Tax and spend crowd on the Crestwood Dias strikes again!
http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-Opinions-i-2013-02-20-265389.112112-Voters-sure-to-remember-city-officials-fiscal-folly.htmlIn an article by Mr. Mike Anthony (see above) we note that the old tax and spend OUR money is still alive and well in Crestwood!
The four horsemen of the ridiculous (Duncan, Foote, Tennison, and shockingly enough Miguel, have voted to spend $34,000.00 more of our money on a pool service company with (get this,) the same requirements, service, and training as the one not chosen for less money!
Well, why not right? After all it's only OUR MONEY these ultra distinguished financiers are tossing about. Why not "feel sorry" for the fact that their apparent favorite pool people came in high this time, why not "reward" them anyway?
I was reflecting on this and all in all the only thing I can see we may get for the extra cash is more flamboyant speedo swim suits, I mean chlorine is what it is, the cost of pool maintenance is what it is, and training is mandated by the State and County, so were back to the swim suit's, no?
Well, I know that some of you have been termed out, and some of you are just leaving (thank God,) but what have you done to the people who will replace you? Think about the fact that NO TAX INCREASE will be allowed to people who have demonstrated that they have no idea how to handle the peoples funds, NONE!
You four should be really proud of yourselves, in fact you ALL deserve the Everett Dirksen award for financial excellence, you know the one that says, "a billion here, a billion there, before you know it, it's real money!"
Tom Ford
NO. 1093
posted by Crestwood Independent at 06:21
76 Comments:
Addendum to the missive folks:
You know after further reflection I know Alderman John Foote is 100% right when he said that "other things will have to go!"
John, having said that are you now willing to lead the movement to save that $34,000.00 by terminating the duplicate position of Animal control officer?
After all, you promised me you would a couple of years ago when then C/A Eckrich call for the end to it, so now the time to "show me" your sincere in your word!
Tom Ford
Meanwhile our streets are falling apart. Has anyone on this board driven Pardee Road behind Grant's Farm lately? It was in much better shape when the County maintained it.
9:03 AM Blogger: No time for that now, they must worry about the now, they must concern themselves with the new swim suit's and the dog catcher don't ya know!
We may not be able to get an emergency vehicle through there, but darn it the people stranded on the other end will look great!
Tom Ford
i don't guess it's occurred to anyone that maybe there was a reason for that choice that they didn't email you about? Have you inquired or are you leaping to conclusions without investigating?
12:50 PM Blogger; I am sure it "occurred" to at least four people, now didn't it!
Why don't YOU tell us what it was since I must have missed the email you spoke of.
Tom Ford
Obviously I have no idea, which would be why I asked you if you had even considered that possibility before rendering the decision makers guilty. I will assume from your answer that you did not, in fact, consider that perhaps someone is weighing something you know nothing about.
The only thing that needs to be weighed here is how much this service costs. This is the reason we have a bidding process: Invite vendors to bid on the contract, whoever can deliver the best service at the lowest cost should get the contract. Why have RFP's & RFQ's if the BOA is going to ignore the results?
What message does this send to vendors? Further still, what kind of message does it send to city staff? Everyone from the Mayor, the City Administrator, and the BOA should lead by example. If they want city staff to make the effort to save money, then administrators and elected officials should be held to the same standards they set for city staff.
Martha Duchild
4:50 PM Blogger: "Obviously I have no idea." Humm..........
OK, well since it was not logic or good sense, it had to be emotion!
They didn't want to hurt their (the kids) feelings, oh and by the way, please find out for us if the kids were 'coached' as to what to say.
Re read what Martha said above, you really need not go any further.
Tom Ford
They gave real ammunition to those on the opposing side of a tax increase. But it will all be good when we give TIF, TDD, CID, ADD, CIA, FBI, AAA, and who knows what to the developers to rebuild Crestwood Plaza/Court/District/Towne Square. I can't wait to shop in the new typewriter store, buy some VHS tapes (Beta too), and a Studebaker.
As far as the lifeguard situation, where the heck is David Hasselhoff?
