Four Alderman meet in private to discuss "moving the mall plans ahead!"
Please see the excellent editorial by Mr. Mike Anthony of the Call Newspaper.
http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-Opinions-i-2013-06-12-267346.112112-Aldermen-meet-in-private-to-move-mall-plans-ahead.html
I also have those emails (all 48 of them) that were sent back and forth between the Alderman and the mayor as well as each other (FOIA form, remember,) and I can tell you that there is no possible way that they did not know the meeting was cancelled!
(more to come when I arrive back home from MY Breakfast Meeting (legitimate one!)
Well I have returned and I would like to add the following thoughts to this post.
!. Since when is it ever OK for four Aldermen to sit it "private" and discuss the Cities business, no matter what?
2. Why wouldn't these four public servant's want to wait till `another work session was called? What could possibly be the rush?
3. Are they happy about the fact that just when the residents ware ready to once again believe in the Board, they cast this "shadow" on the proceedings?
Perhaps we should invite the Missouri ethics commission to look into this and give us a reading as to how they feel about discussions off site, and out of the public eye.
Tom Ford
NO. 2011
posted by Crestwood Independent at 05:56
174 Comments:
All points of interest Mr Ford but unfortunately there are no violations here and suprisingly enough, the Missouri Ethics Commission doesn't investigate meetings that never occurred. You see the Charter says it takes a quorum of 5 to have a meeting and since as you reported, there were only 4, there was no meeting. Now will there be anything else? Nice try.
12:50 PM Blogger: Are we to assume that because it won't be investigated that your OK with it?
Does the "means justify the end" as Saul Alinsky is fond of saying?
Tom Ford
Oh...there might be something else. Who knows? And who knew we had auxillary city halls?
3:41 PM Blogger: "And who knew we had auxiliary city halls?"
Well at least four people did, didn't they. Oh, and ONE of them said in an email that "moving the mall plans forward." was a topic for discussion, so.....
(File a FOIA form for their EMAILS, you will be amazed!)
I guess they could have also discussed hair styles as well, but hey, who knows?
Tom Ford
*Yawn*
Doesn't sound like there was a violation, but they were pretty close to the line. Even if there was a technical violation, I am far more bothered about the 4 obstructionist aldermen who seem hell-bent on preventing the investment of 100 million of private money into Crestwood, than the 4 who are tired of watching Crestwood continuously fall behind its peers and want to do something about it.
Side note--what led to the Finance Officer following the City Attorney and the Public Works director out the door?
If these 4 aldermen want to move ahead with the mall development and are looking for ideas, they should refer to Article 10 of the Charter.
9;21 PM Blogger: My dear "Yawn," you really should wake up to the fact that there was a violation! Get their emails, read all 48 pages of them as I have, and you may well change your mind.
However the final say so will rest outside of Crestwood with those who are charged with investigating such things, not you or I, so let's just sit back and see who is right here, shall we?
There is no one preventing private money from flowing into Crestwood besides Centrum. Centrum wants to hold us up for 34 MILLION in TIF funding, and they have refused to re submit a new plan, so who is holding whom up?
The four of whom you speak are acting responsibly with the 34 MILLION in TIF funds, not obstructing anything at all, and I do believe that if you would just wake up, you too would see it.
Face it, your just mad because your side lost, and you feel like a kid who has just had all the red licked off his candy.Time will tell as this is not going away soon (nor should it.)
Now as to why the Finance director left, well as it is a personnel matter it's a secret we may never know unless you talk to the finance director, so.
Tom Ford
someone disagreed with you. Why haven't you deleted the post?
7:24
You are a bitter person.
If these four aldermen want to move the mall project forward they should work on their meeting attendance. They would have been a majority with the mayor's assistance had two of them not skipped the meeting at which the last PGAV vote was held.
The mayor wasn't going to break the tie had they shown up at the meeting. He was clear about that.
Is there a way that this whole plan can just be put to a city wide vote in the fall?
8:56 AM Blogger: There is if you want to spend at least $ 10 K that we don' have to do it.
Tom ford
We had 80 k that we gave to the old city administrator...I m sure we could find another 10 k...for the will of the people..Tom,,,
The finance director as fired. That's a fact.
9:51 PM Blogger: More wasted funding? WHY?
Tom Ford
Fired 11.34? ...last couple of times that has happened it has cost us time and money and secret agreements...made behind closed doors. Silence ain't cheap...you know..
I am assuming the Missouri Attorney General is aware of this apparent violation of the Sunshine law and will investigate for any wrongdoing?
@11:34
Hopefully the books are accurate...the numbers he was showing to the board weren't very rosy to begin with...if the real picture is actually worse, the Ways and Means Committee will have some hard decisions to make this fall.
If only there was a large development that would come to Crestwood and inject some sales taxes into the city coffers...
Am I to understand that the members of the boa who violated the Sunshine Law fell justified in doing so as they wanted to find a compromise concerning the redevelopment of the Mall?
That makes no sense, as it is not the Boa who makes the purposal but the developer. What compromise has the developer made? Do the majority of Crestwood citizens believe the current purposal is the only one that will work?
Doesn't it seem that if compromise is what the developer wants, they would present more than just one purposal.
I believe Centrum has no desire to compromise and it has to be their way or the highway.
"...I am far more bothered about the 4 obstructionist aldermen who seem hell-bent on preventing the investment of 100 million of private money into Crestwood, than the 4 who are tired of watching Crestwood continuously fall behind its peers and want to do something about it."
You conveniently left out the part of 30 + million in Tax Increment Financing. And from where does that money come from? Hmmm?
The bottom line here is that TIF money is everywhere. It worked out well with Kohl's. it is helping to develop Sunset Hills, Kirkwood, downtown, etc. Our flat refusal to entertain use of TIF money means that they are getting wonderful new developments that bring fresh, vital new business, and we get thrift and second hand stores. THAT is our reality now, and until we accept that, it will not change, The new businesses will always go elsewhere when we refuse to "play ball". Cry and yell about TIF money all you like, but the fact is that unless we participate, we will continue to be left behind, with only our moral indignation and second hand stores to comfort us.
"The bottom line here is that TIF money is everywhere." And you are ok spending it on a 2nd class proposal in Crestwood, instead of negotiating for the best we can have?
What is it with some of you people, are you on the payroll of a contractor supply company, or cement company and you are looking at the development not for the long term economic health improvement of Crestwood, but your own short term sales commission from your company? Or on the payroll of Centrum?
TIF money is a lot of places. But places like Kirkwood, Sunset Hills, and Fenton who've used TIF have stellar developments.
What are we GETTING with this? An unnamed grocery store? A bowling alley? Will the developer provide any commitments from any prospective tenants? Will these prospective tenants affect current businesses in Crestwood? What are the developer's long-term intentions with the property?
Let's face it, he let it sit for five years. Other developments have occurred in that time - a lot - so don't blame it on the economy.
I think that if the plan was better - more definitive, more exciting, you might see some of these aldermen more willing to use these financing tools.
TIF, TDD, and CID have been used in Crestwood before. I think this whole issue is a lot more than the use of or the reluctance to use these tools.
Everyone is dumping on the Board. Where is the questioning the developer? Why don't these same folks ask some hard questions from the developer?
well, my point is now made. We will continue to refuse to deal with the owners, and nothing will happen. It will either sit vacant and decaying, or it will be razed and we will have a beautiful vacant lot. The board isn't negotiating for the best we can have, they are saying no, voting no. That is not negotiating, that is saying no.
So the board should say yes to this?
Let me ask, which are you looking forward to the most? The grocery store or bowling alley? If you can't wait, we already have 3 grocery stores and a bowling alley already.
The developer claimed that they proposed the plan they did because those are the tenants that were interested in the space. If the plan is more of a "B" or a "C" plan than an "A" plan, that probably says more about the desirability of Crestwood than anything else. I think the plan as proposed is better than the "F" of the empty mall. The 30+ million in tax assistance comes out of the pockets of those who patronize the development, and increased property values that never come into play unless the development happens.
To put it another way, Crestwood is a like a girl that thinks she's a 10 (and acts like it), when she's actually about a 5 or a 6. And she's telling a nice guy that's a 7 that she's too good for him. And then she'll be left with her cats and settle for a guy that's a 3 and hits her. I hope I'm wrong.
@8:21
Dinner and a movie a block from my house sounds good. Maybe a drink at the piano bar afterward. I'm getting bored walking through an empty mall listening to soft rock on the speakers.
8:22 poster, that is what I've been saying. We will be left with our moral outrage and LOTS of thrift shops.
"We will continue to refuse to deal with the owners, and nothing will happen"
Where and how is the owner dealing with us? 50% of the BOA is opposed to their proposal, have they come up with a new one? Who is not budging.
Saying "no" is a part of negotiation.
Look I agree with the pro-developer group. What "outside of the box" thinking! A grocery store and bowling alley! Woo Hoo! That will draw thousands into Crestwood! Well my word! How many towns in Missouri have a grocery store and a bowling alley! Just think, we'll have 4 grocery stores and 2, count them, 2 bowling alleys! Well, heck, we'll be pulling in folks from neighboring states with those kind of attractions! I can't think of a single reason to be opposed to this plan!
Deadwood Mall....the saga continues..will the last person out please turn off the lights.....?
or, vacant lot covering acres and acres in Crestwood. Generating millions in tax dollars, plus beautiful to the eye. I wonder how many second hand and thrift stores would fit into that area......?
