Who told Centrum Crestwood would pony up a TIF for the Mall project?
http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-Opinions-i-2013-07-24-267997.112112-Who-told-Centrum-officials-city-supported-TIF-for-mall.html
In yet another brilliant editorial by Mr. Mike Anthony the question was raised, "Who told Centrum officials that the City would support the Mall ?"
Indeed Mr. Anthony, who did it, and better yet why did they do it ? I wonder if we were able to follow the money here who, and or what would be at the end of this dingy rainbow ?
Please read the editorial above and then tell us who in this City thought himself / Herself so important that they decided to circumvent the Board and give special instructions to Centrum on behalf of Crestwood.
There are but two conclusions here, and they being that someone is incorrect about the insurances from ? Or they were given same by a person, or persons not qualified to give them, Which is it?
Either way, this is yet but another reason to fully vet the so called "deal" (take it or leave it) given to us by Centrum properties! Despite the prayer groups, so called "protesters," and the media ploy's WE still live here, so lets ALL make darn sure our Alderman are doing the homework required to keep Crestwood a winner.
As was stated by Mr. Anthony, at least four of them are, the remainder, well ?
Tom Ford
NO. 2017
posted by Crestwood Independent at 06:39
82 Comments:
my feeling is that just because it was stated by the Centrum guy doesn't mean it was said to him.
Looks more to me like Mr. Mike Anthony just need to write something for the weekly rag. No smoking gun folks.
It's a moot point. With now 5 aldermen plus the mamyor against the plan, look for Centrum to officially withdraw their proposal in two weeks, subdivide the land, and put up the "for sale signs."
10:21 AM Blogger: I pray that is so!
Tom Ford
Please pray that we don't get a tax increase, in lieu of redevelopment.
The guy from Centrum said he wasn't going to put up for sale signs. He said he would sell the Watson/sappington corner to CVS, and the rest he would donate to non-profits and churches. Other than CVS, there will be no tax revenue generated after that.
I hope who ever is next to deal with Centrum first gets an environmental study of the property before moving one inch forward!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
For all of you curmudgeons and Centrum bashers, keep in mind that it's sometimes better to deal with the devil you know than the one you don't. There may be some very unexpected/unwanted changes at the former mall property coming up. I can think of worse things then an entertainment complex--Section 8 housing for one.
People will probably look back one day at this group of Aldermen and Mayor Schlink and wonder how they managed to muck up such a good opportunity. Probably how St. Louis felt after Disney World took root in Florida.
And I think it's a given that higher property taxes will be sought sometime in the very near future.
How can you be sure you know the devil?
Barket claimed in a public on the record meeting that he had meet with the Lindbergh School District and they were ok with his proposed request for public assisted finances. Turns out that upon further review, that was not the truth per Mr. Simpson of the LSD. As was brought out at the last BOA meeting by a Professor who read Simpsons letter to the BOA, they had no meeting and there fore did not give their seal OF APPROVAL THAT BARKET CLAIMED.
Of course with all the noise the Centrum supporters were making, you may not have been able to hear what was said.
2:17 PM BLOGGER:SOrry but no personal insults unless you sign your name
Tom Ford
2:44 PM BLOGGER: If you look in the rear view mirror now you will see Centrum heading for the exit which is where they planned to go all along!
Tom Ford
6:59 pm that's where you wanted them to go in the first place isn't it. To the exit. You should be happy that your dream is coming true. Let's see what happens when they leave. If I were Centrum, I wouldn't want to deal with all you naysayers anymore. You all live in a fantasy world to think anyone will touch that property after the massacre you gave them.
7;32 PM BLOGGER:I for one coulden't be happier if they do as then we will get a chance to see what is available from the NEW owner.
Tom Ford
Link to Breaking news!!
http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-Impact-News-i-2013-07-24-268050.112112-Breaking-news-Longtime-Crestwood-planning-consultant-withdraws-proposal.html
I for one coulden't be happier if they do as then we will get a chance to see what is available from the NEW owner
As stated above, the Centrum guy said there won't be one. He will sell the corner to CVS, and give the rest away to churches and non-profits. That will be bad for us, because it will generate NOTHING for Crestwood. What new owner will there be if they give away most of the property? Have you heard something new?