Come on Tom. Don't be so hard on these aldermen. We need folks like those on the board who like to spend our money. After all, the city exists for its employees. You and I and our neighbors are merely here to serve as salary providers. The City of Crestwood was not founded for its residents - it was founded for its employees. The very existence of this community is not for the people who live in it. It is for the people who work in it and live elsewhere!
11:02 PM BLogger: "Come on Tom. Don't be so hard on these aldermen."
WHY? They ran for the job, they knew what they were doing (or so we thought,) and now when they blow 34K we don't have and keep a dog catcher we don't need I am supposed to be nice?
"LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET OUT OF THE WAY!" We certainly saw NO leadership, One guy will follow anyone, anywhere, and two are getting out of the way, so......
Tom Ford
It will be interesting to see if the new City Administrator has the testicular fortitude to make hard decisions...and even more intesting to see if the BOA and Mayor have the similar fortitude to listen to him
I am ever intrigued by this particular blog. Your headline says that it contains most of the news of Crestwood, yet rarely is there real news of Crestwood. Where was an entry about the new deli that opened in the old Imo's? And Savers opened yesterday, did you write about that? What this blog actually is is a place to vent your spleen and lament about how stupid everyone is. So I think it should be called "a list of all the things I hate" instead of "news". The list is so long no one could ever reach the end, and it's way more accuate about the contents.
8:06 AM Blogger: Well you have options right? Don't come here. don't read it if you do. or start your own!
Thank you.
Tom Ford
It's Tom's blog. And he is allowing us to write on it. If he wants to write about earthquakes and pepperoni pizza, it's his blog. He's been nice enough to host it for all of us to go back and forth. He signs his name on his posts and pays the fee every year. Like Tom said, don't read it or start your own. I for one, am grateful that Tom has given us this forum. Thanks Tom.
I absolutely agree. I merely suggested a change in the description of the blog.
The facts of life for us are pretty simple. Unless we are willing to "play ball" with these developers, they will continue to go elsewhere and we will remain on our current road of turning into Pagedale. We need to look at Kirkwood, Sunset Hills, even downtown to see what needs to be done. As long as Crestwood refuses to "play ball" and withhold TIF money, these businesses will continue to go elsewhere, and those new development areas will thrive while we continue to decline. This is a major downside of relying on one single source for a whole community's financial well-being.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
The BOA and Co. does lead by example. The problem is it's not an example a responsible person would seek to imitate.
12:51 February 22nd
We do not need to look to Kirkwood and Sunset Hills; we need to look to California, the birthplace of TIF in 1952, and the state where the consequences of TIF have played out.
Guess what? Last year the California legislature voted to abolish the agencies using TIF (essentially ending TIF for retail) because of the disastrous impact TIF had on California's other taxing agencies, especially the public schools.
Tell me why we should provide a TIF to a developer whose majority partner in the property (Angelo Gordon & Sons) has real estate investments worth $13 billion.
Martha Duchild
12:51 PM Blogger: I have and will continue to offer advertising space free of charge to ANY Crestwood business that wishes to advertise here.
Some have as you can see on the right hand side, the only thing they need to do is give me the URL to their website and their good to go.
Talk it up, get me the web sites and we will do it!
Tom Ford
1:07 PM Blogger: Why bother with someone who just dosen't get it, nor never will!
Tom Ford
2:25 PM Blogger: I like it, well done!
Tom Ford
The effects in California may well be as disasterous as stated here, but I still say the facts remain for here and for now: other communities are willing to ante up and we're not. So, that means they'll go where they can get the funds. We can stand on principle all we want, with out arms folded in unified defiance if we like, but the facts remain. As long as we refuse to offer what others offer, businesses will tend to trend toward other places and we will not have strayed even a step off our current path, which, as stated before, is on the road to becoming Pagedale. 718 leanlari
3:46 PM Blogger: I guess you know that Crestwood and Pagedale have a couple of things in common right?
Were both "land locked" with no interstate access close to anything we could develop, and the age of the residents is going up as well.
Now we come to the discretionary income of both communities and thanks to certain government influences beyond our collective control, there isn't much of it to spend in an "up scale shop, or bowling alley."
Crestwood has but two to three viable uses for that property and none of them are up scale retail stores.
Why give away the farm keys as Martha said to people who if they wanted to could build it on their own (build what?)
