!
Now where besides the 449 volt printing presses will this money come from to pay that back? Answer, NOWHERE!
Standing by in the wings we have HYPER INFLATION! The likes of which haven't been seen since per WW2 Germany, and we all know what happened there.
tford (VSM-OFC) (Tom Ford)
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2
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