"The tax subsitity that wasen't," showmeinstitute.org.
http://showmeinstitute.org/publications/video/corporate-welfare/1003-the-tax-subsidy-that-wasnt.html
For those of you who may have heard the Gentlemen from this Missouri think tank on KMOX yesterday morning here is the full site. For those who didn't hear the policy of this group, please copy, paste into your browser and be prepared to learn about TIF'S.
For those who are not aware of this group they seem to be completely middle of the road with all the facts to back them up. Yesterday they opined that it was a good thing that Crestwood is not granting the TIF to Centrum, and they backed it up with reason and fact's.
I am sure that the Centrum believers will denigrate this group as people who have no idea what is good for Crestwood (as if Centrum does,) however look at the story on Olivette before you just dismiss this out of hand.
The times reported Friday that PGAV has withdrawn their bid as planners for the site, but to me that's a good thing as I don't want a planner who suggests the public should be left out of the discussions !
Now for once, please leave the emotions out of this, put the cheer leader outfit's in the closet and really look at this from the standpoint of Crestwood's future. Will that property make it under the current proposal, will it be successful enough to pay off the TIF, will Lindbergh School's need another tax hike to offset the loss of the TIF?
These are all questions you can find answers to by reading this site, and reviewing the project minus the emotions that seem so prevalent here.
Your turn.........
Tom Ford
NO. 2018
For those of you who may have heard the Gentlemen from this Missouri think tank on KMOX yesterday morning here is the full site. For those who didn't hear the policy of this group, please copy, paste into your browser and be prepared to learn about TIF'S.
For those who are not aware of this group they seem to be completely middle of the road with all the facts to back them up. Yesterday they opined that it was a good thing that Crestwood is not granting the TIF to Centrum, and they backed it up with reason and fact's.
I am sure that the Centrum believers will denigrate this group as people who have no idea what is good for Crestwood (as if Centrum does,) however look at the story on Olivette before you just dismiss this out of hand.
The times reported Friday that PGAV has withdrawn their bid as planners for the site, but to me that's a good thing as I don't want a planner who suggests the public should be left out of the discussions !
Now for once, please leave the emotions out of this, put the cheer leader outfit's in the closet and really look at this from the standpoint of Crestwood's future. Will that property make it under the current proposal, will it be successful enough to pay off the TIF, will Lindbergh School's need another tax hike to offset the loss of the TIF?
These are all questions you can find answers to by reading this site, and reviewing the project minus the emotions that seem so prevalent here.
Your turn.........
Tom Ford
NO. 2018
posted by Crestwood Independent at 06:07
155 Comments:
Tom... Please explain the "loss" that the Lindbergh Schools would have under a TIF. TIF FREEZES the property tax that they get. Right now the school district, Crestwood and all other taxing districts will loose money when the mall is reassessed next year and the assessor takes into account that it is closed and lower their value.
10:25 PM Blogger: Simple, if the developer get's 50% and Crestwood get's 50% of THE TIF TAX MONEY for 23 years, what is left for the school district?
Tom Ford
A group that Rex Sinquefield is the President of is not "middle of the road".
To answer your questions:
Q: Will that property make it under the current proposal?
A: Unknown. Some people think so, others think not. Having a professional planner evaluate the concept fully would be prudente.
Q: Will it be successful enough to pay off the TIF?
A: Unknown. See above for need to hire planner. TIF cannot be approved unless all costs to be reimbursed will be paid back within 23 years. If the project comes up short, the bondholders lose out, not the city.
Q: Will Lindbergh School's need another tax hike to offset the loss of the TIF?
A: Question doesn't really make sense, as addressed by 10:23 pm blogger. Lindbergh will be seeking a tax increase anyway because of exploding enrollment, and the need to build another elementary school, hire more teachers, etc. If the TIF is approved Lindbergh's share of the property taxes is frozen for the next 15 years or so while the TIF is paid off. If nothing happens with the development, Lindbergh's share of the property taxes will likely stay roughly the same--the land might go up, but the buildings will continue to fall in value. Even if Centrum developed the property without TIF, and Lindbergh captured the full amount of the increase in property value via increased property taxes immediately, Lindbergh would probably still need to seek a tax increase, albeit a smaller one.
Q: Simple, if the developer get's 50% and Crestwood get's 50% of THE TIF TAX MONEY for 23 years, what is left for the school district?
A: You are comparing apples to oranges. The developer and the city split the sales taxes (for the most part) 50/50. The school district relies on the property taxes. In a controversial TIF (like this one), the developer can agree to pay the school district a certain amount extra each year above and beyond the frozen property taxes due. All things that would have been up for discussion had the BOA not prematurely killed this deal before vetting anything.
The Olivette TIF was going to involve knocking down a bunch of homes to build retail. And, if you read the RFT article cited in the Show me Institute article, the developer/city failed to comply with the requirements of the TIF statute. Even then, the Institute claims the "free market" beat the proposed TIF because there is a Chevy's and a CVS, and sales taxes went up. If you look at the proposed development plan, the Chevy's was already there, so that's not really an improvement. CVS moved in because there is a Walgreen's nearby, and they like to compete head to head. And the sales taxes did not appear to be adjusted for inflation, which obviously allows the group to skew the data to suit its ends. Without knowing more about Olivette, it's hard to say if they are better off now, or if they would have been better off trying to create a retail center in the 1990s before Brentwood and other nearby municipalities became so built up with retail.
Either way, the Olivette matter is much different than a proposal involving knocking down a mall and reworking the site. Because no two projects are alike, each TIF project should be looked at on its own merits. If anyone is 100% for TIF in all cases, or 100% against TIF in all cases, they should have their head examined.
11:50 PM Blogger: Do YOU really think that Centrum will agree to pay the school district anything ?
Come now !
Tom Ford
12:00 AM Blogger: I think you're up way past your bedtime.
You examine the TIF any way you want, if the rest of us have looked at it and decided we don't want it, or do want it, that's our decision, not yours !