I don't see a rush to give up any tax dollars so far and I hope I never do as it is not needed!
Stop the Mr. Nice Guy, play hardball with the developer, make him do it and do it right through a flood of "code violations" (there are plenty there, trust me,) and THEN we will discuss what he plans to do with
the elephant in the living room!"
Tom Ford
That is a lovely stance, and frankly I agree with it. But the reality is that while other communities are waving TIF dollars around and we continue to refuse, the businesses will go elsewhere. Maybe it's wrong, maybe it's something to be all upset about and standing on principle about, but it doesn't change the fact that the other places will get the stores and we won't.
We can be sheep led to the slaughter.
We can be leaders prepared with due diligence. we can make intelligent decisions disregarding compassion and using logic.
Your choice.
I guess the elections will tell us if we are about to be slaughtered or will take a leadership position and demonstrate to others there is more than one way to prosper.i
Ultimately, each TIF is a negotiated process. Indeed, there are certain legal guidelines that must be upheld. But this development is a negotiation.
What the developer has offered so far is weak. A cowboy bar - but then that was cancelled. Now a grocery store, bowling alley, and movie theater are the latest proposals. Keep in mind that since 1985, Crestwood Plaza had a cinema. Before that, there was Crestwood Theater(?) on Watson Road.
Kirkwood, Sunset Hills, and Des Peres were given something substantial to work with.
As far as refusing to play ball, we played ball with Kohl's and the Grewe developments. Crestwood has given development subsidies before.
Centrum should to step up their game if they want Crestwood to use TIF.
And the City of Crestwood needs to negotiate wisely. The city could very well be slaughtered if it gives a development subsidy to a weak development.
No one has yet answered the question as to why Crestwood should front the money to Centrum when the majority partner in the property has over $13 billion in real estate investments.
Doing something just because everyone else is doing it has never been, and never will be, a sound justification for any decision.
My view has nothing to do with standing on principle and everything to do with making smart, sustainable business decisions. As I said in a letter to the local paper, TIF has become a cottage industry, with lobbyists donating to the campaigns of state representatives to ensure that TIF laws remain lopsided in favor of developers, consultants, and attorneys.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the research and figure out that, on balance, the short-term revenue gains TIF may offer to municipalities are more than surpassed by the long-term costs to the community at large, especially the school districts.
Martha Duchild
that is all true and will continue to be true. And they're still the ones offering the money, and we're still the ones not offering it. Sound business investments for the future? Agreed 100%. But they're still the ones offering the money and we're still the ones not offering it.
to the 10:06 comment
It sounds like you believe it to be a sound decision to subsidize a for profit business with your tax money and then approve a tax increase to replace the money.
Where do I get in line. I would like to redevelop my house but cannot take the risk without a subsidy. Are you willing to write me a check? I promise to provide monthly parties for the neighbors and maybe provide some cowboy music.
I am ready to pull the trigger. What say you?
I do not wish to do that at all. I am stating reality. We can all stand arm in arm, refusing to ante up TIF money, singular in our purpose and righteous in our determination. The facts don't change because we don't like it. I would very much rather not put up the money and have businesses come in on their own dime. But just a few miles away in other communities there are TIF dollars to be had, and the businesses do appear to be going elsewhere. Combine that with our impossible-to-deal-with board of aldermen, and we have a dying business community that isn't changing.
Martha,
You can make the case that the TIF statutes should be amended at the state level, but until/if that happens, taking a moral stand against TIF when Kirkwood, Sunset Hills, et al. have used that tool successfully seems unwise.
"Municipalities that granted large TIF projects tended to increase their share of
sales tax revenues, while cities that abstained or implemented smaller TIFs tended to see sales
tax revenues decline."
http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/dirr/TIFFinalRpt.pdf
From the same report:
"Crestwood is another example of a city with a declining tax share and a fairly small involvement
with TIF. The neighboring communities of Fenton, Sunset Hills, Kirkwood and Webster Groves
all invested more significantly in TIF, and each increased its share of taxes. It is also worth
noting that the neighboring communities of Oakland and Grantwood Village had much smaller
levels of retail activity throughout the study period, and saw their tax shares decline while
creating no TIFs."