Grocery stores? Bowling Alleys? So you are sure 11:38 PM 6/14 - that's all we would attract. Who are you some kind of mystic who can predict things. Sarcasm is all I can see from you. So - you say you are pro-development but it has to consist of what you want to see Is that it! So since you and others feel so negative about going forward - let's just not do anything! Wow! Yeah -let Crestwood rot and when we get to the last rung on the ladder - let the County take us over. Guess what - if that happens, you will be the first one to grip about it. We are cutting this group down before it even gets started. You are saying, if I can't have it my way, to heck with it. So you want - what - ? First class or nothing hhuh! Well get out your coloring book and crayons and get real! We are not a big city composed of people with big pockets! But nobody seems to care if this mall finally caves in or burns down! Someday if we keep going like this, we might even get some more HUD Housing where the Mall stands - won't that be nice. That will really do wonders for our economy. Macy's left - and you cannot tell me it was because they were afraid of competition from Kohl's. When has Macy's every been afraid of competition. That's just not true. So be careful what you feel you want to see at the Mall - right now we are shooting ourselves in the foot and playing a waiting game. For what? Further, Mr. Ford, I am not going to argue about what I have said which I know you love to do. I know you would love to see everyone agree with you all the time - but I am afraid this time, I am in favor of TIF monies because we are (not in desperation) but because it is there and it is fair! You think every developer in the country has money coming from the sky to give us big names and big stores and everything????? Well they are not. TIF monies are an avenue developers can use to "develop". Further, there are millions of people who would love to have a job and who would love to live in Crestwood. We are not a city of millionaires - we are just a very good city with our own fire and police and good parks, and good employees. Other cities have done TIF's and so far they have not been considered in our vocabulary books as a bad word. Let's look at the positives for heaven sakes. Sarcasm gets us nowhere and I don't like being considered the city of nowhere!!!
Dear Sam,
Are you saying that this is the best proposal Crestwood can get for a $34,000,000 TIF
Sam! Sam! Sam! Sam! Sam! Why so upset? I was merely cheering on this great development - this innovative plan that will hopefully draw lots of people and money to Crestwood. Read the articles - it was the developer that came up with the grocery store and bowling alley, not I. I know you will correct me if I am wrong.
Tell me Sam - I'll let you take the floor since I seem to upset you.
1. Name the tenants the developer has promised - not the type of store but the brand.
2. Can you tell me if the developer has any conditional leases signed? Letters of intent? A note on a post-it?
3. Can you tell me if the developer plans to hold on to the property after the TIF is granted?
4. Can you tell me if the developer has done a cost/benefit analysis of his proposal?
5. Can you tell me if his proposed tenants will hurt or challenge any existing businesses in Crestwood?
Sam, a man of your great intelligence will surely be able to provide these answers.
What I am saying is under the circumstances with the powers that be - it seems nobody on the board gives a tinker's darn and will not come together unified. Why! Because it is always the same - if he or she vote for a TIF they will loose constituents; so the board sits on the dais and just keeps the seat warm - this way they can collect their "six pence" or whatever and they can't be criticized.
I have seen this city be positive, determined and dedicated for over 40 years - not anymore! Something is very wrong. And I smell a rat and I am seeing so much back stabbing going on, paranoia, and a new city administrator who only does what the city clerk tells him to do - it sinks! Some employees got up and spoke at a board of aldermen meeting awhile back - and spoke about the way they were treated, and the board sat there like a bunch of dummies and never asked one question and said Nadda - including the mayor. Thus far I am not impressed with Mr. C.A. He does what he is told period! As far as this proposal, it may not be the best proposal but if everybody would work together instead of bashing each other, never getting anything done - we could come up with something better - but right now nobody really cares enough as far as can see - to stand up, be counted and say we want our city back. Therefore, we are the city going nowhere! And if this is what will become of Crestwood -it's a dirty, rotten shame that the Crestwood Mall will go down in ashes sooner than later.
7:52 PM Don't play that game with me sir or madame. I am not paid to give those answers - but maybe you should!!!!! Heck, the board can't even move this project along one iota to start the ball rolling but you feel the developer should be able to answer all your questions. The doggone board can't even agree on a TIF so why should any developer feel compelled to give answers to your laundry list. Our board is so wishy washy they can't even get the board to agree on a TIF. And how wonderful that the mayor broke the tie. Hooray! Another step backward. Boy that's what I call real smart progress - now we are cooking with gas - NOT! It's not that I don't think you ask good questions, I just think you are of the opinion that we are sitting in the cat/bird seat just because we have land to be developed. So because of that you obviously want answers from the developer when the mayor and board haven't budged an inch. You think that because we have the land, that we hold all the cards. Well we don't. Let the whole mall become a haven for vagrants; let it be torn down - and if it does - you can be blamed in the history books - because if something isn't done soon - we will be the city going nowhere. You don't like my opinion - well I don't like yours either!
Tom, & Sam
I agree with some of the points both of you make but we are not accomplishing anything by dividing our community into 2 groups and slugging it out. We have been faced with the abandoned BP at Watson & Sappington for longer than the mall and nothing has been done there. How can we expect to redevelop a mall when we can't even address on little service station. We need the citizens to call a town hall meeting and come up with a direction we want our Mayor and Aldermen to pursue. Then maybe we will see some action.
Tom,
Don't you believe with all the salary reductions going on at city hall that everyone should participatein thee cuts? It is true that every position being replaced is being filled at a lower salary than that position previously earned. Why aren't the City Administrator, City Clerk and BOA and Mayor participating in these cuts? I realize the BOA and Mayor would have to make it a ballot issue but they could put a charter Amendment on the next ballot that says"Should the BOA have the ability to recind their and the Mayors monthly compensation as needed to help balance the budget"? Afterall, we have many citizens that serve on city boards with no compensation. So why not everyone participate in the cutbacks.
Sam, you are so predictable. I figured you would dodge the questions.
Sam, did you change your name? It's slight variation of your real name, isn't it?
I agree with 8:07, and 7:54 - but nobody seems to want to take the ball and run with it at least with this mayor and board. That's my take on this subject.
Further, addressing 9:56 and 9:58 "Good Morning". I have been Sam since I was born, and is what is on my birth certificate; and I can ask you the same question about your name, Anonymous!! Seems you are totally transparent even though you think you're not. Dodging questions and being predictable is your forte not mine.
I have said what I felt I needed to say. You, however, only seem to want to show everyone that you like to play name games.
Too bad you feel you can outsmart me - I thought this was just a forum for comments.
itskslongeTook longer than I thought it would, but we have posters finally blaming the C/A for the Cities current problems.
Never mind the fact that you have 4 rouge BOA members who have thumbed their nose at the State Sunshine Law, never mind the fact that you have small group of loud citizens who are willing to settle for 2nd best for a mere $34 million TIF, never mind that it's the developers job to produce a proposal that 5 out of 8 Alderman can agree to, lets bring up the C/A's personnel actions.
Sounds like election 2014 is getting a head start.
The CA is being led by his nose and taking the easy road in doing his job and not doing his homework! He should be researching how we got from a solid city to where we are now. Instead, he is letting someone else dictate his actions. Those who do not know the mistakes made by others may end up repeating them.
When is the next BOA meeting? Is it going to be held at Starbuck's?
The C/A is a city administrator - NOT an employee advocate. His job is not to make a sweet life for the employees of the city. His job is to administer the function of the city.
11:04 AM, June 16, 2013
Support your claims with proof or stop your whining. Or is this start of the 2014 mayors race?
Hey troops! Did you see the front page of the Post today? Still think we should just jump at the first ( and only) proposal?
Tom Ford
Why yes Tom I did! Interesting developments at Northwest Plaza.
7:33 PM Blogger: Well we should ALL be very aware that our very own Courts are just as full of asbestos (if not more so) than that spot!
Now, do anyone (but the Centrum cheer leaders) really think that 34 ,million is going to do anything more than pay back Centrum, and leave us with a giant parking lot? I don't.
Tom Ford
@6:57
I know you always love a good conspiracy theory, but pray tell how Centrum would recoup 34 million if they just leveled the mall and didn't build anything?
12 million give or take is from TDD/CID, which requires sales taxes to be coming in.
The 26 million TIF payback would come out of available TIF revenues as property taxes were re-evaluated each year. The developer bears the up front cost of construction. If Centrum just leveled the mall and walked away, they would receive $0.00 of public money.
Try again.
8:02 AM, June 17, 2013
That is not what was said, get the recording from the BOA meetings when Centrum was asked if the $34 million in TIF included the amount they paid ($17 million) for the property.
The truth is out there, you just have to look for it.
You try again.
6:57 AM Blogger: Take off the Centrum cheer leader suit and Try a google shot on Centrum in Florida, Illinois, and elsewhere. Why not see for yourself what they have "walked away from" before you act so cock sure that we can trust them to do the right thing here!
Remember the $44 Million in Fenton to save Chrysler? It didn't work, did it, so what makes you so sure that Crestwood is Centrum salvation:?
It's a bad business plan (grocery, bowling ally and?), and a worse plan for Crestwood, so let's let them sell out to others, or keep paying the $300,000.00 per year in real estate taxes, their choice.
Tom Ford
9:57 AM Blogger: Thank you but this is a dyed in the wool Centrum supporter who wouldn't care if they said the sky was yellow.
They like to give up the farm keys to the first "music man" that gets off the train, so...........
Tom Ford
Now, let's talk about what we should be doing about the four Alderman that flaunted the trust we placed in them by meeting outside the public eye.
They broke the faith, plain and simple, and I think they owe ALL of us a public apology, on the record for their ill advised actions!