Tom Ford
I wondered how long it would take for you to post the Show Me Institute's victory/ mall defeat announcement and join-in on the high fiving. Even Rex suggests a cut in services and tax increase. He also seems to be in favor of Crestwood as a pool-city in the County Tax distribution. A cut in services recommendation from him makes sense, but a suggestion of a tax increase and the perpetuation of sales tax pool cities? Funny how, he'll choose those two evils over a TIF. But, what's it matter to him, he doesn't live in Crestwood.
@6:59 am
If they thought they could get the school district's blessing in front of the TIF commission, yes, as it would make good business sense. If you were at the town hall meeting at Whitecliff, Sol insinuated that he expected to come to an understanding with Lindbergh.
@7:03
I bet if you did a poll of the citizenry, you would find 2/3 support. Just because the Aldermen are split 4/4 doesn't mean the community isn't behind the project or the concept of using TIF.
@9:15 am
Good points.
It is time to stand up and ask the developers to go to a bank like the rest of us for their loans.
Let's make the developers accountable for the spending by getting a real "bank loan".
Why is a developer allow to spend their TIF money without any oversight?
Why is a developer allowed to ask for more TIF money after they start their project?
Would a bank allow this "blank check" policy?
We need to end these TIF "entitlements" that are bankrupting our cities and our counties. Check out what is happening in other States.
Why shall a resident pay 3x's the value of their real estate taxes when a developer pays only .01% on prime commercial property?
By the way, have you seen how the developers spend their TIF monies?
Crestwood is in the center of the St. Louis County and still holds a prime value on their homes and commercial property.
"Crestwood is in the center of the St. Louis County and still holds a prime value on their homes and commercial property."
Next time you are driving on Watson, start at the city limit by the plaza with Crestwood jewelry (vacancy), and drive along until you get to the old Value City plaza (vacancies), and count the number of "For Lease" and "For Sale" signs on both sides of the street. I think you would reevaluate your sentiments with respect to the current desirability of Crestwood commercial real estate.
The shame about TIF abuses in the past is that when a project like this comes along that is in genuine need of TIF, no one wants to grant one given the excesses of the past (West County mall, Chesterfield valley, et al.).
Any one know what plan "B" is or wish to propose one so we can move on and get the multi acre boat anchor replaced? ( the Mall not the Mayor)..
7:13 AM Blogger: For Centrum there is no plan "B," Saul himself stated that this was it.
The problem for Centrum (and us) is that they have NO tenants willing to sign a prospectus much less a lease, so until they do, let them pay the interest on the property or sell it !
Anchor you say, heck they didn't even have a bobber the last time I looked.
Tom Ford
Centrum can default and take the write off and walk away...meanwhile Crestwood can't walk away. The way the economy is they are in no hurry...to do anything they don't want to.
7:38 am Tom! How do you expect tenants to sign a prospectus/lease when City of Crestwood leaders keep pushing everybody around that have invested time and money into this Mall issue; We have nothing to show them. BUT thanks to the negativity shown by our leaders, what are they suppose to show a potential tenant. It isn't totally Centrum's executives fault when Crestwood votes everything down. We have nothing to show potential tenants.Nadda! And that's right down your alley isn't it. More bickering, more arguing, and you get excited about that, don't you! Just like your insatiable appetite for party politics.
You want to blame everything on Centrum and "shame on" PGAV. You stand there so darn smug about not wanting a TIF, in the meantime like it has already been written, propaganda is everywhere and people are speaking against the TIF and the Mall owners as if they are knowledgeable when all they are doing is listening to mostly the propagandizing that mushrooms into a bunch of nonsense and the mushrooms keep getting bigger and bigger.
Well get your coloring book and crayons out nimrods and find out how a TIF really works before you open you big mouths and speak with forked tongue. I will be the first one to tell you that as far as a TIF goes, I would be willing to go to a town hall meeting and have someone that knows what they are saying is true - gets up with and a huge visual aid as big as a huge television screen and explains all the in's and out's. Aren't you tired of seeing that eye sore everytime you go down Watson Road.
This is getting really stupid.
No Tenants? Of course not. Would you sign up for a business in a place where people are not informed and the Crestwood BOA and Mayor sit on the dais like a deer in headlights and can't agree on anything. They get paid every month so why do they not do their homework. Call the owners, make calls to John B of PGAV. Good Lord if anyone can tell you about redevelopment he can. He has been around for a longtime with Crestwood. These people seem like they have done everything to help us. But Oh Boy - this is Crestwood - big deal.
Everybody isn't out to get us people! Barket is ready to sit down and talk but is the Mayor listening? He wants no media around! Well then call Mr. Barket and get going. We have wasted more time on this - it is just sickening!
"Barket is ready to sit down and talk but is the Mayor listening?"
3:59 PM, August 06, 2013
How do you know that poster? The last I heard was Barket had withdrawn his proposal and was walking away? Did I miss something in the news?
3:59 PM BLOGGER: Is true that you have a private line to Centrum ?
If you do , tell your buddy no go for me as I see no reason for a TIF to nowhere!
PS: Just post and stop trying to be cute, it sn''t. Working, and I have the "kill switch!"
Tom Ford
4:21 pm Read front page of Suncrest Call. 5:54 PM no private line to Centrum. Not trying to be cute - I am just angry with all the negativity and I know all about your "kill switch" and I know it isn't a threat - it is a promise!
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/property-tax-rate-dwindling-in-chesterfield/article_a28ee8cf-11d8-5b7b-ad17-80a332a63f3a.html
This is what happens when you have a strong retail and commercial base--you get less property taxes.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/kirkwood-shares-support-concerns-about-transfers/article_29836fbd-c333-59a5-ab71-d836165d77e3.html
In addition to being an anti-TIF zealot, Rex Sinquefiled also likes to meddle in local school districts:
"Based on Mehlville’s enrollment drop, the Children’s Education Alliance of Missouri believes there is room. The group, which has backing from billionaire investor Rex Sinquefield, also is assessing whether Kirkwood could take more students. Mehlville Superintendent Eric Knost said they were working with their attorneys to respond, but maintained that they’ve made every effort to place transfers without compromising the education of any student in the district."