Perhaps instead of using TIF to bring in a nice development, we should just use the existing mall to host a flea market to go along with Savers across the street. Then when Best Buy goes out of business, maybe if we are lucky a Big Lots will move in. And when the Office Depot/Office Max merger goes through, and they decide to keep the Office Depot store in Kirkwood, hopefully we can get a Dollar General to anchor that plaza.
9:55 AM Blogger: Forget trying to be to cute by a half, try actually thinking about what YOU would spend YOUR money on for a change!
No wonder the BOA has a problem facing reality, half their constituents are not grounded in it!
Tom Ford
To whom it may concern: Why the rush to the TIF boards? Why do YOU feel it's necessary to give up anything? What do YOU think Crestwood will ever get in thyat "land locked" space anyway?
Three things, and only three things,( and you all know it,) senior living apartments, combo apartments and small retail, major draw retailer (we have none.)
Tom Ford
Senior living apartments tend to be an economic drain on municipalities, and especially where they are run by not-for-profits. The opening of some of the senior centers in Affton was pointed to as the main reason for the Affton Fire Board's recent tax increase. If Crestwood goes that route, you are missing out on the sales taxes that come from retail, and then you have to hire more paramedics/firefighters and buy more ambulances for the increase in 911 calls. With an aging population, there is going to be a market for senior apartments, and Crestwood is as good a place as any to put them, but you don't put them in a prime commercial district. I don't get the defeatist, throw in the towel, Crestwood is on an inevitable decline because we aren't on an interstate attitude...there is no reason a new mixed use development couldn't succeed where the old mall is.
12:11 PM Blogger: Just for kicks, what "mixed use development" would YOU suggest?>
Tom Ford
What about my question? Can anyone answer why it's a good idea to subsidize a company whose partner in this property has over $13 billion in real estate assets?
Centrum has every reason to flip the property if they get a TIF. Centrum will not sign a contract with a non-transferable TIF clause. How does that benefit Crestwood or the Lindbergh School District?
It's hyperbolic (and inaccurate) to claim that Crestwood will turn into Pagedale if Centrum isn't given a TIF to develop the mall. As long as we have a top-notch public school district, we remain a desirable place to live. A community's attractiveness to potential homeowners is not defined by the availability of retail.
Martha Duchild
I don't know...maybe something along the lines of a movie theater, restaurants, bars, and a high-end grocery store? :)
In all seriousness, I wouldn't mind seeing a First Watch go in there, as Crestwood doesn't really have a sit-down breakfast spot. It would also be good to see some kind of housing in the second phase of the project--high end condos, villas, or town homes maybe?
In that very same report from the East West Gateway Coordinating Council - http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/library/dirr/TIFFinalRpt.pdf - "This research documents that the use of these tax incentives has been ineffective both as a way to increase regional sales tax revenue or to produce a significant increase in
quality jobs. It also clearly has not helped municipalities avoid fiscal stress or had a general beneficial economic impact on the region."
The Kohl's, Sam's, and the Grewe properties were developed/remodeled with these subsidies. Crestwood Plaza would be much larger project.
Crestwood has been careful with its use of subsidies (to a point), but large-scale projects such as those in Sunset Hills, Kirkwood, or Fenton have not presented themselves ... until now.
Centrum has only presented a brief yet not very exciting glimpse of what it plans to do.
"What about my question? Can anyone answer why it's a good idea to subsidize a company whose partner in this property has over $13 billion in real estate assets?"
No one necessarily said it was a good idea. What I said was the reality is that the TIF money is out there, and the biggest developments will go where that money is. That they have $13 billion in assests is a moot point. Big developments are trending to where the money is, and if we don't have it, we will be left in the dust, a process which has already begun.Stand in defense of that position all you like, then look around next time you're out and about. Notice where the really nice developments with huge numbers of cars in the lots are. They used to be here. Now they're not.
"As long as we have a top-notch public school district, we remain a desirable place to live. A community's attractiveness to potential homeowners is not defined by the availability of retail."