Tom Ford
Tom Ford
Tom,
First step to regain the trust of the voters would be for the Centrum Four to admit they violated the Sunshine Law. With no exception(s).
Second step would be for the Centrum Four to get Centrum to offer another proposal, as the current one does not have BOA majority support.
Third step if needed would be for the voters to recall those of the Centrum Four who refuse to do step one, listed above.
They don't have to admit they violated the Sunshine Law ..1.09.. The Missouri Attorney General Is already trying to determine that for them...I'm sure.
@9:57-I don't think anyone said land acquisition costs weren't reimbursable--the point made was that reimbursement doesn't occur until the development is built. And 34M is not the TIF number--it is the total assistance #.
@10:28-No Centrum cheerleader here. Just tired of conspiracy theories with no basis in fact. The point made was that reimbursement does not occur until the project is built. Maybe the project won't succeed, but buildings will get built (or Centrum wont' get any public assistance).
There is no 44M TIF for the Fenton plant so I dont' what comparison you are making.
Status quo isn't exactly working...
Crestwood is getting less than 20k of the 315k or so property taxes Centrum is paying now.
@10:35/1:09/1:20--Any MO taxpayer can sue and allege a Sunshine law violation. If you believe the actions were wrongful, step on up....
This blog has already explained that we are a city divided. And so, we will be divided until the day comes when we will all be in Sxxx up to our eyeballs. This issue affects the whole city in case you don't know that.
No merchants will be knocking on Crestwood's door to get a business license, revenues will hit rock bottom more than they are at the present time, everyone's property values will be in the "oval" office known as the Toilet, and the Plaza property will be so noticeably deteriorated that the property will be subject to condemnation. Everybody except a skeleton crew will be working for the city, and the rest of the employees, determined by the city clerk/city administrator, will be jobless! Then Crestwood will end up being part of St. Louis County. But I guarantee you that while some who are against Centrum and TIFFYS will be jumping up and down just happy that they got their way, like Rome, and history Crestwood will be burning. But so what! No more Police and Fire Departments, no more beautiful parks or aquatic center, no more streets and sidewalks fixed. So, just keep fascilating and wait it out as long as it takes and it will all come to pass. Just like a donkey, the big shot mayor and board of aldermen need to be hit in the head by a 2 x 4 first to get their attention. Just wait naysayers - just keep waiting.
Looks like we are going to have to ask the experts on Centrum and their proposal, A.K.A, the Centrum Four, to get an answer to this question.
Of the $34,000,000 in tax assistance requested so far, how much does Centrum think will be spent on the safe removal of environmental hazardous materials in Crestwood Courts?
So a TIF is approved, the TIF bonds are sold and the money from the sale of those bonds goes into whose hands? Maybe Alderman Tennyson can answer this as he has such a close relationship with Centrum, that he knew that the AMC Theater was "on the bubble" several weeks ago. Oddly enough this claim can not be supported by any news reports, so I guess he got it from Centrum in a "work session"?
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2005/08/22/daily72.html
It's taken AMC 8 years, but they are almost there!
4:45 PM Blogger: Sam, you may want to put the for sale sign up now before you have a stroke! The Board was elected, if your not happy, start a recall drive!
Tom Ford
Ps, you have a last name?
4:30 PM Blogger: Just wait and see where this goes reference your meeting comment.
Tom Ford
To all: Since when is it ever OK to break the faith?
They did it, and they knew they were doing it!
Don,t believe me? Get their emails.
Tom Ford
Why are we not using Brownfield bonds to clean up the Crestwood Mall hazardous waste?
This will allow the developer to really clean up all of the "junk" under the mall!
How about creating the mall as a lucrative yard waste to build up the ground? There is a lot of money with yard waste and commercial debris to made for Crestwood.
I would to see all four alderman make a statement for the record at the next BOA meeting to inform their constituents of what they discussed and when are their next meetings to place them on the City's calendar for all to attend at their local hang out.
I agree with our Missouri Attorney Nixon ruling on how the Sunshine Law can cover the discussion of 4 Alderman for the public to know their intent of this meeting and who are they really representing? Centrum? City of Crestwood? A business connection? A job for their relatives?
They are public servants first and I believe they need to meet at our City Hall to record their conversations and viewpoints for everyone to review.
Thanks Tom for posting how our 4 Alderman are meeting on our City's business!
8:18 ask either Crentrun or their spokespersons, the Centrun Four who just happen to also be members of Crestwood BOA. If they dont know you can aways ask the four former aldermen, Pickel, Duncan, Roby, Beasly. They seem to know the inside of Centrums pocket maybe they have your answer?
1:23 AM Blogger: Welcome aboard, please feel free to give us your take on whatever you wish to discuss.
If you would like me to post it as a main thread, just say so, or email it to me at tford60@earthlink.net and I will do it for you.
Our rules are simple, no insults to anyone without placing your name on it, and no nasty words please.
Again, were glad to have you.
Tom Ford
12:50 PM June 12, 2013
Actually, the legallity of the meeting described in this thread falls under the purview of the Missouri Attorney General's Office.
There was a meeting of four aldermen that was not posted, was not open to the public, and city business was discussed. It would not be unreasonable to conclude that this meeting violated the Sunshine Law, which is intended to be liberally construed.
Martha Duchild
I agree with you Martha. There is a lot of money at stake with the Crestwood Mall.
Is the City of Crestwood at risk for another lawsuit over these private meetings with our 4 Alderman in the past and now in the current administration?
Do we need to update our Charter to prevent these meetings or some training for our alderman?
Do we need a risk assessment made of these 4 alderman meetings?
Tom and Martha,
Can we request a copy of our current and previous alderman's personal emails pertaining to the City of Crestwood business and a coyp of their cell phone records to know what is really going on with the Crestwood Mall deals?
Is it time for another closed door sealed agreement yet? That stinks to high heaven?
"In an e-mail sent to the mayor last week, a Centrum official said,
".....I believe that this deal is all but certain to be killed by my partners.....I have to be honest with you in that I am a bit disappointed in the way you have dealt with the press and the lack of your support on this matter... Centrum has spent 5 years attempting to formulate a responsible yet workable plan to re-develop this property... Centrum and Angelo, Gordon purchased this property years ago with the knowledge that it was in a rapidly deteriorating condition both from a leasing standpoint as well as from a physical standpoint... We purchased the property only after meeting with City officials and seeing that the city was 100% behind a TIF, understanding that it was next to impossible and simply not feasible to develop it otherwise...
"The position of the City may have changed with respect to supporting a TIF, however the dynamics of any number of development scenarios have not... Centrum has looked at and studied Lifestyle retail on this site, big box retail, office development, residential and any combination thereof and there has been absolutely no interest shown whatsoever in anyone pursuing this type of development... We have gone so far as to let a very prominent local developer tie up the property for over 6 months while he went on a road show to allure major retailers to no avail.... The concentration of big box retail at Lindberg between Watson and 44 creates an enormous obstacle in getting people to focus elsewhere... The proximity of the three major malls; South County, West County and the Galleria, make it entirely unfeasible for traditional retail or so called Lifestyle retail to locate here as well..."
http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/384763/3/Barricades-going-up-at-Crestwood-Mall-redevelopment-in-jeopardy-
@3:15 p.m.
"[W]e find that it was the intent of the legislature not to include within the definition of "public governmental body" a group of the body's members comprising less than a quorum. In other words, a meeting of less than a quorum does not constitute a meeting of a "public governmental body" when there is no intent to avoid the purposes of Chapter 610. This legislative intent reflects the legislature's desire to allow frank discussion at all times between individual members of a board, not just in formal public meetings, while still requiring them to meet in public when taking any binding action that will affect the public."
Sorry lynch mob.
9:18 poster: Well, we did it up right, didn't we? We had a buyer, a chance to redevelop the property, and start generating tax money, and the board BLEW IT. I am disgusted with their squabbling, argumentative, sophomoric behavior and plan to tell them so in very clear terms.
10.18...
I agree .the Attorney General Mr Koster will investigate this complaint in full to exonerate the "wayward aldermen" involved..
Let's put this to rest .I am sure we can rely on the full cooperation of all the parties involved.
What makes you so sure they will be exonerated? see guilt gal;ore here!
READ THE EMAILS FOPLKS, THEN WE CAN DISCUSS THIS.
TOM FORD
7:39 June 17. Mr. Ford, you have said that your blog is an open forum for discussion. If you feel as if I am having a stroke, I can assure you that I am not; but I am very sad and unhappy.
I am very upset about what is NOT going on with our Plaza. And when your property values go down the tube, you will be so sorry that you will have a stroke.
Some people will agree with me that it is worth the hard work to save it. But there is nitpicking, and backstabbing on this board and I have concluded that this board of aldermen will not come together on one of the most important issues we have ever encountered.
Also, please understand there is no way that I would, as you have stated "Recall" anyone. But I will sell my home and be out of "Dodge" city when people cannot work with each other for the sake of Crestwood. I am sure that means nothing to you and others. But I will sell before I have to look one more day at what use to be a great place to shop and live & to see the Mall treated with none of the respect it use to have. This property is a "diamond in the rough" but you and others are the very essence of what a disposable society really is.
Further, unless this blog is no longer a forum for citizens opinions, I am assuming I am still allowed to speak what I feel.
And so Mr. Ford you don't have to suggest "recall" or anything to me. This is your blog and you can do with it what you so desire!
This issue has gone long enough and I beg the mayor and board to stand up and give this Mall another chance to be viable again.