Good to know school starts next week, Mehlville added hundreds of students on short notice, and now because they haven't overcrowded their classrooms, they are facing lawsuits from a billionaire. Taxpayer money will not have to go to fund lawyers to defend these frivolous suits. Ridiculous.
11:46 PM Blogger: Taxpayer money may well have to go to fund lawyers defending the Mehlville / Kirkwood school districts, even more ridiculous !
Tom Ford
Does this mean that Sol Burket lied to the City when he said he was pulling the plug on his proposal?
That would seem to be the case if he is now claiming a willingness to talk.
To talk about what? The proposal that he said he pulled? What is the truth?
And you want to give this person $33,000,000 in tax assistance?
@8:29 am
I think the statement in his private email to the mayor was along the lines of "consider the proposal withdrawn if you don't vote on a planner tonight".
Because the scope was changed for the planner and a vote was taken, it would seem the proposal is not yet withdrawn?
He has not publicly made any statements withdrawing the proposal, unlike the planner PGAV who very publicly stated their withdrawal (based on the ineptness of the BOA).
and so, as I have stated before, this leaves us...nowhere. The fact of the matter is the owner of the mall has or will withdraw the proposal to redevelop it. That leaves us with.....ZIPPO. We have a decaying, empty eyesore sitting there, with no end in sight about how it will get resolved. If he parcels it off the non-profits, we get no tax money for that. If he lets it sit, we get next to nothing in tax money. If he levels it and leaves a vacant lot, we get next to nothing. There is no plan B, the board can't agree on which end is up or any other subject known to man(this group would fight over where the bathroom is), so...where does that leave us?? We, as a city, are screwed as far as the mall goes. If no one has a an alternative idea, and no one will allow the redevelopment to move forward, then we are, in a nutshell, out of luck. Someone, somewhere, at some point HAS to break this lunacy loose and allow something, ANYTHING to happen in that space.
This blame game can go on forever and I have no idea why things got out of hand on this issue.
For years, there was never a board of aldermen and a mayor who could not get serious issues taken care of. A decision was always made. And further, what's going on with the city administrator. Isn't he suppose to be the support system to the mayor and board? Any decision cannot be as bad as making no decision with the Mall. I look at it and....it's just sitting there! It's just like everything else - united we stand and divided we fall! This indecisiveness of the Mayor and board is enough to make a person feel ill, and sick and tired. What can we expect? I never ever thought that Crestwood officials would not be connected enough that they could not make a decision as big as this one.
And so, we are looking forward to more of the same - nothing. The commander of the ship should be giving directions and having a plan and he isn't doing anything but dragging his feet.
But somebody needs to do something soon. If you listen to Tom, he will drag you into the trenches and force you to stay there forever because he doesn't want a TIF. So he doesn't care if we do nothing until hell freezes over. That goes for others as well, who don't know a thing about what a TIF is or isn't. But don't want one.
Other cities have done this so what's up. Many people are afraid to go forward - so what that means is - we are going backwards because "time" marches on and you either keep up with it, or it will slowly knock the life (what little is left) out of this town!
2:08 PM, August 07, 2013
"There is no plan B"
There were, Centrum rejected them.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. After reading this batch of comments I see nothing but negative attitude because you cannot have your way. Typical liberal approach. Centrum had multiple opportunities to sell his idea. His refusal to listen to the reasons for no accounts for his failure to sell the plan. Poor salesman. Not BAD BOA. The BOA seems to be working as designed. Represents the attitude of the people. Not everyone was impressed with the proposal as you would want this audience to think.
"Typical liberal approach."
This is a prime example of why NOTHING is getting done with the mall. Hear something you don't like? Call names and act like you're an 8 year old on the playground.
"Not everyone was impressed with the proposal as you would want this audience to think."
Then what should be done to move? Even a small, single step forward beats sitting on our thumbs shouting "NO" at every thing and every one who brings up ideas.
"Centrum had multiple opportunities to sell his idea. His refusal to listen to the reasons for no accounts for his failure to sell the plan."
With the last term's board, you had the likes of Jerry Miguel and Bob Deutschman telling Centrum to come back with a plan without a TIF, even though the planner told everyone there was no way on God's green earth that the property would get developed without a TIF. When that is why the board is telling you no, what are you supposed to do? Hard to reason with people so dug in. As for the current board, their reasons for saying no seem to shift with the wind--for a couple of them, it seems to be a personal dislike of the concept (i.e. nothing in the development that they have on Delmar) to a political aversion to TIF regardless of the circumstances.
It will be interesting to see what the wake-up call will be. A proposed 2014 budget horribly out of balance? More employee cuts? A proposed property tax increase? More vacancies along Watson Road?
Olive branches of compromise where extended multiple times by the board and rejected immediately by Centrum.
How is BOA supposed to negotiate when the reply is no and a counter is not offered?
@6:10 a.m.
If the BOA offered a serious counteroffer to Centrum's proposal, I would feel much differently. Perhaps those were offered behind closed doors, but I'm not aware of one that has been publicly reported, other than the one where Centrum did lower their CID/TDD request after the BOA asked.
The other "counteroffers" floated by the board such as asking for an ill-advised residential component were rambling from individual aldermen, and not a formal counteroffer extended by the BOA as a whole.
6.10 Crestwood seems to do it's best work behind closed doors.
Centrum has many projects to develop...Crestwood has only one.
Crestwood just became low priority to Centrum . They have lots of fish in their pond... Some bigger and more Hungry than Crestwood's guppy..
Nothing like a bit of Urban Decay and tax increases to motivate the electorate.
@7:16
:)
Not sure about best work, but a good portion of its work seems to get done there!
7:12 AM Blogger: Why did Centrum go back on their promise to allow a state funded EPA study to be done on the property?