Is it true that Paul Duchild is Jeff Schlink's boss at Edward Jones? If that is in fact true then I would hope that's not why the mayor chose not to break the tie on the redevelopment plan
12:04 AM Blogger: Wrong, not so my friend, look up the manning table at Edward Jones (Google it.)
The Mayor, I am sure chose not to break the tie for reasons we don't know. However, knowing him as I believe I do, you can rest assured that it was for the good of Crestwood.
Tom Ford
7:16 am that's because the mayor saw things your way. Had he voted to not break the tie, we can only imagine what you would have said. Has nothing to do with "the good of Crestwood".
Mr. Schlink and Mr. Duchild both work in the same department (compliance). Not sure who is the boss, or if they are equals, or how closely they work with one another.
10:40 am - that is good to know; sounds like duplicity to me and sounds like one never disagrees with the other. That is the most interesting news I have heard to this day. It all makes sense now plus Mr. Duchild will always carry out any orders his wife gives him. Whatever she says goes! Now it is all coming together. Soon our property will be worth 1.00. Wonder how many people knew that Schlink and Duchild worked in the same department when running for office. Sounds like a few things were left out of the information.
1:16 PM, July 26, 2013
This all started when Roy Robinson made promises to Centrum that he had no legal authority or power to make in order to get Centrum to buy the mall property.
That is the claim Centrum is making.
When Roy made that promise, neither Schlink or Duchild held an elected office. The fact that this has been brought up as an issue and the fact that Alderman Duchild's wife was brought up again says it all for me.
The issue of the same employer brought up in the election is odd, cause it makes me wonder who is doing deep research on them now? Who befitted the last time there was deep research done, Mary Stadter did. Who has she supported ever step and turn of the way? Centrum profits over people.
Who showed up at the 7.9.13 works session? Roy Who did Roy make the promise to? Centrum
We now have the introduction of the Chicgao way of doing politics. Dig up dirt of those who oppose you, smear the family's of those who disagree with you, hint at illegal actions on those you can find no dirt on, get elected those who will return the favor once in office.
All of this because Roy Robinson made a promise he shouldn't have and could not keep.
Thanks Roy for bring the Chicago Wat to little ole Crestwood. Hope it was worth your 6 years in office.
@3:32 pm
Agree with you that it is inappropriate to use personal attacks, especially on family members, in the context of debating an economic issue. The comments on the Patch were not indicative of the vast majority of the people in favor of the development. Both sides have some people who have taken this thing a little too personally and need to take a deep breath.
I hope the irony is not lost on you that you use the very tactic you claim to despise by smearing Roy Robinson's name, when I have not seen any confirmation that he is the one who made the "promise" to Centrum that has been widely reported in Sol's email to the Mayor.
5:09 PM, July 26, 2013
Well, 6 years ago who would "city officials" been?
Who for the years after Centrum bought the Mall almost monthly while in office made statements about great things were coming soon from the mall and its new owners? Who would be in monthly contact with Centrum?
I read the story in the Times today reference the church group sponsoring the " protest."
So liberals, what ever ended to the separation of church and state you love to speak of?
Also, is this th best the move on crowd can muster, a "rent a group?"
Tom Fordr
Well explain to us why there was so much turmoil made about secret meetings being held by some boa members, etc. etc which was supposedly wrong, outrageous, etc. But you don't feel the same about any discussions that could be going on with Mr. Duchild and Mayor Schlink as they WORK TOGETHER? Plus Add a third party in the mix including Mrs. D. who is also going to express what wants which is no TIF, etc. So Therefore, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that perhaps with the mayor, Alderman D and Mrs. Duchild plus three more aldermen they could have decided together to nix the developer in a private meeting or separate discussions excluding the other members of the board? Thus the 4/4 tie with the mayor breaking the tie. Or would that never happen. The same people keep making the vote 4/4. So what is so different if several aldermen get together and discuss the Mall that do not agree with the other four. There is a possibility that the 4/4 tie was a calculated effort on the part of city officials thereby the pot calling the kettle black when they could be having separate meetings and doing the same thing. We all might just be victims of a very bad situation whereby things are being set up behind our backs. Or are you saying the 4 against the development/tif could not have set up a calculated secret plan before the boa meeting nixing any chance of a concurrence of the board and mayor? I think having the mayor and Alderman D working with each other at their jobs everyday could be very significant.