@11:28
Tom, to save us all the trouble of paying the copying fees and requesting the emails (since you have already done so), why don't you post the most damning email(s) and let everyone judge. Unless the aldermen specifically wanted to meet to avoid the Sunshine law, I fail to see the violation if a group of aldermen wanted to get together and have a frank discussion concerning the mall and Crestwood (as a quorum wasn't present). Considering that none of the 8 aldermen have a working knowledge of Robert's rules without the City attorney holding their hand, I doubt that any of the aldermen understand the sunshine law enough to set out to intentionally violate or circumvent it. If the emails show otherwise, then post them.
Didn't the city Attorney quit in disgust? 11.18?..heck of a thing when a lawyer can't take any more...of Aldermanic antics.
I saw the Centrum press release on channel 5 news last night. That's what it was a press release. Struck by a few things.
1. Centrum's claim that before they bought the Mall they met with City officials and were promised a TIF if they purchased the Mall. Q. Was this a public meeting? Was it the BOA? Who made this promise? Do the persons making the promise have the authority to do so?
2. Spokesperson from Centrum said last nite that they have been trying to work with the City since they bought the property 5 years ago. That is a lie! Until 11/2012 Centrum never appeared with any plans or proposals before the City's citizens and elected officials. Which is odd considering their claim that 5 years ago they were promised a TIF, why didn't they present plans right after they made the purchase? Instead of doing nothing to improve their property, doing nothing to attract new retailers, and forced out about 18 months ago the tenets they did have?
3. Why did Centrum wait 5 years? The answer is why not? They had their promise, they had an income stream from the tenets at that time, they had no over head. Why not ride it out as long as the income at least met their expense.
4. Centrum stated that every proposal possible would fail as the reason they have not offered but one proposal. Yet the very company Centrum wanted to be hired to oversee their proposal stated that at best Centrum's proposal and time line was iffy for success! Who is not compromising? Who is stone walling?
5. In public meetings Centrum has stated they do not need a TIF to make a profit on their proposal. So why the threat of pulling out or putting the property up for sale in 60-80 days? In their press release the stated that for 6 months they had a local developer market the property BEFORE Centrum presented their proposal. It didn't sell! Why?
6. It didn't sell because Centrum was asking too much!
7. The Centrum Four got together for a work session to discussed the future of Crestwood Courts. Does the latest news from Centrum mean that their ideas were rejected by Centrum?
8. What possible idea, plan could have come out of a work session regarding the Courts that would have stopped Centrum from making their announcement?
I'll tell you what it would it have been. That the BOA was going to give them the TIF Centrum said they did not need, but were promised to them by a previous unknown unnamed group of City Officials which Centrum had not used at the time the promise was made.
It is my view based on the information Centrum has now shared with us, that they blew it by not starting the redevelopment right after having received TIF promise 5 years ago. Don't forget in Centrums statement they said they bought the property AFTER City Officials promised a TIF. Centrum could have avoided all of this if they were really serious about how warm and fuzzy they felt about Crestwood Mall from their youth and how they wanted it to return to it's former day's of glory and had started development right after the purchase.
Instead Centrum has drug it's feet for 5 years, costing Crestwood millions of dollars in potential tax dollars, during which time, former and current City Officials were asking for updates from them (it's on the record, Crestwood was asking when, how soon, what do you need for 5 years) and now they have the gall to threaten us with selling the property in 60-80 days because Crestwood has jumped through their hoops and given them what they admit to not need?
SEE YA, don't let the door hit you on the out. And to any possible new owner, City Officials can not promise you a TIF as a way to persuade to purchase the property. Buy it, come to the BOA with a proposal, listen to the concerns of the citizens, modify if possible, ask for help from us if you need it, and get it done. We will not be blackmailed, nor will we make you promises we can not keep.
IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE! Each member of the BOA and the Mayor had a copy of Robert's Rules given to them until Former Mayor Roy claimed it was his meeting and the BOA was operating under his Rules. Remember?
"Considering that none of the 8 aldermen have a working knowledge of Robert's rules without the City attorney holding their hand, I doubt that any of the aldermen understand the sunshine law enough to set out to intentionally violate or circumvent it. If the emails show otherwise, then post them."
IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE!
City Attorney did not quit. Mayor following the standards for the city set by the state issued RFP from law firms. Good govt requires this to be done every 5 years I believe.
2:39 poster:
You have no verification of #'s 2,3and 6 of your post. What you state immediately after #8 is also conjecture, unless you have actual proof to offer up. This is, in my view, becoming a serious problem: people assuming and putting theories forth without a shred of evidence. This is how misinformation and rumors start. So, if you have absolute proof that absolutely NO efforts were made in the last 5 years to reach out, that they were "riding it out", that Centrum was asking too much, and that your assertion about the TIF is correct, you need to keep in mind that this is, in fact, spreading potential misinformation, which is one of the huge issues with this whole mess. All your numbered comments, without proof to back them up, become nothing more than your opinion, which, while perhaps valid, is not enough to use as evidence as to which side is in the right.
@2:41
Normally ignorance of the law is no excuse, and had 5 Aldermen met there would be a violation even if they didn't realize they were violating the law. However, "a meeting of less than a quorum does not constitute a meeting of a "public governmental body" when there is no intent to avoid the purposes of Chapter 610." Because there was not a quorum, they needed to intentionally set out to violate the Sunshine law in order for a violation to occur. If this quorum-less group of 4 had no intention to violate the Sunshine law, then where is the violation? If they are unaware of the Sunshine law provisions, that is unfortunate, but their innocence/ignorance might well have saved them here.
@2:39
Centrum purchased the mall at the end of March 2008. Lehman Brothers filed bankruptcy in September 2008, and most development froze for years. Phase 1 of Ballpark village has been delayed since 2007, and isn't supposed to be done until 2014.
The death of Keith Barket in 2010 I'm sure didn't help matters either.
I will grant you that it is misleading of Centrum to claim that they have been working with the city for 5 years to develop the property, when they perhaps worked with the City for a few months 5 years ago before the economic collapse. I don't fault them for not trying to start the project in the depths of a recession in 2009-2011, but they shouldn't act like the City was the issue during that time. The Centrum proposal calls for a large construction loan (in addition to the public money and their own cash), and that kind of loan would likely not have been available in the depths of the recession.
Poster 4:14
#2 list the dates Centrum did appeared or request to appear before the BOA to share with Crestwood their vision of the future of their property. You will not find any until after the election in April 2013.
# 2 was based on what Centrun said in their recent press release in which they threatened to sell their property in 60-80 days.
No conjector, just using Centrums own quoted.
#3 if you know the reason for Centrum waiting for five years before appearing before the BOA with a purposal,
please share it with us and I will stand corrected on that
point.
#6 if the property was not priced too high, then why didn't some purchase it? The attempt to sell the property based on Centrums own statement took place before the current TIF debate. The fear of not getting a TIF was not the issue as Centrum had the promise given them by Crestwood City Officals at the time of their orginal purchase.
#8 if you reread this you will see it is a question, which is being asked of the reader to answer. Centrum is on record having stated before the BOA that they will make no futher changes to their current purposal.
It is clear to me that if you had the evidence to prove my points were incorrect, you would have shared them.
Instead, you have ignored the very statements made by
Centrum themselves and have attempted to cast the
debate as one driven by opinion, rumors, and misinformation. If you have facts that you are willing to share that prove my points are what you claim them to be, by all means please share them with us. An example of what I would like to find the truth about would be, who were/are the Crestwood Officals who Centrum met and spoke with that Centrum said promised TIF? Can you help us there?
I didn't say I had the answers, I pointed out that I doubted you did either, thus my reference to stating things as fact that cannot be verified as such. If you wish to extend your opinion as fact, you are within your rights to do so.
But if you don't have the answers how can you claim what I've stated are opinion?
Truth is the Centrum press release is an attempt to force Crestwood into caving in their demands.
That is my opinion.
A note to those who seek answers from me reference the emails between the Alderman I have via a FOIA form.
I am not going to scan the "best" ones and show them here. No in fact I want YOU to go to City Hall, fill out YOUR own for those answers.
Are the four in serious trouble? I believe they are. When you read what I have you too will see that their actions were taken after numerous email messages to each other.
They did it, they knew it was wrong, but they did it anyway! That my friends is not called "innocent," but rather arrogant!
Tom Ford
11:42 AM Blogger: Sam, this is an open blog with but two simple rules.
1, Insult someone, sign your full name.
2. No nasty language.
Any and every violation of the above will result in the post being deleted.
Never forget just what a Blog is, you are here due to my good graces, so do not presume to lecture me on how to do this, or, POOF, your history.
Now, if you will post away, tell us what you think. but keep it clean, and do post your SIR name should you insult someone in the process. After all, you would expect no less.
Tom Ford
Back to my question above, what will YOU require of your Alderman if he / she were involved in this "off campus" meeting?
I want a full explanation and subsequent apology from mine, or a resignation, take your pick.
Tom Ford
Tom did you complain to the Attorney General? under sunshine law violations ?
7:41 AM Blogger: An old axiom in boxing is that you never telegraph a punch.
Tom Ford
Tom Ford 6:31 Did I hurt someone with my words - I apologize. Nasty Language? I didn't think that I used any nasty language. Nevertheless - I will apologize if I did hurt someone's itty bitty feelings! Also if you think I don't know that with one key stroke (Poof) I am gone off your blog. I am taking that as a promise and not a threat Mr. Ford. And once again, I am sorry if I got carried away.
But as a senior citizen my feelings are also hurt by the way this plaza property has been discussed so much by so many - you do not know what is true and what isn't. We are dealing with so much heresay,conjecture, some truths and many false accusations. So which is which and what is what?