They said they would allow it, and now have 'walked back" the deal, why ?
What do THEY know that YOU don't ?
^Tom Ford
Define what is a "serious counteroffer".
Tom:
Your response to August 3, 2013 blogger shows your complete lack of understanding of TIF. Next year when St. Louis County reassesses the mall the assessed value will drop like a rock as it is a closed “Deadmall”. Lindbergh School District will loose more tax revenue. Additionally, the rest of the commercial property around the mall will also loose value further reducing revenue
If the Board had passed a TIF, the assessed value would have been frozen and at least Lindbergh would have not lost any more revenue.
Yes, if it is redeveloped, Lindbergh won’t see any new revenue from the mall until a TIF is paid off. However, a $100+ Million investment in the mall will certainly stabilize and increase surrounding commercial property values thus increasing tax revenue.
What we have now is a death spiral for commercial property values in Crestwood.
"What do THEY know that YOU don't ?"
Please, Mr. Ford, enlighten us all. What inside knowledge do YOU have?
@11:27 a.m.
Not the ramblings of individual aldermen along the lines of "We don't need another bowling alley" or "The project needs to have a residential component". Something in writing, drafted by the city attorney preferably. Something concrete--i.e. 17 million in TIF is too much, but we will offer 14 million, or something along those lines.
I doubt the board got to that level of negotiations. If they did, they are putting the cart before the horse. If you want to negotiate the amount of the TIF with the developer, it would be really helpful to have a planner run numbers and tell the city what a reasonable TIF request would be--if Centrum says they need 17 million, do the numbers support a request at that level? If you are going to counter their proposed TIF amount, you should have concrete facts and data to support your counteroffer. That is why the populace is upset with the mayor and the 4 aldermen who failed to approve a planner--not all of those in favor of the planner are "die-hard" Centrum supporters. They simply understand that negotiations should take place from a position of facts and real numbers, and not ignorance and opinion.
If the negotiations are concerning the concept of the development, a planner still would have been helpful to let the Board know if Centrum's proposed tenant mix justified the numbers they were putting forth. Saying "we already have a bowling alley" or "we don't want anything like they have on Delmar" before the numbers are even run is just ridiculous. If the tenant mix is not appropriate (as found by a planner and not just an aldermen's opinion with no basis in fact), then the BOA can negotiate from a position of strength with Centrum and tell them to alter their proposal and/or tenant mix to make the numbers work.
And the best part? Centrum was going to fund the planner! And based on the planner's preliminary analysis, they were not going to pull any punches, and would have given the BOA a fair and balanced picture of what the Centrum proposal was all about.
One can only ponder why the BOA would not hire the planner, and all I can assume is that there would be a fear that the planner would come back and say Centrum's proposal was reasonable, the numbers lined up,a and Crestwood should proceed. When one is ideologically opposed to TIFs (facts be damned), a planner's full report justifying the project would have been much harder to dispute, since none of the BOA or the mayor have any real estate development experience. The failure to hire a planner is a dereliction of their responsibility as aldermen, and the only justification I can see is a fear as to what that planner might say.
@9:53
Tom, as you well know, the promise was contingent, and the contingency never came to pass.
Think about it from their perspective--why have an environmental study done now, when Crestwood has shown no willingness to work with you on redevelopment. What possible good could come from it? Instead, you may be facing a risk that the state mandates some kind of expensive clean-up on the site that you have no revenue to cover the cost of funding. The proposed TIF included an environmental component, but if the TIF won't be occurring, and redevelopment won't be occurring, why invite the state to find a problem that you don't have funding source to fix?
If you were putting an addition on your home, you would have the city inspector out to issue a building permit and look at all of the new work. But if you weren't doing that addition, most homeowners aren't going to have the city inspector out to take a look at their existing home and point out any code violations.
When is the next MCU march? Who is contributing to this MCU non for profit organization?
How many high paying jobs will come from a $102 Million TIF project?
@1:25
Don't know much about MCU.
As to your second question, initially there should be a good number of construction, surveying, design, architectural jobs needed. Once/if the project is up and running, I imagine most of the jobs created will be fairly low-level, with some management positions thrown in.
Indirectly though, a successful project there keeps existing Crestwood police officers, fire fighters, etc. employed by having a stable tax base for Crestwood.
Is Best Buy closing after Christmas?
@11:27
Crestwood location only, or all of them?
Entirely possible...the Crestwood store is the 'Go to' store when all the others have sold out of what you need.
Best Buy is still morphing into a online / small store business plan. One more mediocre Christmas is all it takes..
7:10 AM Blogger: No, one more rule making to stall the economy out of Washington is "all it takes."
The Best Buy store in Crestwood is one of the most profitable stores in the chain, so I really doubt they would close it.
Tom Ford
1:26 PM Blogger: What 102 Million dollar project ?
So far centrum has only said it would be an entertainment center, however NO ONE IS SAYING WHO WILL PROVIDE THE "ENTERTAINMENT !" (Please don't give me the "field of dreams story here.")
Just how many "repeat" customers will a bowling ally with 10% (or more) tax have when they realize that they can go across the street and do the same for less ?
I know it sounds good, but I fear that it's "all hat and no cows." Now, what do you have (or know) to convince me otherwise ?
Tom Ford
" Now, what do you have (or know) to convince me otherwise ?"
Luckily, no one has to convince you of anything about this deal, unless you are a major player in Centrum or the City of Crestwood and have been keeping that quiet.
10:40 you think Tom Ford is a major player in Centrum or Crestwood? Are you kidding? Tom Ford has a blog and on his blog he is "boss". He knows others don't want a TIF and as long as he's got followers, he feels superior to everyone else who does agree with a TIF! There is no other reason so why would you or anyone try to convince him of anything. He loves to fight and fight he does.
This banter is useless anyway because the only ones who can make anything happen are the officials of the city and therefore nothing is continuing to flow between them and the developer.