Wholeheartedly agree with the first sentence. The second sentence is not entirely accurate though--while most people will not choose a home solely based on retail availability, real estate agents and appraisers routinely use access to nearby shopping/dining as one factor in pricing (and marketing) homes, and I think people do look at the stores in an area as one factor of many when choosing where to live.
As for why to subsidize the project (out of the future revenue stream)? Because the costs of knocking down an outdated structure like Crestwood mall are enormous, and the odds of anyone willing to do that without assistance are minimal.
"the use of these tax incentives has been ineffective both as a way to increase regional sales tax revenue"
That is probably true, but it begs the question--should Crestwood be a martyr for the good of the region? The summary of the report is basically that TIF is good for the finances of the enacting city, but bad for the region. Should Crestwood help itself at the expense of its neighbors?
If the mall property is developed and becomes a destination, the St. Louis area will not see a net increase in sales taxes. What will happen is that Crestwood will get a bigger "slice of the pie" of sales taxes from its own citizens and the citizens of Kirkwood, Sunset Hills, Webster Groves, unincorporated St. Louis County, and Fenton.
Most of those areas have already used TIF to create retail developments that have adversely affected Crestwood. Crestwood is a point of sale city, and is dependent on sales taxes. Right or wrong for the region, using TIF here will no doubt benefit Crestwood.
So you think what Centrum has presented so far is worthy of a TIF?
"That they have $13 billion in assests is a moot point."
It might be a moot point to you, but not to me.
"The second sentence is not entirely accurate though--while most people will not choose a home solely based on retail availability, real estate agents and appraisers routinely use access to nearby shopping/dining as one factor in pricing (and marketing) homes, and I think people do look at the stores in an area as one factor of many when choosing where to live."
I'm not sure what you are saying is entirely accurate either. Having worked in residential real estate and having worked with appraisers, a multitude of factors play into value and desirability of homes - not just nearby retail. In some cases, nearby retail and or commercial may hurt value. Appraisals and pricing are often made in a case by case basis.
We're most certainly not "left in the dust." Small businesses are still coming to Crestwood without the use of TIF. They may not be businesses you like, but they came to Crestwood because they think they can turn a profit here.
Centrum is the wrong developer with the wrong plan at the wrong cost. It doesn't matter what kind of subsidies you offer - if the plan is ill-conceived (or in this case barely fleshed out) and the developer has a track record of being unable to deliver on its promises, then it's a bad idea to move forward. Centrum has already acknowledged that they may flip the property. Why would the city commit to a developer who is unwilling to make a commitment to the city?
Martha Duchild
well, true as that may be, what is the city prepared to do about the vacant mall falling into a dangerous state of disrepair? I don't want to TIF either. What I want is for that property to either be filled and thriving again or razed and redeveloped. If a TIF will get that accomplished, then I would be open to it. Just yelling NO because you can isn't solving the problem. I state again: stand on principle all you like, but the property is rotting away, becoming more of a hazard each year it sits neglected and unused. Your points are correct. But how does that get that mall redeveloped? Do you have a potential new buyer in mind? If so, who? Has this buyer been selected to meet your specifications? Bottom line is, who's going to develop the mall? What's going to happen to that property while Crestwood stands on principle?
Martha,
I don't get the hostility toward Centrum. I thought their plans were reasonably detailed, and their comments were thoughtful at the board meeting:
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/s-admin/plugins/events/uploads/Board%20of%20Aldermen/11-08-12%20Work%20Session%20Re%20Crestwood%20Court%20Redevelop.pdf
I like their unique plan a lot more than a Grewe, big-box style development, which the St. Louis area is over-saturated with.
As for a history of not keeping promises, I think they (like most other developers) had a rough last couple of years with the economy. The fact that they are still around when many others folded is a testament to them. As for them flipping the property, my recollection was that was their plan if the city didn't approve the TIF.
To 3:34 comment
Who subsidizes you when a desire to improve your property is developed? You certainly do not receive my tax dollar.
You certainly are not granted the right to escape a property value increase for improvements on your property. In fact your property taxes increase because you added value. The developer you so want to support escapes that event.
You are not allowed to tax others for access to your property to purchase the merchandise and/or services offered.
Do you enjoy paying 1% or more direct to Grewe's pocket every time you visit Applebee's, Monkey Joes's, Ace Hardware, Shop & Save,etc.?