And yes, I can get carried away when I think about all the time that has been wasted. I have a lot of sickness in my family and I would hope that before life as I know it disappears, I will be alive to see the Crestwood I know and love flourish.
If I have sounded upset, it's because I am. And also upset and tired of all the rhetoric and confusion and the division amongst the aldermen, citizens and the mayor. Now we got the Sunshine Law, Attorney General, into the mix. Oh Brother!
Can we try not getting off the real problem? When you bring up things like that, you are just making the real problem get worse.
When a person gets shot and may or may not live, do the people who are there to witness it start trying to find out who the shooter was, while the victim is laying on the ground - or do they attend to the victim first because he/she could die if nothing is done? Do the people who are standing around start pointing fingers, blaming this person or that person? Remember that our Mall is the issue and not sunshine laws, or Roberts Rules or Rob Golterman.
This massive struggle is as big as the Great Barrier Reef. In my case, when you are a senior citizen your days of living get smaller and smaller and you never know how much more time you have to do good things. So I suggest every official on the dais remember - this isn't all about you as individuals, your job is all about us - together - working hard to make good decisions and sometimes that means compromise - look it up in the dictionary!
The more pressing problem is if we broke ground tomorrow it would be 3 years before we saw a dime of revenue. So until then how are we going to pay our bills?
Any Ideas?
What should we cut? what can we raise?..
11:55 AM Blogger: Sam, re read what I said.! And the issues are what I make them, not what others decide, get it?
For what it' s worth, I am 71 and also a "senior."
Tom Ford
12:29 pm
Better question, if Centrum had broken ground the day after unknown and nameless Crestwood City Officals had promised a TIF if Centrum purchased the mall, wouldn't the project be completed and Crestwood the recipient of thousands of tax dollars? Who caused that to not happen, the City or the Developer?
Thank you!
Hypothetical questions don't pay real and pressing bills.
Even during construction Crestwood would stand to benefit some. All of those construction workers will be buying their lunch, gas, and after work drinks somewhere which might help sales taxes slightly.
Breaking ground with positive momentum might also convince a Best Buy or other current retailer on the Watson corridor to stay put if they think more traffic will once again be coming to Crestwood. Other tenants that are not part of the project but anticipate the project and positive momentum might move to lease the empty spaces along Watson (next to Gordman's, Office Max Plaza, etc.). Barring that, the next 3 years will be tough if the project moves forward immediately. If the property goes back on the market, then Crestwood will have some hard decisions to make.
Finally has anyone else noticed that the City Administrator has stopped including the sales tax numbers in his monthly reports? Are the numbers that bad or embarrassing where you no longer share them with the citizens unless written requests for them are filed?
3:43 6/20 I agree with what you said and applaud you for stating many of the positives about the potential of construction at the mall. You have mentioned many things that others have not thought out. You are so right about what going forward on this project could bring. And further I would also like to hear an answer from your last question about the monthly reports from the city administrator which have not included sales tax numbers.
Centrum has stated more than once that they do not need a TIF for this project. If they (and their supporters) believe in the project, then why choose the TIF route? It has not been productive.
In choosing the non-TIF route, Centrum and its partners won't get the desired ROI, but they'll still make money on the project.
Perhaps those who support Centrum's plan and want to see it come to fruition would be better served by trying to convince Centrum that a 5% ROI is a good enough return. That might be more productive than repeatedly criticizing members of the board and public for performing their due diligence.
Martha Duchlid
2:48 share with us what you know about real pressing bills .
It is not hypothetical is state that 5 years ago Centrum had the green light to develop and receive a TIF. That if they had done so the odds are large that the City would still have large and pressing bills.
3:43, you may be correct about all the positive impacts of construction anywhere for constructions sake alone. However, just think how much benifit city would have received for the past 5 years, if Centrum have moved as fast then as you want the city to move now.
Also be sure to include in construction benifits the increase in the sale of all materials needed to build that a former Alderman makes their living now by selling same. Only question I would ask is where were they 5 years ago? Were they putting pressure on Centrum then or were they afraid to maybe offend Centrum and lose any sales for their business so they did nothing?
In the very short term, rebuilding the Court now would improve a lot of things for some people. In the long term rushing to please Centrum now will deprive a lot of people of a lot of benefits for the long term.
Centrum needs to rethink what they are purposing instead of threatening to take their ball and go home if they don't get their way. Compromise on their part would be a nice change after having sat for five years allowing their property to decline in value with zero effort to improve it. 8 months ago Centrum presented their purposal after doing nothing for the previous 5 years. Now it's take our 3rd rate purposal or else.
Just a suggestion to those who have, based on their statements, regular contact with Centrum. Ask them would they agree to a TIF minus their $17,000,000 purchase price, and that prevented them from selling any part of the purposal until all buildings are completed and occupied?
Boy, isn't this a mess. What's our next step when Centrum does "take their ball and go home"? Does anybody know? Why is it that other nice cities have done TIF's and are doing well? I shudder to think what will happen when Centrum is gone and totally out of the picture. There is no Plan B. Plan A is basically on life-support. And that won't last! And since we really have never been able to get off of dead center in the first place, we have lost the biggest thing that this standoff has wasted - time! We have lost so much time it is sickening. We will never get it back and I think Centrum will pull up stakes and leave because they cannot seem to tap dance good enough to satisfy the Mayor and Board. So pray tell Oh Great Master Minds of Crestwood, what happens then?
Sam
"The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Run for your lives"
Do you really believe this is the best we can do for the TIF Centrum is requesting?
9:42 PM Blogger: Sam, what happens now is that we hold our ground, sit back and wait for a REAL proposal from Centrum.
The Centrum infomercial on TV this week is SOP for Centrum. They want to scare us into a TIF so they can get their money back, level the place, put up a tent and walk away.
They threatened to sell the property in 60-90 days, GREAT, do it, show us what a real big shot you are, loose your collective assets Centrum, I challenge you to do it!
This developer is a four flusher, all hat and no cows as they say in Texas, so let them rant away. We hold the trump card, they need it, so why, oh why should we bail out now with the engine still running?
Your Board (at least four of them) and the Mayor are doing the right thing, get behind them, and make Centrum do what we want for a change!
Centrum is on record saying they can do it themselves without public assistance, so let them put on their big boy pants and "JUST DO IT!"
Tom Ford
Worry about this, forget the local woes!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-warrant
That's your freedom of speech being trashed folks, do something about it!
Tom Ford
If you are calling to call a bluff, you had better be holding some cards yourself...I think Crestwood has maybe a pair of Jacks tops.
If you are a national developer (Centrum) who makes their money by successful developments, you would want to put the best tenants possible in this development. For a moment stop and consider that their email to KSDK was correct--that they have contacted all of the national retailers, and the current proposal is what will work because those are the only tenants that are interested. Because that mix does not include a large national retailer, it is risky for Centrum, such that the TIF is needed.
Everyone complains about Centrum's plan being inferior, but fails to look at the structural issues facing Crestwood that makes it a less than ideal spot for large retail.
If they (Centrum) go it alone without the TIF (unlikely but I guess anything is possible), they will have a lot more freedom to bring in whatever tenants they want--say hello to Walmart Neighborhood Market probably. One overlooked benefit of the City partnering with Centrum on some public financing is the right to have some control over the tenant mix (i.e. "No WalMart).
7:30 AM Blogger: No the City is holding a full house my friend! The funding to abate the asbestos as well as the other pollutants in that development will be heavy.
Now we need to be aggressive and start writing the code violations so apparent at that location, show them were not going to roll over for them or anyone else!
Centrum has NO signed prospectus sheets as of the last look, so just who will they bring to Crestwood? At this time, no one!
"Because that mix does not include a large national retailer, it is risky for Centrum, such that the TIF is needed."
Risky? Well guess what, being a developer is a risky business. You and I are forced to take risks every day, they need to do the same, they bought their way into this,it was no "pig in a poke," they need to JUST DO IT!
I an sick and tired of those who feel sorry for Chicago companies who come here and want US to help them out! As the man said, "they bought their ticket, they knew what they were getting into," so let THEM do it by themselves!
Tom Ford
I do not feel this Mall issue should be compared to a card game or called a pig in a poke. And the "sky hasn't even begun to fall" - but when it does" - there will be another song to sing. TIF or No TIF; the way this board feels, you are living in the past or at least four of you are plus the Mayor.
For many years, you had members of the board of aldermen as well as P&Z that felt Crestwood was so privileged they could make developers and merchants jump through hoops - and they wanted to be in Crestwood so bad - the merchants asked How High! Worse than picky, yes they were. They made demands on merchants and developers that cost those involved bundles of money before they would OK their plans. And they did what they were told down to every little detail; beautification, construction details, walls, shrubs, etc. you name it.
Some board members actually felt they were living in a million dollar city and compared themselves to Ladue, and Frontenac, and more.
Now, we don't need to act desperate but for heaven sakes is there no compromise? The Bible according to Mr. Ford and his colleagues says we "are not budging"! I do not agree because this is the 21st century and things have changed but more importantly this issue has gone on way too long. What are we waiting for? A wasted opportunity? We will wait until some cheesy millionaire comes along and needs no TIF but ends up creating so many problems we have to fight another 5 years to get what we want. Baloney!
You all keep thinking manna from heaven is going to come down in a funnel cloud and solve all our problems just because we are Crestwood? Sounds like it to me.
4 say yes; 4 say no; sounds like a war to me. We are the casualties!
2:L44 PM Blogger: Sam. My Lord you are nothing if not verbose!