So to keep on "keeping on" will do nothing but use up our valuable time. What we all should be doing is trying to sell our homes in Crestwood before they are worth "zero" because we have no officials worth their salt and will let this city "dry up" and when it does, they will blame it on us not themselves!
RE: Centrum's entertainment redevelopment proposal.
Can anyone point out the business(s) that have show any interest in moving to the old Mall that would qualify as an entertainment business?
@11:25:
Would YOU show any interest in dealing with this circus? Had anything actually happened with this redevelopment there might have been something to see. As it stands, I think we can forget about it.
Let me present a hypothetical situation/question - the developer's plan was sent to the planner, PGAV. Ok?
What if PGAV did not give it high marks?
Then what?
12:28 PM, August 09, 2013
You miss the entire importance of the question.
The proposal was for an entertainment center, what was the entertainment business listed in the proposal? If there were none, then the BOA was correct in rejecting the proposal and the circus as you call it, started with the developers wanting the BOA to ok something, an entertainment center, that it was not.
Unless you can come up with the entertainment part of Centrum's proposal to support what Centrum wanted to call it in order to sell it and get the TIF.
A bowling alley, a grocery store, a Menard's, a movie theater and six restaurants do not sound like much of an "entertainment" center to me.
Let's see, we have a bowling alley, we have 3 grocery stores, we have a hardware store, and we have more than 6 restaurants now. $110,000,000 for a movie theater seems a bit expensive to me, especially when $33,000,000 is other peoples money.
@4:18
It depends on what the criticisms were. If it is the amount of the TIF, or that Centrum's numbers don't justify the TIF, you go back to Centrum with a demand to lower the TIF.
If it is that the proposed tenants won't be sufficient to pay back the TIF in 23 years, then Centrum has to reduce their TIF request or change up their proposed tenant mix. A TIF cannot be approved unless it will be paid back in 23 years.
4:29 PM Give me a break! What do you want them to build? a GRANDEOS THREE STORY BUILDING MADE IN SOLID GOLD FOR ONLY THE RICH AND FAMOUS. Get over yourself, this is just a city of median income people. Come on! What do other plazas have? Get off your high horse and come back down to earth. I see lots of restaurants/plus entertainment for children, if you open your eyes! So what if there is another bowling alley; do we have to limit ourselves to only one - maybe a new one would have more of the extras, so families can spend extra time and money and bring their kids with them. Have some fun games or special sections to deal with people who want to bring little children with them. It should be all about families and family fun. If you are so adamant about rejecting their proposal, maybe your super intelligence can come up with something spectacular that no one else has thought about. You seem to think so anyway! Why do we have to have everything laid out right now; you even sent PGAV away and to me that was the first step of going down. PGAV has always cooperated with Crestwood and according to the order of things, it is the first thing that needs to be done before anything else can proceed. That is a reputable company so we can't even get to square one. Look around, go to other cities and see what they have. Sounds like the only thing we can get for less money is a developer who can dig a bunch of "worm holes" so you guys can all crawl into them and be happy.
@4:29
The tenants were going to be similar to the development at Rosemont, and have entertainment venues such as a movie theater, Toby Keith's (restaurant/music), bowling alley/restaurant/bar, German brewhaus, comedy club, etc. There was also going to be an ice skating rink.
What other kind of entertainment are you looking for? St. Louis County doesn't allow strip clubs.
4:51 PM, August 09, 2013
Well Tinker's Darn!
So what if there is a another bowling alley? I agree! I think we should have 2 or 3 or 10 in Crestwood. Boy oh boy Watson Road will be jammed with traffic. We'd be the most popular municipality in the area ... heck the world! That Toby Keith bar ... oh yeah! RED SOLO CUP!!!
@10:35pm
Maybe you haven't lived in St. Louis very long, but the greater St. Louis metropolitan area has one of the highest concentrations of hoosiers of any metro area. I know you are being sarcastic, but I don't think you realize how popular a Toby Keith bar and grill with live country music would be. It will probably pay off the TIF by itself in 6 or 7 years. :)
re PGAV and Bass Pro
http://www.altweeklies.com/aan/bass-pro-figures-flat/Story?oid=154271
11:08 PM, August 09, 2013
I lived in St. Louis all my life.
How very elitist of you.
Toby's place was off the map 8 months ago.
What is an entertainment center?
Toby took his red solo cup somewhere else. Oh shucks!
In all seriousness 11:08 PM, there was a big country-western bar in Grasso Plaza in the mid-late 90's where the former Save A Lot is - live music, etc. It lasted only a few years. There was also a country western bar between Earth City and St. Charles. It lasted 5-7 years.
Wild Country in Collinsville is still going, but that is over in Illinois.
Crestwood was blessed in many ways and fortunate that Webster Groves turned down the Zorensky (sp?) Brothers and their plan for a mall.
Crestwood was fortunate that it kept its zoning distinct. Residential stayed residential and Watson Road was the commercial corridor.
Crestwood was also fortunate that great housing stock was built here.
Once those factors were in place, the city basically ran itself. Some may disagree with me (I can't wait for the response on this one), but for several decades, the BOAs and mayors of yesteryear were basically seat warmers on the 2nd and 4th Tuesday of the month. (Oh...how dare you!!! Well, I dare) The only tough decisions that were made were how to spend the money and where to go for a drink after the BOA meeting - Pasta House or whatever.
But alas, the times are a changin. Now we have some tough decisions to make, and rubber-stamping like the days of yesteryear won't cut it.
I agree with 11:42 - but how are we going to convince the rest of the city about tough decisions.
10:35 PM must be after your bedtime cause you "shor as heck" are crabby. Now you want to try to be cute with your hoosier slurs? Well "gol lee"!
And that's the best you can come up with for the mall? I recken and I'm a thinkin maybe a hoosier bar is where ya'all are a needen to go!!!!
Dontsha know the ole sayin is "don't let your mouth overload your "xxxx"
Still looking for someone to define "Entertainment Center".