"The City of Crestwood actively encourages economic development and has recently approved developments utilizing tools such as TIF, CID and TDD."
Time to update the website I guess...
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/residential/
The mall which was the Anchor of Crestwood has seemed to have lived up to it's name. ...bring on the taxes and Cuts...!
@ 3:32:
"This all started when Roy Robinson made promises to Centrum that he had no legal authority or power to make in order to get Centrum to buy the mall property"
Tell us how you know what Roy Robinson said to them and when.
"But you don't feel the same about any discussions that could be going on with Mr. Duchild and Mayor Schlink as they WORK TOGETHER?"
Nope not at all, because in your rush to hang every one who does not support Bigger Profits for Centrum over what is best for the people of Crestwood, your overlooking just a few things.
1. Discussion (if there were any) is between one Alderman and one Mayor. That does not come near to violation of Sunshine Laws, like 4 Aldermen meeting at Starbucks does. How do you feel about two Alderman attending the same church, or driving the same kind of car, of shopping at the same store, or being the same height. Have these keep you awake at night worrying about possible conspiracy?
2. Mrs. "D" believe this or not, is a constituent of both the Mayor and her husband!! She is not elected, she can talk to whom ever she wants, including, and I know this upsets you, her husband. About anything. Anytime she wants. And, if she wants to she can put a yard sign in her front yard supporting her husband and the Mayor, and, she can even vote for her husband!! Unless you want to start a war on the familys of elected Crestwood officials
3. Mrs. Wallach supported the Centrum proposal and is married to Alderman Wallach, should we have the same concerns about that as you want us to have about Mr. and Mrs. Duchild? After all Alderman Wallach also supported Profits for Centrum group.
4. 4 Alderman did decided to "nix the developer" but it was not done in private meetings like the Bigger Profits for Centrum SB4 held, but in the meetings held
before the public according to the law.
5. poster 8:03 PM, July 26, 2013 your stating "I think" is as about possible as Roy Robinson NOT being one of the Crestwood Officials that promised Centrum more profits with a TIF. Please, you give your self way too much credit.
6. poster 8:03 PM, July 26, 2013, do you believe that 9-11 was an inside job, that there was a shooter on the "grassy knoll" in Dallas on Nov. 22 1963, that Big Foot is real, that black helicopters really did fly around Ross Perot's house, that man is really causing global warming? Just asking.
Just spreading the rumors in the Centum supported drive to have the current Mayor defeated in the April 2014 election. It's the classic Chicago election way, no dirt, make it up. Question, will Roy, or Debra or Mary or Greg or Mimi run against him?
8:03 PM Blogger: "Well explain to us why there was so much turmoil made about secret meetings being held by some boa members, etc. etc"
You just did, IT WAS A SECRET MEETING, well done, you saved me time and band width.!
Tom Ford
Tell us how you know what Roy Robinson said to them and when.
Here's the plan Roy is on record to claiming he never lied. Let's ask him for the record who the two Crestwood Public Officials were that made the 100% Crestwood support for TIF to Centrum. Or just the names of the Officials.
Now if Roy says he was there but no one made that promise, then Centrum must be lying. If Roy says there was no meeting, then Centrum must be lying.
Whose word you going to take, Roy's or Centrum's?
If, then, if he says, must be...
So, essentially you have nothing but guesswork and conjecture. You're flinging accusations around, but you not one shred of proof to back up your claim. Okay, at least I'm clear on that.
It's just like some people to blame Roy Robinson for this issue because many people love to blame the people they never liked in the first place. And I can assure you that the blog administrator hated him as well as Mr. & Mrs. Duchild and this mayor. Don't know why and don't really care.
Tom,
Who runs MCU (Metropolitan Congregation United)?
Jim Sahaida is the president of the Metropolitan Congregrations united organization.
Go to this site for more informations.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Metropolitan-Congregations-United/332152582118
This is one opinion from the site.
Crestwood, Missouri, a suburb of St. Louis near where I live, has gone through some hard times.