The fact that we even consider redistribution of tax payers wealth to profitable business to lower risk or any other compassionate reason is revolting.
Revolt. Oh!! That's why the revolution of 1776 occurred.
3:51 PM, February 23, 2013
Are you affiliated with Centrum?
@ 4:00 p.m.
That is moral opposition to the use of TIF, which is somewhat justified. Call your state rep and state senator if you want the law changed. As a practical matter, with the current state of the law, TIF is good for Crestwood. If you don't want to pay an extra 1%, don't go to any of the businesses you listed, don't shop at Culver's or Sams either (there is a TDD there), etc.
"The developer you so want to support escapes that event."
It's not like they don't pay property taxes into perpetuity. Kohl's enjoyed lower property taxes for the past 10 years, but will be paying market rates going forward now that the TIF bonds are retired. Was the Kohl's development a bad idea? That is one of the few businesses that actually draws people from outside Crestwood to the area.
Also, there is a big difference to using TIF to restore a blighted area like the mall (with total demolition costs included), and giving a CID to a developer who is too cheap to cover the ongoing maintenance costs at Crestwood Square. You have no argument from me that the CID granted there was ill-advised.
Anonymous said...
3:51 PM, February 23, 2013
Are you affiliated with Centrum?
4:12 PM, February 23, 2013
Ha! No, I don't have that kind of money :)
4:00 pm poster:
No one subsidises me. So I will make the point yet again: If we refuse to ante up the TIF money, and other communities will put the money up, businesses will go there. Maybe it's upsetting, maybe it's morally wrong, whatever. But all that changes nothing. They are offering the money, we are not. Meanwhile, the mall sits, decaying, empty, an eyesore. Whine an belly ache about "redistribution" all you like. But it changes nothing. The mall isn't getting redeveloped. What's your solution? What magic solution do you have that doesn't involve spouting off about redistribution and all that, since that doesn't really contribute.
Zero sales tax dollars have entered the coiffures of the city for the last ten years. Those dollars are gone never to be recovered. Essentially we gave away ten years of sales tax dollars while allowing Kohls to take business from Crestwood Court. I would classify that as a loss never to be retrieved.
"Zero sales tax dollars have entered the coiffures [sic] of the city for the last ten years. Those dollars are gone never to be recovered. Essentially we gave away ten years of sales tax dollars while allowing Kohls to take business from Crestwood Court. I would classify that as a loss never to be retrieved."
That is incorrect, and you should brush up on how TIF works. In a TIF district, tax receipts for school districts, fire districts and other taxing entities are frozen at existing levels for the length of the TIF — up to 23 years. As land within the TIF district increases in value, the incremental tax revenue — 100 percent of property taxes and 50 percent of sales and utility taxes — is used to retire the TIF obligation. Crestwood got 50% of the sales taxes from Kohl's the last 10 years, and will get all of them going forward. Also, were the TIF not approved, Kohl's likely would have found another municipality more than willing to play ball, given the popularity of their stores.
It's not our responsibility to come up with a "solution." Whoever bought the property is responsibile for that. Our responsibility is to ensure that we are getting a sustainable product at the least financial risk to the city and school district.
I have no hositility towards Centrum. I was not at all impressed with their idea or with their financing request: Grant us the TIF amount for Phases 1 AND 2, for which we have no confirmed tenants, and we promise to build Phase 1 but we have no idea what we're going to do with Phase 2. Their market research was incomplete, their target market was unrealistic, and they had no firm answers regarding their plans for the outlying properties.
As for the mall property sinking into disrepair, that is an unfounded fear. The city has commercial codes which exist in part to prevent the conditions which contribute to blight. It's the city's job to enforce these codes and hold the property owner accountable.
Is there any reason why Centrum cannot get their own loans and have them guaranteed by Angelo Gordon & Sons?
Martha Duchild
Perhaps you should examine Kohl's a little closer. You obviously are not aware that 100% of the sales tax revenue was used to retire the bonds.
Do the math. Crestwood received zero revenue from this entity.
That fact alone escapes everyone. Check it out for yourself.