So far 3 examples of what posters see, I guess is a "Entertainment Center", of which 2 have closed after 5-7 years, which I believe is quite a difference in the number of years Centrum is requesting to pay of the TIF (23 years is only number Centrum has proposed)
How about Laser Tag, or a Pin Ball Emporium, to go with 6 restaurants, our 4th grocery store, a movie theater to replace the one that just closed and a Manards and Toby Keith's which have both said no already. Or a Putt Putt Golf Course? Maybe we could have a how to wear a hazardous suit training school for all visitors of the New and improved entertainment center to protect them from the unknown bu we know they are there stuff that could kill you?
How about the city asking for proposals to copy as close ad possible the condos and restaurants like Kirkwood has on Kirkwood Blvd?
"The Best Buy store in Crestwood is one of the most profitable stores in the chain, so I really doubt they would close it."
Tom, you've got to be kidding. Have you been to the South County location or Brentwood? Crestwood perhaps was the highest gross sales store... back in the late 1990's or early 2000's... not any more.
12:21 PM Crestwood will never be Kirkwood and as much as I would love it to be like Kirkwood the topography is not the same and they don't have a highway going down the middle of their retail space. To get into and out of Kirkwood's main street is narrow, very narrow. Parking is a problem so they have their problems too!
But they also do not have vacant buildings because their commercial property is small and limited.
Every city has their problems. They solve them by working together but no Crestwood; there is so much chaos in this city that who knows if we will ever come together or forever be divided.
Nobody is stepping up to the plate on our Mall, and if we could fire all of our city officials including the mayor and start all over, we might be able to go forward. As of right now, I don't see it happening.
Watson Road is just as much a highway as Kirkwood Road is. Ever heard of Route 66?
Yes, Kirkwood has vacant buildings and store fronts. Whats that got to do with the price of beans?
Parking would not be a problem in Crestwood, like it is in Kirkwood.
3:08 PM, August 10, 2013
The real problem with a plan for Crestwood like Kirkwood is Centrum has said no to the idea. For all Centrums talk of compromise, where is it?
If you like what you see what Kirkwood has done, and would love to see the same in Crestwood in the Old Mall, tell the 4 Alderman who support the current Centrum Proposal, Wallach, Breeding, Stadter and Tennessen. They are the ones who are stopping Crestwood from growing again with their sold out support of Centrum
If they refuse to see your vision of a downtown Crestwood like is in Kirkwood, ask them why? Ask them if Centrum helped them in any way get elected in their last election? Find out why they support who they support and why?
10:10 AM, August 10, 2013
Me crabby? No. I'm just looking forward to another bowling alley.
8-10-2013 @9:10pm
What does downtown Kirkwood have that Crestwood doesn't?
Answer: restaurants and bars (and yes, Crestwood does have a couple of restaurants, and Malone's as far as bars go, but Kirkwood has both in spades). I think the Centrum plan addresses a niche that Crestwood doesn't have.
If you are talking about the condos on Lindbergh with the retail underneath them that everyone is so fond of, keep dreaming. Those condos were going for half a million or more, and couldn't get fully sold even in the boom years--and Kirkwood is a higher income area than Crestwood.
Right now, there is still a glut of condos in the St. Louis area, and villa-style, ranch homes (with common area maintenance like condos have) is what all of the downsizing baby boomers want, not high-rise luxury condos. While those look pretty, that idea won't fly.
5:35 PM, August 11, 2013
wow mr/mrs negativity!!5:35 PM, August 11, 2013
A few posts ago it was claimed the area around Crestwood is what we were trying to draw from for Centrum's proposal, now your claiming that the cost of Kirkwood like condo's is to much for Crestwood, but what about the are surround Crestwood, like Kirkwood?
DO you think Kirkwood residences will spend money at the Centrum proposal? Do you think the only people who bought the condos in Kirkwood were from Kirkwood? Can you support that position?
"Right now, there is still a glut of condos in the St. Louis area, and villa-style, ranch homes (with common area maintenance like condos have) is what all of the downsizing baby boomers want, not high-rise luxury condos." And you can prove that with what??
Could you say there is already a glut of restaurants in Crestwood but you don't have a problem with Centrum adding more, but you do have a problem with the Kirkwood idea adding more? Kind of splitting hairs aren't you in an effect to support blinding Centrum's plan?
"I think the Centrum plan addresses a niche that Crestwood doesn't have."
Like a 4th grocery store, a 2nd bowling ally, and another attempt at a movie theater in Crestwood.
Every one of the neighbors answer when I ask them what would they rather see in the old Mall, a Kirkwood style development or Centrum's proposal say give us the Kirkwood development!
Your position is wrong for Crestwood! Many of the Centrum proposal supporters have said they would like to have a development like the U City loop which is what they believe Centrum is proposing.
Do you really think CRESTWOOD wants the U City Loop on Watson Road? Do you really believe that is the best Crestwood can do? Tattoo shops, old records stores, run down bars, increase in crime, run down movie , theater that's the future you see for Crestwood.
Please!
Here are a couple of reviews of the Loop:
University City, and especially The Loop, is a fun place with lots of interesting shops and restaurants. The problem is the crime. I would not go there at night as a woman alone, or with other women friends. Muggings, robberies, car break-ins and yes, shooting deaths are not infrequent if not routine in U. City Loop. Too bad. The police need to get better control of the crime element.
We read good reviews and were surprised when we got there that it seemed to be a few blocks of run down and chain restaurants. Stores were kitschy or even used goods. Streets were dirty which we did not experience in other areas of the city. Also we were harrassed by street people and pedestrians seemed to be mainly students. In reading the history of the Loop with the previous trolley connection to Forest Park I could see that it was probably a fun place at one time. However it seems to really have gone downhill. Perhaps if you are more into night life and music it would be better. We found the West End (east of Forest Park) to be much more pleasant and better restaurants.
Have you forgotten the Crime Problem the Loop has? And you support Centrum's proposal cause you hope it will create the U City Loop like setting for Crestwood?