At one point Crestwood was the home of Crestwood Plaza, "where the big stores are". Crestwood Plaza was such a popular shopping mall that one year, a week or two before Christmas, it took me over an hour to drive there in bumper-to-bumper traffic from only a few miles away, so many folk were eager to shop at the then very popular Crestwood Mall.
That was maybe ten years ago.
Today the mall is abandoned.
Little by little, over the past decade, every one of the hundreds of stores in the indoor climate controlled retail paradise closed up, from the big anchor stores to the smaller chains. No one's quite sure of the cause of this. One factor is the renovation of other malls in the St. Louis suburbs. Another is the declining demographic of Crestwood and its environs, an area which now consists mostly of seniors whose children and grandchildren live elsewhere.
The interior of Crestwood Mall
For a while, the mall's owners were renting out abandoned shops to locals who were either struggling theater troupes or craft stores. The rent for each shuttered unit was a token of perhaps $100 per month, which is not enough to enable the mall to stay open and maintained, but a local arts mecca suddenly existed and the mall was being visited again.
But since that economic arrangement could not last, the local tenants were evicted, and the mall now sits totally vacant, its parking lot empty and slowly weathering away.
A development group has expressed interest in tearing the mall down and building a new and improved retail / entertainment paradise, but the group is being stymied by local politics and by a Crestwood board of aldermen who are not willing to authorize the hiring of a planner, and are wary of the tax increment financing the mall's prospective developers are asking for.
***
So yesterday my family and I stepped out of St. Elizabeth of Hungary church in Crestwood to be greeted by a group distributing flyers regarding the situation at the mall. The group is Metropolitan Congregations United , an ecumenical association of Christians advocating for economic development in St. Louis neighborhoods.
The flyer urges folks to attend the next Crestwood Board of Aldermen meeting to pressure city hall to give the developers what they want, so that the mall can be rebuilt and Crestwood's tax base saved.
So it occurred to me - are Christians really so gullible as to advocate for Salvation by Means of a Shopping Mall? If this new mall ever gets subsidized by TIF financing and built, who will the tenants be? Local craft shops and theater troupes? No, overpriced out of town chains selling useless luxury items.
I understand that it's not economically viable for locals to pay only $100 per month rent on indoor retail space, but is the solution to that the corporate capitalist cave-in to the least Christian element in our economy - the artificial and unnecessary air conditioned affluence of chain store retail outlets?
If Metropolitan Congregations United really wants to help the citizens of Crestwood, then they should learn a bit about Distributism and the social encyclicals of the Catholic Church. A more local economy, based upon a greater distribution of independent mom and pop business owners, would find a way to make the old mall viable, without surrendering to the "we always get what we want" Mentality of our debt-based consumer culture.
But instead the local Christians are advocating for the very economic system that is both culturally and economically doomed.
4:43 PM BLOGGER: I have no idea, but is it out of Chicago by chance ?
Tom Ford
6:31 PM BLOGGER: Looks like the FIX is in over at the local "church." I wonder where the funding comes from to operate this? "Donations" perhaps ?
Tom Ford
not everything is a vast conspiracy rooted in Chicago, you know.
"Agree with you that it is inappropriate to use personal attacks, especially on family members, in the context of debating an economic issue. The comments on the Patch were not indicative of the vast majority of the people in favor of the development. Both sides have some people who have taken this thing a little too personally and need to take a deep breath.
5:09 PM, July 26, 2013"
Well said, blogger!
6:31 PM, July 28, 2013 and others -
please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of any prayer services for a TIF. Is this a first in Crestwood? Or anywhere?
"6. poster 8:03 PM, July 26, 2013, do you believe that 9-11 was an inside job, that there was a shooter on the "grassy knoll" in Dallas on Nov. 22 1963, that Big Foot is real, that black helicopters really did fly around Ross Perot's house, that man is really causing global warming? Just asking."
Big Foot is real. I used to date her.
Big Foot is real. I used to date her.
More information than I need, thank you.
2:51 PM, July 28, 2013
You don't trust Roy to tell us the truth if asked?
Why do YOU hate Roy so much?
12:42 AM, July 29, 2013
LOL!!!