Then tell me it's a moral decision. I beg to differ. It is a business decision. A poor one for the taxpayers but an excellent one for the business community. The government obligates me to give the business profit. No thanks.
A side note. I do not shop at Kohls, Applebee's, etc.
Martha,
The mall property, even if kept up to code by Centrum and kept free from disrepair, still suffers from obsolescence.
There is not much of a financial risk for the city in proceeding with Centrum's proposal. There is certainly more risk on Lindbergh's side. One potential option that bears looking into is some kind of agreement where Crestwood shares some of the revenue it receives from the project with Lindbergh for the duration of the TIF, as a kind of shared risks/shared rewards. St. Peters and the Fort Zumwalt district entered into an agreement along those lines when a TIF was enacted there a few years ago (would have to look up details).
I think your questions regarding Phase 2 are completely legitimate, and to me, that is the biggest thing that Centrum needs to work on--what their your total plan for the site, including Phase 2? I understand that in terms of construction, it makes sense to do a total demolition for the whole site, and then put in all of the infrastructure (including Phase 2), but I think they do need more of a vision for the design of Phase 2.
For the outlying properties, my recollection of their plan was to use TIF money to pay for their relocation. I think everyone involved would want to keep Firestone and City Music in Crestwood, and Lord knows there is plenty of empty spaces that either could fill.
@ 6:31 p.m.
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/docs/agendas_minutes/boa/2004_11_09/or%2011092004.pdf
Only a portion of Crestwood's sales tax from Kohl's went to pay down the TIF early.
Does anyone know if Centrum itself is getting involved in any of the races? Does anyone know if Centrum has talked to or encouraged any of the candidates?
To 6:53 comment
Extracted from the minutes.
"A portion of the City’s sales tax revenues generated from Kohl’s was pledged to accelerate the payment of the TIF."
The portion was not admitted. Check the history. You will find the cities 50% was committed to the TIF. History demonstrated Greer did not tell the whole story as witnessed by the expenditure of money we did not have for a new city hall. But I digress. Sorry.
"Is there any reason why Centrum cannot get their own loans and have them guaranteed by Angelo Gordon & Sons?"
None that I can think of. Is there any reason to believe they are going to play ball without TIF money? Not so far.
-7:02 Not sure. I've read some of the candidates positions. It will be interesting to see campaign finance reports and to research personal / business connections.
@ 7:27
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/docs/agendas_minutes/boa/2006_05_23/memo%20re%20underwriter%20selection%20and%20bond%20issuance%20crestwood%20point.pdf
I think it's roughly 50% of the city's 50% portion was put toward paying off the TIF early.
TO ALL: Excellent, this is the way it's supposed to work, no name calling, no insults, just a good deal of back and forth!
Know what, that is where the ideas come from, and when they do come Centrum will hear about it.
I am going to ask the candidates what their position is on TIF, TDD, CID, and WHY, so stay tuned for that very soon.
Tom Ford
To clarify a point someone made regarding Centrum still being in business despite the real estate crisis: Centrum knows the game, which is why for each of their developments they create LLC's. It's the LLC's that go bankrupt (and there are plenty of them) while Centrum itself remains protected. Without the protection of the LLC's, Centrum would have gone bankrupt many times over by now.
Also for clarification, 50% of the revenues from the Kohl's TDD were used to pay off the TIF.
There is indeed a huge risk in the city going forward with Centrum: their proposed plan (what little of it there is) could easily fail, but the TIF amount granted (unless it is non-transferable) would remain with the property. There is also the risk associated with defaulting on the TIF bonds. The school district cannot risk the amount of TIF it would take to satisfy Centrum.
Remember, there was no estimate given on the acquisition costs for the outlying properties, nor was there an estimate given for the asbestos remediation that needs to be done at Dillard's - both of which are high dollar items.
If Centrum bought the mall property with the assumption that they would receive tax incentives to help develop it, they made a strategic mistake. It's not the city's responsibility to bail them out.
Martha Duchild
Who says we "have to play ball" with these developers?
Guess what - they own it. True, Crestwood is not getting tax revenue from it, but they are losing money on it too. It's their investment. If we do nothing and they do nothing, they take a loss.