Mt friend have YOU ever placed your name on a ballot in all the years you have lived here, served on an active board, or worked on a City project?
You seem to be a very vocal member of a very vocal minority group that would have our City aquess to any developer, period!
You huff and puff about me, my friends, and anyone who is against this ill planned fiasco. Why I let you do it is beyond me, but that said, give us your worst, we enjoy the level of inaccuracy in your statements.
At no time has ANY Alderman ever said they did not want the development. only the public funding attached to it are the contentious items. Don't believe me? Ask Ms. Jackie Stock who has a complete and comprehensive set of articles from 2009 to prove it!
Tom Ford
Well I was part of many boards and commissions throughout the years and I can tell you right now who served on them. I saw and I heard what was said and done OK?
I am so sorry that you feel that I don't know what I say because I do; and my dear Mr. Ford I applaud your veracity and all the hours you have placed yourself in front of this blog - but I just cannot agree with you on the funding.
I don't have to see Ms Stock's complete set of articles; after all, she should be very vigilant in what is going on as she lives so very close to this property and she loves Crestwood very much. I admire her and always have; now if we could have all the board of aldermen and the mayor work at this issue as much as Ms. Stock, we would have a paradise to call a City. If anyone deserves praise for their efforts it is her. She has been here a long time and she wants to protect Crestwood and so do I.
I don't care how you and your friends feel about little sweet TIFFY; that's your take - I don't see why I conversely need my hands slapped because I disagree with your group.
But some aldermen ARE against TIFFY as well as what the proposal states; as well as people who remain anonymous on your blog have stated. So I felt I should address what I have read about in the minutes of the past, as well as in the news. I also have read many articles through the years.
Your friends and you have a difference of opinion from me as far as the "funding". That's all! And if you can't see what has happened in the past few years with regard to moneys and layoffs and people who are still trying to make a living - yes even developers, money is tight. TIF is just an avenue to assist us. Whether it is buying a home or a mall, it is a little rough with money. So if Ms. TIFFY wants to help - so be it is my opinion.
When you say "we" enjoy the inaccuracy in my statements - Sounds like you have been discussing things I have said, and it sounds like maybe some people from city hall in particular or whoever you share information with are having a good time poking fun at my opinions. That's contrary to your rules I thought!
Mr. Ford, I am old but not dead and I have only stated what I have read, not in articles but in the minutes of past meetings from years past. And if you are enjoy the "inaccuracy of my statements" maybe you should change the rules and regulations you have specifically stated on this Blog. And I have a pretty good idea who is enjoying this laugh-a-thon with you without mentioning any names.
Therefore, saying that, you are sending out a very different message when I read your last 4:17 PM comment.
I may have a difference of opinion from you and others but to say that "we" feel "enjoyment" from my inaccuracies is really an insult and not at all what you preach about your blog.
So, challenging me and what I say? That's my take in what I have seen, heard and read. If Ms. Stock has time to cut things out of the papers and do anything else she likes to do - she has my compliments on being a vigilant city resident. But there is nothing to challenge with my words. I am not quoting anybody but what you stated in your comment, I am merely doing what your people do - speaking my mind. But conversely, I never say I "enjoy their inaccuracies"! So have fun with mine - as you will - and if you feel enjoyment good for you and your good friend(s).
Sorry but I think maybe you were the one who said "if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen". And boy it is getting really hot in here now!!!! I just maybe will take your advise Mr. Ford - but remember this is suppose to be a forum - not a debate.
@4:29
The TIF of 26M or so as proposed is for demo costs, asbestos removal, site work, storm water, grading, etc. It does not directly call for reimbursement of the purchase price.
The TIF agreement would have anti-transfer language w/o city approval. Buildings would need to be complete for TIF money to be paid to Centrum.
The compromise you have proposed would all be something that would be included in the redevelopment agreement. Which PGAV was going to help Crestwood draft:
"PGAV will provide ongoing technical assistance in the negotiation of a redevelopment
agreement between the City and Developer including, but not limited to, review and comment on draft documents and attendance at meetings as requested by the City."
The 4 anti-development Aldermen are not interested in compromising. If Centrum cut their TIF number in half tomorrow, those 4 would still vote it down on principle.
I think Martha above mentioned that the 4 anti-development aldermen were being unfairly criticized for doing "due diligence". Please. Performing due diligence is an affirmative act; it requires action--it is an opposite to inaction, or not performing due diligence. I would be very interested in hearing what "due diligence" the 4 anti-development aldermen have done. Who have they talked to? Have they commissioned any studies? Have they prepared a counteroffer to Centrum? Run any numbers? Talked with any retailers? Talked with any attorneys? Talked with any engineers? Talked with any developers? Talked with other municipalities that have gone through TIF recently? Talked with anyone in construction? Talked with anyone in demolition?
The criticism the 4 anti-development aldermen receive is wholly justified.
5:23 PM Blogger: Sam, well you have confirmed my suspicion , I am living rent free in your head, you can' give up, can you!
Tom Ford
5:33 PM Blogger: And when was the last time one of your bunch was in contact witth Centrum? We know of one who has, who else?
Tom Ford
I would hope that the Mayor/BOA would be in constant contact/negotiations with Centrum to reach an acceptable agreement. They should be viewed as a business partner instead of an enemy. Instead, the Aldermen miss meetings 2 at a time (last two meetings), and cannot assemble a quorum for work sessions (last two times), and seem to have taken a fairly lackadaisical approach to the whole idea of redeveloping the mall. Whoever above said the BOA was waiting on manna from heaven hit the nail on the head.
Since there aren't elections for aldermen for two years, and the mall redevelopment ship will have long-since sailed by then, we should all probably turn our focus to new ideas for Crestwood to raise revenue as sales taxes continue to decline. I will not list continuing to defer maintenance on streets and parks, because Crestwood already does that, and it's too obvious. We could however try:
-continue to not give raises to any employees
-redirect all police cars from neighborhood patrols to line up on our 1/8 mile of 44 to pull over people going 5mph over like in north county by the airport
-in addition to having a custodian serve as public works director, also appoint custodians to be police chief and fire chief
-Quit hiring people to cut the grass on city property
-Have our animal control officer start a puppy mill
-Tolls for the Crestwood portion of Grant's trail
6:28 pm 6/21 - Great comments and right on!
6:09 PM 6/21 - Agree with your comments especially the part about Crestwood being a business partner with Centrum instead of being an enemy. Lakadaisical aldermen for sure.
5:46 PM 6/21 - I am so glad you got it together - now I can sleep tonite. Your blog was suppose to be a forum. U R SO transparent!
5:33 PM, June 21, 2013
You are wrong! Centrum in answering a citizens question at a BOA meeting (it's on tape folks!) stated the amount of money they are requesting for TIF does include getting the amount they spent to purchase the property 5 years ago.
@9:02 pm
I could be, but I don't think so. I think the question asked was if the 17M purchase price was included in the total project amount (not the total TIF amount), and the Centrum rep said that it was. My interpretation was that they included the 17M in the Centrum share of the 100M or so non-TIF project cost so that the percentage of TIF requested as a share of the total project cost would appear lower and more reasonable.
I think total Centrum breakdown is roughly:
26M TIF
8M CID/TDD
17M purchase price (already spent obviously)
44M construction loan
41M cash
=project total of 136M, with 34M of public money and 102M of Centrum money
If you notice, the Mayor and others often refer to the project as a 120M project with 34M of public money...I can only presume they are not including the 17M purchase price in the total, which is probably a more realistic way to describe the project...makes the percentage of TIF look worse though...in any event, the TIF does not include the 17M purchase price
7:00 PM Blogger: Sam. I have it together, but do you?
I worry that you're being used as a shill for the SB FOUR. Who better than a senior citizen with all the wonderful credentials you say you possess to do their bidding.
By the way, I assume you were given a REAL last name, right? Since you're so cock sure of yourself why don't you use it, or are you ashamed of what you're saying here?
Tom Ford
I bet the SB FOUR wish they possessed such power!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2345108/Beautiful-pink-cherry-tree-chopped-health-safety-inspectors-decide-outgrown-location.html
Just think, they could deem the mall too big for the space and......
Tom Ford
Here is what "speaking before thinking" will get you. It matters not if it's ones grandma or a mall kiddies!
This is from a face book post.
"The Kitchen Cabinet"
Speaking before thinking is a dangerous endeavor...
"From the stage at the recent Women Deliver conference, former US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s daughter Chelsea revealed that her much-admired maternal grandmother was the child of unwed teenage parents who “did not have access to services that are so crucial that Planned Parenthood helps provide.”
Chelsea’s grandmother was born of an unintended pregnancy. And new research shows that her family is not alone in treasuring a person who – if Planned Parenthood had been successful – would not have been born."
Remember this one SB FOUR before your next meeting, it just might help!
Tom Ford
There is not a single alderman who does not want redevelopment to occur at the mall site, so calling
four of the aldermen "anti-development" is patently untrue, and adds no value to the discussion.
Martha Duchild
10:01 PM, June 21, 2013
The truth is out there, on tape at City Hall.
Go on line under Crestwood's Website at the Aug. 14, 2012 boa meeting and hear what's really going on at city hall. No laws broken cause it is an open meeting and you will hear it for yourself - then you will know who controls city hall. Read the South County Times from Friday about city hall, and that is just the tip of the iceberg!