A tax increase is real. Cuts at the local government level are real...let the games begin....
http://sunsethills-crestwood.patch.com/groups/business-news/p/crestwood-court-entertainment-complex-complex-successful-in-chicago
http://whatupcrestwood.tumblr.com/
Tom/others opposed to Centrum's development:
Do you disagree with PGAV's Memorandum/Analysis that a TIF is needed to redevelop the site?
If so, what facts/authority/expertise do you base your opinion on, if any?
It seems to me that a lot of the anti-TIF crowd just take the talking points that Rex Sinquefield & his Show-Me Institute provide, and run with them, and do not focus on the facts associated with this particular redevelopment site.
Why let the facts get in the way of ideology?
I don't understand Tom at all. He fights for this country in the trenches, and he watches how everyone hangs their flags so it is done properly out of respect for this Country. Then instead of upholding the constitution where we are not suppose to be a nation (divided), he name calls all those who are Dem. "liberals", and his wish is that they go to where fire and brimstone the Staple of the day every day. He may deny it but with every other word he expresses his true feelings and his contempt for whoever the "liberals" may be. So truth is stranger than fiction whereby he is "spitting" on the very constitution he holds so near and dear to his heart. He has to always use that word and he thrives on dividing us as people who are all in this world together. In truth if he had his way, he would extinguish every one of those bad, ugly people he calls "liberals". So if you think about it why should he be any different when fighting against a TIF. He doesn't want one and all those who do are, you guessed it, "liberals".
Stick to the subject Tom, fight fire with fire, and stop separating people. People who know anything about running a city, or running a 5 and dimestore are not all liberals. And if you want respect, you need to give a little respect to those who have a difference of opinion from your's. That's what this country is made up of and the constitution says so........
10:14 AM, July 30, 2013
Stop right there.
Both experts (Centrum and PGVA) note
major issue is environmental problem.
Centrum did their own study.
Centum wants the TIF money for cleaning up a problem they bought. How can a clean, empty, flat 50 acres produce sales tax to pay off the TIF Bonds? It cant.
Why did Centrum balk at agreeing to allow a FREE State study of their sight for environment problems?
Why should sales tax dollars be used to clean up a EPA problem, when there are other methods for payment available?
TIF is issued, bonds are sold, money from sale of bonds goes to Centrum, bonds are paid off with 50% of tax increase from improved property.
PGVA said Centrums proposal was very risky if it didn't have a Menard's.
Menards is not building any new stores. How can 6 restaurants and a grocery store pay off a TIF the size requested in 23 years?
Truth of the matter is Centrum only wanted the TIF so they would not have to spend any of their own $ to make the THEIR property safe, when there other ways of cleaning up a site(see Post Dispatch front page articles on Carter Carburetor)but would require Centrum to be responsible for the cost.
Centrum only wanted TIF to clean up their property so it could be resold, never planned on being around to develop anything. Their profit would come from the sale of a cleaned up property, not rent from business.
Why you say? Answer is in the form of a question, why would Centrum not agree to the free examination of their property by the state of MO? What do they know that they are hiding?
When Centrum tries to give away or subdivide this property, can the City force them to report the hazards they know are there to the public, and before the transaction?
Why are supporters of Centrum ignoring the FACTS that both Centrum and PGVA (experts) have stated? Why has Centrum said no to study of their property for harmful issues by a FREE State of MO study? Why did Centrum pull the plug as soon as City required the Study before any further movement towards development? What don't they want us to know?
Why should tax dollars be used to pay off the Centrum site clean up instead of Centrum being responsible for the haz material removal? Why should the tax payers be required to carry this load?
Remember readers, the FACT that the Centrum property has environmental issues is known because of statements made by the EXPERTS, CENTRUM AND PGVA!
"Why did Centrum balk at agreeing to allow a FREE State study of their sight for environment problems?"
Source?
"How can 6 restaurants and a grocery store pay off a TIF the size requested in 23 years?"
Good question for a planner to answer. TIF cannot be approved unless the plan is shown to be feasible.
"Why should tax dollars be used to pay off the Centrum site clean up instead of Centrum being responsible for the haz material removal? Why should the tax payers be required to carry this load?"