I'm surprised the one blogger is so supportive of Centrum. I've talked to two of the aldermen who supported the TIF and voted accordingly. EVEN THEY were not enthused with Centrum's plans!
By the way, I'm sorry to see that Toby Keith won't be locating his bar in Crestwood. Here is one review - "One star is all I can give this place. The food was average at best, the atmosphere sucks, its way too loud, the service was horrible, very very slow. Our waitress seemed confused, and did not come around much. She seemed irritated that I was asking questions and just simply rushed me to get my order."
I can recall when Centrum first presented their plan, it was met with underwhelming enthusiasm. I think it was a blogger that said the plan looked like something put together on the plane ride here.
2:58 PM Blogger: Anonymous said...
"Who says we "have to play ball" with these developers?"
BINGO, that's the entire thing (and believe me they know it.)
All the Centrum people want is the 17 Million they foolishly sunk into buying the property. The rest will be to flatten it and move it to an even more foolish developer.
Centrum has NO ONE on even so much as a prospectus lease much less a rental agreement, so who are they kidding?
Play ball? Why yes we do need to play ball, hard ball that is! Go for the inspection next week, write some code violations, do a "life safety check," and get the Chicago boy's off their collective assets!
Remember folks, were not taking warm showers with these people so they really don't have to like us, now do they.
Tom Ford
If you really want to play hardball Tom, Crestwood should threaten to use eminent domain to take the whole property from Centrum, and sell it to another developer.
6;16 PM Blogger: Not a big fan of taking someone else's property (it's that old police thingy.)
However I would go right up to the ragged edge with things such as repair time limits, code violations, life safty violations, with heavy fines for not meeting the date!
Once you "threaten" to take the property, then what? If you do toss out that threat, thou had best go through with it, or......
Centrum is paying for the privilege of having that drain on the budget more than we are (it would take at least 4-5 years if they broke ground tomorrow for us to see anything.)
It's the old saying, "what are you prepared to do?" I do believe however that we need an excellent City attorney in place before the Emerson is struck.
Tom Ford
BOA comes to their collective senses, were not going to drop the 34K extra for the same service!
Call your Alderman, thank them (except for Duncan and Miguel,) they still wanted to do it.
Pathetic!!!
Tom Ford
I believe you're mistaken about Miguel. He was actually the one to first speak up and make a motion to reconsider his previous "No" vote. He was followed by Foote and Tennessen on reconsideration. But, yes Duncan did not change her position.
9:23 AM Blogger: Right you are, he did withdraw his original vote and motion.
I spoke with him this morning and found out I was indeed misinformed. I regret the error.
Tom Ford
Is that the same board that gave the old City Administrator $80,000.00..to 'go away' in silence?..What a disgrace.
I buy a lot of expensive high technology gear for my company, and sometimes the cheapest is just not the MOST COST EFFECTIVE.
For that little difference in cost, I can see why MAYBE it was worth going with the higher bid. Maybe better service, cost savings in the long run, etc.
Of course, I don't expect you non-business types to get that!
Besides, the REAL money being spent here in Crestwood is tax subsidies for developers and huge retirement costs for dozens of police and fire people we probably don't need and all those expensive high-priced administrators who stay one year and make hundreds of thousands.
The dog catcher? I say they stay. I love animals, and think we're WAY ahead of the pack in that area!
But more police? Wha', so they can setup more radar traps? I actually think radar traps in Crestwood are FUNNY because the average old 85-year-old retiree in Crestwood drives about 20MPH if that. Don't have to go fast when you got all day to get there! Just in the last two weeks I saw an old lady in Cadillacs (two of them!) one slowly and carefully pulled in front of oncoming traffic while making a left, and almost caused an accident, the other hit the back of the car in front when they stopped at the Yield. If we'd police that, then MAYBE I'd be for more police. But speed traps and shoplifting? Lay some off, save GOBS of cash.
Read my lips: NO NEW TAXES. No tax increase for Crestwood EVER for ANY reason. If they can't afford it, leave it - just like working folks are doing day after day because the RICH are stealing us blind with their welfare.
But go on, keep attacking the POOR people, like it's their fault! Smart people know its the RICH and EXPENSIVE stuff that is draining our taxpayer pocketbooks.
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