@11:26
Good point, but the actions of the 4 who oppose every ordinance relating to the development (even the initial selection of Centrum as the developer--what purpose was served by that?) will lead to the lack of a development, so while their inner hopes and dreams may not be anti-development, the results of their (in)action will result in the lack of a development for the time being. It is naive to think the mall will be demolished without TIF. I do not question the integrity or motivations of any of the aldermen--I'm sure they all think they are doing what is best for the city, but I do very much question the judgment of the 4 who continue to be "anti-development" in their votes.
2:10 PM That is the most accurate statement anyone can make and I am glad somebody else is getting tired of the 4 who oppose every ordinance relating to the development. There is not one single sentence that I disagree with especially "it is naïve to think the mall will be demolished without TIF.
SAM! remember the rules here? If you're going to be insulting to anyone, sign you real full name, or do not post as it will be removed!
You knew it, you even commented on it, yet you chose to try it, well.............
Tom Ford
2:10 PM Blogger: May I suggest you contact Ms. Jackie Stock for the real truth? You see she has put together a board with EVEY newspaper article since 2009 on it, and your statement just is not true!
There have been NO Alderman or Mayors who have opposed any development at that site, only the ill advised TIF, TDD, CID that Centrum want's to hold us up for.
Don't believe me, contact Ms. Stock and I am sure she will gladly set your record straight.
Tom Ford
@2:10, @4:26
How's the old quote go?
"I've never questioned the integrity of an umpire. Their eyesight, yes."
2:10 PM, June 22, 2013
Explain your support of the Centrum proposal instead of finding fault with those who do not support it.
$750, 000 in projected sales taxes
Mr. Ford - Insulting is your forte not mine. I am upset yes and you should be too because you also care for Crestwood. But the aldermen still want to be divided and I have shown my anger regarding the TIF.
However, I believe that by your rash comments to my comments are just a reason to get me to get off your blog.
So therefore, you win and you and your city hall person can celebrate. You are the one who insults me by stating that you and others (we) "enjoy" reading my inaccuracies. Then you name drop Ms. Stock, who happens to be a very good friend of mine from years past.
But I will "joyfully" get off your blog and you and your friend can have something else to laugh at.
Tom, I campaigned for you and wore myself out trying to get you to be an alderman. One man in my neighborhood hated you so much, he slammed the door in my face when I tried to talk to him to support you; but I pursued in vain.
Yes the name Sam - is not my name - just as somebody said (I am so predictable).I am Sandy G.
I wanted to get on the blog because I am sick and tired of the Mall issue and I don't care if the people (Centrum) want a TIF or not.
I am for whatever it takes. Half of the board doesn't even show up when it is important. Because they do not care is all I can conclude.
I never wanted to be on this blog but I thought since my husband - is very, very, sick, that it might get my mind off of my problems; but since there are people in the past that have not been very hospitable to my comments I felt that maybe I should assume an alias. So I did. Points to those who already knew who I was - what can I say!
Well this blog has all come crashing down on me and you are associating with persons who "enjoy" my inaccuracies - So I won't bother you again!
I need nothing further to say but at one time, I thought you would be one alderman who had it all together. I worked myself to death banging on doors for you. Now I see that you have come up in the world of the City of Crestwood and have no reason to listen to a fool like me.
You have won so hooray for you - I am done. Do and say as you so desire. My comments mean nothing. Now you are flying with the "big guns"!
I just hope that I can be left alone as I have enough on my plate and since you have smoked me out of my hole - I will sign my real name.
I hope we can get our Mall back by working together with the developer. That's all!
By Sandy!
Tom Ford
Anonymous Anonymous said...
$750, 000 in projected sales taxes
7:23 PM, June 22, 2013
Is the best we can do?
Sandy,
To work together with Centrum would also be my goal. Problem is Centrum has made it clear this is their proposal and we can either love it or leave it. They aren't interested in compromise.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lets-GROW-Crestwood/398336440285845?fref=ts
6:41 PM Blogger: Oh yes, why is 90% of this page by Mr. Roby? Early electioneering for the Mayors job?
Tom Ford
This can be reviewed in person by contacting the City Clerk at City Hall.
Ms. Krumm, thanks for the email. I understand that not understanding the current situation can be frustrating. The dress code is not new. Mr. Sime used the existing dress code from a previous city administrator and reminded the employees that we in fact do have a dress code. I have zero issues with running the city in a professional manner.
You were optimistic when the new owners purchased the mall and were sure things would move along quickly. They purchased the mall five years ago. We have only been negotiating with the new owners for a few months (and they walked away during that time). Why after only a few months are you criticizing me and the Board? Why have you not sent a letter to the editor asking the owners why they have not moved forward after five years?
I spoke at length with the owners last week and I told them that the biggest obstacle we have now are the proponents of the current proposal. We have had countless meetings with a parade of people going after aldermen as individuals and their votes. This prevents us from making any progress. These personal attacks put their votes in concrete. I was outspoken at our last meeting that these negative attitudes continue to throw out anchors to keep this project dead in the water.
At the last meeting I was very clear that the Board is going to meet in a work session to try an find common ground to move this project forward. We are attempting to meet the week of July 8. The meeting's agenda will not include public comment during the discussion of aldermen. The developer supports this 100%. I assume they agree that these negative attacks hurt this project.
The current amount of TIF, CID and TDD of $34 million are inline with a retail development. A retail development is a revenue generator. Their current proposal is not retail and not a revenue generator. We have asked them to lower the request of public assistance more in line with the type of development they are proposing. Until now, they have refused to lower their request for public assistance. That is why this has not moved forward, not because the Board or I are not doing their job. I believe this is a reasonable request.
I am disappointed that you did not contact us first to get the facts. Your letter will not help the mall effort. It puts out another anchor. You should not be concerned but thankful that we are finally running the city as a professional city. Mr. Sime's experience is serving us all well and he is doing a wonderful job.
Regards, Jeff
On Sun, 6/23/13, Janice Krumm wrote:
From: Janice Krumm
Subject: What's happening to our city??
Date: Sunday, June 23, 2013, 5:27 PM
Mayor Schlink, Administrator Sime, AldermaN Trueblood and Alderwoman Stadter:
Below is a copy of an email I sent to the South County Times. I am very distraught about the goings on in our city. I was very optimistic when the current owners bought the mall and was sure things would move along quickly. I have not attended any of the meetings, because I was positive that the mayor and new board would come to a conclusion re the mall. Now, after reading the article in the June 21st issue of the South County Times, I feel I cannot ignore what's happening with the city. Just when I thought things might get better, Mr. Sime seems to be taking us back to the 1950's! Shame on all of you!
Jan Krumm
LETTER TO THE EDITOR OF THE SOUTH COUNTY TIMES:
What is happening to our city and what's going on at city hall? As a long-time citizen of Crestwood, I am very concerned about the direction our city is headed. Not only do we have aldermen and a mayor who can't come to a concensus on how to help the current owners of the mall to move forward with their plans, now we have a city administrator who is "cleaning house" by asking current employees to reapply for their jobs at a lower rate of pay. Per the article in the June 21st edition of the South County Times, the city administrator is also enforcing a dress code which prohibits.."visible piercings and tattoos." Does this include pierce ears for female employees---and how about a veteran with a tattoo of an American Eagle on his forearm? It seems we are not moving into the 21st century, but are stuck in the middle of the last century! Hey, I have an idea for the mall--how about we knock it down and put in a mobile home park and drive-in movie theater?
Jan Krumm
Crestwood
The letter is interesting. It doesn't address the plan ... it only addresses the standstill between the city and Centrum. I like how she says "...who can't come to a concensus on how to help the current owners of the mall to move forward with their plans". 34 million in TIF is now merely "help"?
Then it goes from that to an attack on the city administrator.
Ms Krumm - do you realize the owners have held on to this property for five years? "I was very optimistic when the current owners bought the mall and was sure things would move along quickly." Well they didn't. But now you're blaming the city.
Ms. Krumm, did you place your name on a ballot, have you served on the P&Z commission, have you even met the City administrator?
Our Board and the City Administrator are the ones keeping this project from turning into the very things you spoke of in your comments to the editor.
May I suggest that you schedule an appointment with Mr. Sime and find out exactly what sort of person he is? I have, and I believe he is a man we can all be very proud of as a citizen and employee.
Tom Ford
"We have had countless meetings with a parade of people going after aldermen as individuals and their votes. This prevents us from making any progress. These personal attacks put their votes in concrete."
I have heard criticism of the position of the aldermen opposed to the mall development at the BOA meetings, but I have not heard anything resembling what I would consider to be a personal attack. Public criticism comes with the job territory. Put on your big boy pants. Also, the mayor's statement that the oh-so-harsh criticism is causing the 4 aldermen opposed to the development to refuse to compromise is troubling. All of the aldermen should be voting with their heads, not their hearts, and certainly not because of some perceived personal slight received at a meeting. Admitting you were wrong on a vote takes character.
http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-Opinions-i-2013-03-06-265641.112112-Aldermen-show-courage-with-vote-reconsideration.html
I too took serious issue with the indication that as soon as an alderman is criticized for a vote, he/she is instantly required to cling to that vote no matter what. I would prefer to think our aldermen are not that childish.
7:08 PM It would be my wish that Mr. Roby be our next mayor he has got my vote already. 7:08 pm
Our mayor wants retail, but fails to address how Crestwood can again succeed as a retail hub with the existence of West County mall, South County mall, and Gravois Bluffs.
Why not go a different direct and try to stand out from the crowd? Why not position Crestwood as a place for entertainment for kids and adults?