The environmental issues are little overblown likely. A little asbestos? That is in every old building that gets knocked down, and plenty of companies can remove it safely. It's not like the property's former use was a lead mine or a nuclear waste disposal site. A majority of the TIF money is not for environmental purposes, but demolition and site work, which PGAV says will require a TIF. If you disagree, please factually state why, and provide a source.
I am more confident of PGAV'S analysis and more am leery of the conclusions reached by the STDTB "planning firm" (Schlink-Trueblood-Duchild-Tsichlis-Boston).
12:26 PM, July 30, 2013
Source is PGV and Centrum themselves in what they have said in public meetings and in written reports to city.
PGVA (expert) Memo to City dated 11/7/2012 page one item one
"Not only will environmental issues be encountered, the utility corridors that were built when the mall was expanded in 1984 will present extraordinary cost to the new development".
Nuff said on that concern of poster.
"The environmental issues are little overblown likely. A little asbestos?" Poster, provide your source, how do you know that?
Define for all of us what a "little" asbestos is.. Explain how the area behind Sears automotive area where the old motor oil and anti-freeze was dumped is safe, there were not leaks of the used products there.
Tell us why you are more of an expert than PGVA is on these issues. Tell us why Centrum doesn't want a free study to be performed? If it's free and if study finds no issues, what does Centrum lose? Is the health of the citizens of Crestwood not as important to Mall owner and to you and other Centrum supporters as the profits Centrum can make? Why are Centrums profits more important to you than the well being of you fellow Crestwood citizens?
Again, the study is free, if there is nothing to worry about, that's what will be reported.
So when is there going to be some sort of meeting were the road forward will be outlined?
That's what leaders do...anybody know any?..
even sheeple baaa occasionally..
Or are we going to listen to whining and finger pointing at all levels for the next 10 years?
Angelo Gordon & Centrum bought a high-risk property. Their risk, not the city's. Keep in mind that Angelo Gordon, the majority owner with $13 billion in real estate assets, has a specific business model for this type of real estate purchase, and that model demands a higher rate of return than their other investments. Again, their stipulations, not the city's. Mr. Barket is already on record as saying that he does not need a TIF for this project - his words. He wants a TIF so that he can meet the ROI target established by Angelo Gordon.
Centrum came to the BOA with a concept. The aldermen were tasked with evaluating the information they were provided, whether from Centrum or PGAV. The aldermen were split on their conclusions regarding the viablility of the concept. In arriving at their conclusions, they have fulfilled their responsibility as aldermen with respect to this project. Both sides are resolute in their beliefs. Thus far, Mr. Barket has failed to win over those opposed to his concept not because they are right-wing conservatives (or whatever other label one wishes to use), but because Mr. Barket has not given them any reason to change their minds about the viability of his concept. I have no doubt that each alderman is doing what he/she believes is in the city's best interests, so there should be no cause for criticism. Mr. Barket took a huge gamble, and thus far, his gamble has failed. This does not translate into a failure for the city.
It is now the job of the free market to determine what happens with that private property. Angelo Gordon will do what it needs to do to minimize the financial impact of this gamble.
The city can and should pursue the free environmental analysis offered by the state. This would provide valuable, objective information that could be used to determine what is feasible for that site.
Martha Duchild
Most investors want a higher return in exchange for more risk. Even if TIF financing is approved, there is risk that this venture will fail, and Centrum/Angelo Gordon will be out 100 million (50 million cash, and liable on a 50 million construction Note).
"The aldermen were split on their conclusions regarding the viablility [sic] of the concept. In arriving at their conclusions, they have fulfilled their responsibility as aldermen with respect to this project."
Hogwash. The fact that some of the aldermen made up their minds in the pre-planning stage of this proposal is arrogance of the highest order.
"This does not translate into a failure for the city"
Remains to be seen. Things do not happen in a vacuum. Other business owners have been complaining about the lack of traffic on Watson Road for some time. What happens if more of them leave? Have you seen how many vacant storefronts are on Watson already? Even some of those that you would think would be opposed to the new development, such as the owners of Crestwood Bowl, have instead welcomed it because they can see the big picture. Have you ever noticed where Best Buys are located in the STL area? Around malls and other thriving retail locations (South County, West County, St. Peters, etc.). How long will Crestwood's Best Buy hold on?