Please!
http://photos3.zillow.com/p_f/IS-14f7bmsx6ceal.jpg
Are these the condos you are talking about? Nothing special there. The expensive ones are off Pullman place behind these.
"Every one of the neighbors answer when I ask them what would they rather see in the old Mall, a Kirkwood style development or Centrum's proposal say give us the Kirkwood development!"
Your neighbors probably also have no understanding of Crestwood's budget, real estate development, the difference between a point of sale or pool city, and the difference in tax benefit to Crestwood of a plan focused on commercial development versus residential.
"Tattoo shops, old records stores, run down bars, increase in crime, run down movie , theater that's the future you see for Crestwood"
Pretty sure none of those things are in Centrum's plan. Their movie theater was going to be high-end, the bars/restaurants were going to be high end, etc. Do you know what Crestwood has now? Empty stores, multiple thrift stores/re-sell it shops, and a "rent to own" car dealer. I would say Crestwood is already on a negative path. A lack of development, and a perceived hostility to business interests (both the Centrum development and to existing businesses) hurts Crestwood. Crestwood loses KFC, loses Mattress Giant (bought by mattress firm); just down the street Sunset Hills is getting a new Mattress Firm, new Panda Express, new Chick Filet, etc.
"Have you forgotten the Crime Problem the Loop has? And you support Centrum's proposal cause you hope it will create the U City Loop like setting for Crestwood?"
Not sure who ever said they wanted the Loops's crime element in Crestwood. The Loop has crime because it is blocks from some of the poorest, most crime-ridden areas of the city, and the criminal element that live there prey upon people with money frequenting the Loop establishments.
Adding high-end bars/restaurants to Crestwood doesn't attract a criminal element any more than the Kirkwood bar/restaurant district attracts a criminal element.
"Like a 4th grocery store, a 2nd bowling ally, and another attempt at a movie theater in Crestwood."
Crestwood does not have a Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, Dierbergs, or high end grocer. Crestwood has a regular old bowling alley, which is great at what it does. Does it sound anything like this: http://kingsbowlamerica.com/about/ ?
The idea that the development can't have a business that Crestwood already has is asine--no stores that sell clothing because we already have a Gordman's? no bars because we already have Malone's? no restaurants because we already have San Jose? no hardware stores because we have Ace? Good luck coming up with a plan for 50 acres that involves no duplication whatsoever of existing businesses.
Adding high-end bars/restaurants to Crestwood etc
Why would anyone come, after all, Crestwood is not a high income neighborhood?
Adding high-end bars/restaurants to Crestwood doesn't attract a criminal element any more than the Kirkwood bar/restaurant district attracts a criminal element.
Great, Then lets do a high end Kirkwood style development, not like the U city Loop that Centrum supporters want! Ask your neighbors if they like a development like that in Kirkwood or just 6 more restaurants, a movie theater, a grocery store, and some high end bars you know, kind of lie the U City Loop?
Be honest with us and yourself, you don't have the best interest of Crestwood at heart but instead Centrum's proposal is what you want. Why would you settle for 2nd best for a city that you claim to love and live in?
Centrum supporters claim they want compromise, well here is compromise and guess what, Centrum supporters don't want to compromise. Wonder why?
If you like what you see what Kirkwood has done, and would love to see the same in Crestwood in the Old Mall, tell the 4 Alderman who support the current Centrum Proposal, Wallach, Breeding, Stadter and Tennessen. They are the ones who are stopping Crestwood from growing again with their sold out support of Centrum
If they refuse to see your vision of a downtown Crestwood like is in Kirkwood, ask them why? Ask them if Centrum helped them in any way get elected in their last election? Find out why they support who they support and why?
In fact ask the people who ran and lost in the April 2013 election if Centrum helped them?
2:46 PM Blogger: Crestwood has been stopped from growing for two very good reasons.
1. Were not near a highway.
2. More rentals and fewer owners.
I see by the nature of the post's above that no one is very happy about an "entertainment district," (norould they be,)
WE NEED A MAJOR DRAWING CARD folks, Centrum doesn't have one, we can't afford one, and so it goes.
Develop the property yes, but do it with what will work, and that's not another bowling ally, grocery store, or condo's.
Tom Ford
@2:46am
What specifically do you like so much about downtown Kirkwood? The condos? Won't work in Crestwood. The history/old train station/authentic main street? Sorry, Crestwood is 50 years old, not over 100 years old, and it's hard to re-create a historic feel. The walkability of Kirkwood? That I agree Crestwood could use. Grant's trail runs along the entire back side of the old mall. Whatever gets developed there--Centrum's proposal or something else--access to Grant's trail should be strongly considered--people from all over St. Louis bike the trail, and it would be free advertising for the development.
"...Wallach, Breeding, Stadter and Tennessen...
Ask them if Centrum helped them in any way get elected in their last election? Find out why they support who they support and why?
In fact ask the people who ran and lost in the April 2013 election if Centrum helped them?"
Check the campaign reports--while the usual players (firefighters union) were involved, there were no Centrum/Angelo Gordon donations to any candidate or aldermen in the past several elections. Now, if you are into conspiracy theories, then of course Centrum played kingmaker by buying background checks on all of the candidates and uncovered a past felony for one of the candidates. Hardly likely.
@6:37 am
Tom is right on the first two--the distance from the interstate has retarded Crestwood's growth compared to Maplewood, Kirkwood, Sunset Hills, Brentwood, etc. The age/quality of the housing stock in some places has led to a lot of rentals in certain wards, which affects the culture and feel of a neighborhood.
And then having 50 empty acres in the heart of the city (and countless other empty store fronts--BP station at Watson/Sappington being the most prominent) leaves one with a sense of failure and decay every time you drive through Crestwood, and then perception becomes reality.
7:25 AM, August 12, 2013
Are you the same person who said Crestwood didn't have a major highway going through its' middle, not knowing about route 66? And we are to take your word about knowing whats best for Crestwood?