We already have All-Star performance (batting cages), Monkey Joe's (for kids), Pole Position go karts (kids and adults), Crestwood bowl (traditional bowling), and two access points for Grant's trail (kids and adults). Why not add a movie theater (kids and adults), ice skating rink (winter only--kids and adults), Lucky Strike (upscale bowling/drinks), Howl at the Moon (piano bar and drinks), and other bars/restaurants to complete the entertainment concept. Maybe a second Dave and Buster's would be viable down South?
If Centrum will come down on their public assistance #, the aldermen should be willing to give their plan a chance. Just asking for retail shows a lack of innovative thinking. "Not a revenue generator"? That seems like an odd criticism. Last time I checked, movie theaters, restaurants, and bars weren't giving away their products for free.
7:08 PM It would be my wish that Mr. Roby be our next mayor he has got my vote already. 7:08 pm
Good to hear from you Mrs. Roby.
"If Centrum will come down on their public assistance #". That is the big "if".
I understand that what Centrum wants for TIF assistance is too high by law, as TIF levels are based on projected retail sales dollars that are to be taxed. That's not the Mayors law, that is the states law. It isn't a matter of someone wanting more retail, it is a requirement by state law.
What Centrum may very well be asking for is TIF money for a proposal that will not have enough sales tax dollars to pay off the bond holders in the 23 years allowed. Doesn't matter if its a bowling ally or movie house or anything other than retail sales tax pays off a TIF.
What is starting to dawn on me is this proposal which Centrum has refused to change, has walked away from the table from and is now threatening to pull the plug on, simply does not legally qualify for the amount of TIF they have demanded. That is not the City's problem or fault, Centrum has created the issue.
@4:08
You may well be right, but I think such a conclusion would be far more persuasive coming from PGAV or another planner
2:28 PM June 24th
The only impediment to breaking ground on this project is Centrum itself. They have stated plainly that they do not need a TIF. They want one (to increase their ROI), but they don't need one.
If Centrum is unwilling to change their concept in response to half of the board's concerns, then they have no more business with the board.
Centrum took a gamble when they bought the property, and took another gamble when they settled on a concept that they are (thus far) unwilling to change. The choice into which they've cornered themselves is to proceed without the TIF or sell the property. The next move is theirs to make.
Martha Duchild
@5:42
Is that opinion being offered as yours alone, or is your husband the alderman of a similar mindset?
In other words, is the mayor wasting his time trying to get two sides to compromise that it appears have nothing left to talk about?
5:46 PM Blogger: Compromise on what? Centrum has said it's their lame way, or nothing!
Tom Ford
5:23 PM Blogger: I am going to find out what the minimum is for 34M in TIF assistance, and I will post it here for ALL of us.
Tom Ford
I wrote the words, based on my opinion, and signed my name to the post; therefore, the post represents my opinion alone.
Martha Duchild
Given all the evidencce i don't think the city of Crestood could open a lemonade stand...
10:15 PM Blogger: Congratulations my friend, find a calendar and mark down this date because you're finally right!
No, Crestwood coulden't open a lemonade stand, in fact Crestwood can't open any business, that's the developer / business owner's job.
Tom Ford
Well said Mr. Tom, well said.
12:14 PM Blogger: "Hoisted on .their own petard" so to speak , now I am waiting for the report back on the legal TIF amount reference the tax generation as described by Centrum.
I am betting that a bowling alley, bar and movie house don''t even come close to a $34 million dollar investment in tax generation, ergo, no way to do it legally!
Tom Ford
Maybe not, but the real question is does Centrum's proposal qualify for TIF because of the sales tax revenue it will produce. I do not know if a bowling ally, bar, etc produce the type of tax that is defined as dales tax much less the amount needed.
Retail is the largest producer of retail sales tax.
This may explained why Centrum has walked away and not returned, even after the April election as they promised. They may now realize that their proposal with out any modification is DOA before the County TIF Commission.
If that's the case, you would think they would let their supporters know this so they didn't look like fools when that news breaks.
6:13 PM Blogger: it' no the type of tax, nor is it from where it comes, but rather the total dollar amount.
What Centrum has proposed is not sufficient to pay off the TIF in time. They must know this wouldn't you think?
Centrum care about it' supporters? They use and discard supporters every day, why would this be any different?
Tom Ford
"What Centrum has proposed is not sufficient to pay off the TIF in time."
Source for this ridiculous claim?
26 million TIF can be paid off in 23 years. It is funded with 1/2 of the sales taxes and 100% of the property tax increases. If you are going to be opposed to the development, at least pick a real reason.
9:33 PM Blogger: THEY WANT 34 MILLION, NOW DO YOUR FUZZY MATH!
TOM FORD
This thread is to be used for the actions of the "SB-4" and the remaining BOA members ONLY. Anything else will be removed on site.
If you have a topic you would like to see as a main thread, email me at tford60@earthlink.net and I will place it on the Blog verbatim as received.
Thank you,
Tom Ford
http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-Impact-News-i-2013-06-26-267577.112112-Crestwood-mall-will-officially-close-when-last-tenant-leaves.html
The Centrum spokesperson say's that the Mall will officially close when the last tenant leaves!
Well you could have fooled me as I thought it was "closed" quite a while ago!
Centrum will no doubt block off the property and see what (if anything) they can do to salvage their ill advised purchase I guess.
As far as the property goes, well, I think Centrum should do it now. Why not sell to someone with a viable (yours will not work) idea, and trot back to Chicago where you can do whatever it is you do.
As for me, well I am all stocked up on threats as it is. I remember the football Cardinals threatening to leave, they did (thank God)and guess what, were still here, so, call the moving van!
Memo to Ms. Shannon, start writing code violations NOW, let's show the big city boys were not the rubes they thought we were!
Tom Ford
Now any new retail construction faces the competition of the Chesterfield commons Outlet malls and retail complex. No one is going to rent in a New Crestwood facility when they can move to the More business orientated and already built Chesterfield facility. The Mayor did again miss the boat. There are fewer available retail customers available...even the lemonade stands are moving to Chesterfield.
I wonder how the state of Missouri inquiry into the Sunshine law is proceeding?
6:07 AM Blogger: so Centrum demands we bow to their wishes, and now it's the Mayors fault?
Explain how that works.
Tom Ford
6:09 AM Blogger: Call and ask them, it's in their hands now.
Tom Ford
Tear down that old mall and put in a Greyhound Park. The only Greyhound racing Missouri had was the KC Woodlands Race Park, and it closed down in 2008. The next closest Greyhound parks are 2 in Iowa and the Southland Park in West Memphis Arkansas. It would give the St Louis gaming money an alternate venue choice, and would be a huge draw as Greyhound Racing would be brand new to the area.
9:31 PM Blogger: Well you are thinking, out of the box maybe, but still thinking, Well done.
Now, I firmly believe that IF the SB 4 will please find the BOA chambers and join the rest of the community in pushing Centrum to either develop or sell, things will move ahead.
The people at the helm of Centrum are not stupid, they know how to develop property, and they know we know what will work there and what won't.
The only thing that will pay off a $34 million dollar TIF is retail, and lot's of it. No bowling ally on earth can do it, nor can a "senior center" or park, RETAIL (or a dog track)is the engine that we (and they) need here.
Now, what sort of retail? Well we know that there are NO anchor stores yet signed (there are no stores period) so I believe they need to go after a real drawing card, or forget our participation!
They have thrown down the gauntlet, they have said they will close the lot and put it up for sale, so I say let them, what's the hold up?
Stop playing games with Centrum, call their bluff and loan them the saw horses if they need them so we can start the inspections for code violations that should have been done a long time ago!
I have no idea what could have motivated the four Alderman to risk censure for going off site when they knew the work session meeting was cancelled, but if they want to do something to "move this ahead" they need to rally behind the Mayor and the rest of the Board and tell Centrum to "fish or cut bait!"
Tom Ford
Great post Tom!
Retail stores? What are you talking about "anchor stores". Forget a new mall in Crestwood with all retail cause it ain't gonna happen. Forget it if you are speaking of big department stores. They have all gone way far away from Crestwood. They are in Chesterfield, Chesterfield Valley, and further out. Urban sprawl has cut us off at the knees because people especially many young married couples are going further out to purchase newer homes and Crestwood is no longer where the big stores are. The percentage of young people living in Crestwood is dwindling. In the 60's, Crestwood was where people were shopping; the new Mall was built and at Christmas time, it was bumper to bumper all the way down highway 66 to get to see Santa and to shop at the Crestwood Mall. Living in the city of St. Louis and seeing the homes being built in Crestwood at that time, one would figure you had to be rich to live in one of those Crestwood homes! And every 20 years from then on, people have moved further and further out. Now all the big stores are in those areas like O'Fallon, Chesterfield, Chesterfield Valley, etc. and so on.- where they will make their money off of younger people, not retired people and residents in their 50's & 60's. Many people are graduates from college with good jobs and families. So what big anchor stores are going to break their necks to come to Crestwood Tom? Call Centrum's bluff? You are wrong if you think they are bluffing. They are definitely not bluffing. It is not feasible for developers to put that kind of money up front to build anything like what was here before with all retail space. A smart developer has to be one step ahead when determining where retail is best and I don't feel they are going to do that in Crestwood. So if they say they are closing the lot and putting it up for sale there is no bluffing going on. I am sorry to give you the bad news, but you want way too much in this mall and if I had the money to do it without assistance, I wouldn't touch it with a ten ft. pole. So to get them to do something with the property without a TIF, like you said, this developer ain't stupid and that's why hardly anyone wanted to touch our mall. You see, we ain't the "big cheese" anymore. So bluff away I say!
6.09 Tom I did.
City of Crestwood has been contacted in writing to respond to complaints about sunshine laws violations.
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