"It is now the job of the free market to determine what happens with that private property."
Therein lies the ultimate difference between the idealists and the pragmatists. The free market does a great job picking winners and losers. Right now, Crestwood is losing. TIF is a way to stack the deck and generate a development that would not otherwise occur with pure free market activity. While Adam Smith may not approve, he doesn't have to figure out how to balance Crestwood's budget, keep adequate police and fire protection, maintain the streets, retain qualified employees, and keep the rest of the business base along Watson growing (or at least stable and not contracting).
But I guess we'll just see what the free market brings us. For some reason, I bet it won't be as good as Centrum's proposal.
Will the last person to leave please close the door.
Ah.. the sweet smell of Karma.
Link of the day:
5:32 PM Blogger: Glad to do it but, be advised that I have heard the doom and gloom sayers for this and that for 44 years, and we're still here !
Tom Ford
Tom, so what did you think about the link? Pretty good satire!
Tom, we are still here I agree but not looking as good as we have in the past. Kinda like humans. Look good when you are young and not so much when you get older.
Drove by the old Northwest Plaza today on the way back from the airport. It is all almost torn down. According to Wikipedia, they have a Menards and bunch of other stuff going in.
How on earth could they possibly be that far along and our mall is going to be given away to not-for-profits?????????????????
Maybe the Crestwood Board needs to take a trip up Lindbergh and find out what they did because they clearly seem to know what they are doing.
3:38 PM, August 01, 2013
Did you find out how much tax assistance and for how long the new and improved NW Plaza is going to cost St.Ann?
3:38 PM Blogger: Not the BOA'S fault here, NWP is right off the interstate, and next to hotels, ergo quicker movement.
Centrum knows they made a mistake and now they want us to pay for it !
The part of the Board that is not fueled by emotions is doing the right thing.
Tom Ford
"Centrum knows they made a mistake and now they want us to pay for it !"
I'm sure Centrum does view their decision to purchase the mall as a mistake now, based on the ineptness of the BOA. Promise or no promise on the TIF (and if even if there was a promise, Mike Anthony is spot on that Centrum understands the game and realizes that a promise doesn't mean much in this context), I'm sure Centrum made the calculated decision that Crestwood would surely not be foolish enough to sink the proposed development, and would be willing to partner up for a TIF development, given the site's central location, and importance to Crestwood.
They just didn't realize they were dealing with a bunch of amateurs on the BOA, so now Centrum and Crestwood get to suffer together.
Crestwood's mall's redevelopment, had it occurred, would have been leaps and bounds more successful than that of Northwest Plaza. I'll take the demographics/household income of Crestwood, Webster, Kirkwood, Sunset Hills, Oakland, south county etc. over St. Ann, Hazelwood, Woodson Terrace, Breckenridge Hills, etc. any day of the week.
3:38 PM, August 01, 2013 Blogger... please tell me how a TIF "Costs" a city anything? Do they have to put existing money into it? Please, educate me with your expert knowledge on TIF's.
5:37 PM, August 01, 2013 Blogger.... Would of, could of, should of. Looks like Northwest Plaza did and Crestwood didn't.
What is Plan B Mr. Mayor and BOA?
Oh brother, are the Centrum Kool Aid drinkers out in force tonight.
You assume the Centrum plan (use the TIF to remove haz mat and tear the buildings down) will produce tax dollars when the property is cleared and there is nothing on it.
PGAV (an expert, remember?) "our initial reaction is that Centrum's cost estimate for demo and site preparation are not out of line" Then PGAV said "if after $33 million in TIF (PGAV'S words) Crestwood has a level piece of land and nothing else, they should consider that a home run"!
So the experts have said the demo and site prep will take all the TIF Centrum has asked for and will not result in one shovel being turned, one nailed board, not one dollar of increased sales tax dollars for a proposal that the experts (PGAV) said is risky.
I can only guess what will happen then but would you be surprised if Centrum then sold their flat, clean field that was paid for by a TIF to a new Developer with a new Proposal that per the experts and supporters of Centrum say would need a TIF to build (after all every body knows the TIF is the only way to get developers to build in Crestwood).
So how long do you think do you think it would take to pay off two TIF's? Let's see, a TIF is paid for with 50% of the increased taxes received from the development, so Centrums 50% and then the 2nd developer gets 50% of the increase and how much does that leave Crestwood?
50% + 50% = 0% for Crestwood
@10:36
Your misunderstanding of TIF is staggering. What is sad is that so many people share your conspiracy theory of how this could play out, including apparently some of the aldermen.
TIF is not some pot of gold that the developer can just take and walk away from, or can just use to level the site and walk away from.
They will have to put up the cash up front for the demo AND the construction, and then once the construction is done, bonds can be issued, which are then paid back with 50% of the sales taxes and 100% of the increased property taxes.
How do you think bonds would be issued that would repay Centrum back for demo/site work if they didn't build anything? Answer: they wouldn't.
Maybe the development will succeed, maybe it wouldn't, but what won't happen is that nothing will get built.
Crestwood residents see a TIF as a payment to some 'vast Commercial corporation' that will take all their money away and leave them with nothing.. wait a minute...
There is a reason Mr. Barket refused to agree to an intergovernmental cooperation agreement that would have included a non-transferable TIF.
Martha Duchild
Martha,
There you go again, confusing the pro Centrum Profits crowd with logic.
Keep it up!
Martha,
So you are saying the BOA and Centrum got to the point where they were negotiating specific terms of a Redevelopment Agreement without a planner? That's nice to know the BOA thinks so highly of themselves.
Anyway, the posts above have to do with whether Centrum can just knock the mall down, and "run away with the money" without building anything. Fact: They can't. What you are saying is that Centrum wouldn't agree to a term where they couldn't sell the property once it is built until the TIF is paid off. That is an entirely different issue. Some developers are better builders than managers of an ongoing site. Maybe Centrum is one of them?
Once again, there is a question about the potential success of the project once it is up and running, but something will get built on the site, and to say otherwise (not you but others) is uninformed and misleading.
So the choices are ( or where) pay Centrum 30 million via a tif to clear the old Mall...or wait until the old mall decays
and defaults on taxes and then pay 30 million to clear it..
It all makes sense now. Thank you BOA.
@ 8:57:
There is yet one more choice. We can sit on our thumbs and watch Centrum parcel off the property to non profits and churches, so that we get NOTHING in tax revenue.
To 11:19 AM
You are reading things into my post that simply aren't there. During one of Mr. Barket's appearances before the board, he was asked whether he would sign a contract that prohibited the use of eminent domain, and he responded in the negative. He was also asked at that time whether he would agree to a contract that stipulated that the TIF would be non-transferable, and he responded in the negative. I'm not sure why you think this line of questioning is indicative of a board that thinks so highly of itself.
Regarding the disposal of the property once a TIF (that is transferable) is approved, Centrum
could do whatever it wanted: flip it right away, tear down the property and get it "pad ready" and sell it, build some of it and sell it, build some of it and get some tenants and sell it, etc. All that matters to Centrum is that they fulfill the 10% ROI required by Angelo Gordon.
Read Angelo Gordon's website; their strategy for this type of property is clear, and their goal is to sell the property as soon as they can get the return they need.
Look at the examples they provide, most are sold within 5-10 years.
This is a business strategy, and if the city is going to make an informed decision, it needs to be aware of what the property owner's commitment is.
Martha Duchild
3:38 PM Blogger: Please see the following.
http://showmeinstitute.org/publications/video/corporate-welfare/1003-the-tax-subsidy-that-wasnt.html
Tom Ford
Martha, your lack of knowledge of how TIF works is staggering. The City would enter into an agreement, called a Redevelopment Agreement, with Centrum that spells out exactly what Centrum has to deliver. If they don't deliver, the City yanks the TIF. Centrum just can't take the TIF and clear the property and sell it and keep the TIF. If they sell it, their successors must complete the project or the City yanks the TIF
Where did I say Centrum could sell the property and keep the TIF?
Martha Duchild
10:37 AM Blogger: YOU were asked a question, you do have an answer, no ?
Tom Ford
From Martha's 12:53 AM, August 03, 2013 Post "Regarding the disposal of the property once a TIF (that is transferable) is approved, Centrum could do whatever it wanted: flip it right away, tear down the property and get it "pad ready" and sell it, build some of it..."
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