Please!
So with all the reasons you claim a Kirkwood plan would not work in Crestwood, what makes you believe that Centrum's proposal would work?
How long was the current development in Kirkwood vacant before it was redeveloped? And how many acres was it, and was it not also in the middle of Kirkwood? You see, other than a blind devotion to Centrum's proposal, there is no reason why Crestwood could and should not do the same as Kirkwood did. And that blind devotion is found in the BOA under the names of Wallach, Breeding, Stadter and Tennessen, you know them as the "Centrum is Us".
@10:16
Ummm...Route 66 hasn't been around for 30 or so years. The interstates in St. Louis are 55, 44, 270, 255, 70, 64, and 170. That is a fact, that all adults of common sense are capable of ascertaining. Watson Road (366) is a state highway like Manchester, Kingshighway, St. Charles Rock Road, Natural Bridge, Olive, Lindbergh, Telegraph, and Gravois.
"there is no reason why Crestwood could and should not do the same as Kirkwood did"
What did "Kirkwood" do? I don't believe the city did anything in their downtown in the area by the condos. The area you are talking about in downtown Kirkwood has always been prime real estate, and has never had a 50 acre vacancy. Kirkwood did not have to knock down 1 million square feet of buildings to build up their downtown. In another part of Kirkwood, where existing buildings had to be demolished, where Texas Roadhouse, Target, Lowe's, Walmart, TJ Max, etc. are, Kirkwood demolished most of Meachem Park using a TIF.
Also, for good measure, Kirkwood developed Pioneer Place near their downtown using a TIF.
MCU is Metropolitan Congregration United. GAMALIEL Fire of Faith logo is listed on the Rekindle the Fire of Faith 2013 MCU Community Resource Guide & Buy-Local Ad Book.
MCU-CUCA
MCU-City
United Congregation of Metro East
MCU-Isaiah
Metropolitan Congregations United - City
4501 Westminister Place, 3rd Floor, St. Louis, Missouis 63108
314-367-3484
Jim Sahaida, MCU President
Metropolitan Congregations United (MCU) Page 1
Blessed Teresa of Calcutta Catholic Church
Central Reform Congregation
Christ Church Cathedral
Greater St. Mark Family Church
Liberation Christain Church
Most Holy Trinity Catholic Church
Mary Mother of the Church
Metropolitan Community Church
Oak Hill Presbyterian Church
Our Lady of Guadalupe Catholic Church
Our Lady of Sorrows Catholic Church
Our Lady of the Holy Cross Catholic Church
Pilgrim Congregational United Church of Christ
St. Ann Catholic Church
St. Cecilia Catholic Church
St. Cronan Catholic Church
St. Elizabeth Mother of John the Baptist
St. Elizabeth of Hungary Catholic Church
St. Ferdinand Catholic Church
St. John's United Church of Christ
St. Louis Mennonite Fellowship
St. Margaret of Scotland Catholic Church
St. Mark United Methodist Church
St. Pius V Catholic Church
St. Stephen Protomartyr Catholic Church
Sts. Peter and Paul Catholic Church
School Sisters of Notre Dame
Second Presbyterian Church
Union Avenue Christian Church
Westminister Presbyterian Church
Zion United Methodist
Why are the MCU members running a prayer vigil in front of the City of Crestwood for a TIF at the Crestwood Court for Centrum???
To ALL who tout the Kirkwood TIF programs. Why is it that Kirkwood has placed a six month moratorium on development ?
Have they seen something you haven't ? Please check it out.
Tom Ford
3:13 PM Blogger: Exactly ! Now what ever happened to those who constantly "preached" separation of church and state ?
When is it OK for a church to violate it's 501-C3 status and preach the word of greed from the pulpit ?
You can't have it both ways people, either it's not allowed, or it is, which one is it ?
By the way, there is no mention of the "church and state" thing in the Constitution, but the left say's there is, so deal with that also if you will.
Tom Ford
3.13 PM I have it! a Multi
denominational Mega church! Funded entirely by Parishioners ...!
Wait A min .. Churches don't pay taxes..
At least I had an Idea....
@7:22 am
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/kirkwood-to-vote-on--month-halt-to-development-around/article_1d135da6-6c4b-5f14-8bd3-664e7cf0d451.html
"City leaders want the break so they can woo ideas for redevelopment of the area, which includes the major intersection of Kirkwood and Manchester roads, from private firms. Any redevelopment could potentially involve public funding."
They actually just want time to issue an RFP and have a larger, more planned development, rather than a haphazard, piecemeal, development.
I don't know who has been touting Kirkwood's use of TIF. It has been pointed out that Kirkwood has extensively used TIF in response to those who say Crestwood should "do what Kirkwood did".
TIF for the mall site in Crestwood is far more justified than the Pioneer Place TIF in Kirkwood in my opinion.
The TIF that resulted in the leveling of Meachem Park was/is obviously controversial. Most people (myself included) are not comfortable with the use of TIF to knock down residential neighborhoods to build retail. Crestwood's site is C-1 commercial all the way. However, Meachem Park was just a crime-ridden hell-hole, I for one am happy to have a Lowe's and Texas Roadhouse there now instead, so there are exceptions to every rule.
What is all this mumbo jumbo about Kirkwood, U City loop, etc.! What are we getting into here with those remarks? We get nowhere. We are Crestwood, we lived good on sales tax for a long time; but that was then and this is now. How long did you think things were going to stay the same. They never do.
Don't make me laugh with "personally I would like to see a high end.......". That is so lame it isn't funny. This Mall is becoming the joke of the century! If you want something built that will last forever - tell us all how you do it so we can all get lucky. If you don't want a TIF? You probably really don't give a hoot if the mall will ever be rebuilt. If Centrum goes, who in God's name is going to come in and develop it? You think after we gave these guys such a hard time that someone like superman, the caped crusader, is going to come in a give us the greatest deal on earth? We have no secret admirers with gobs of money folks. Get off of your high horse. We are the laughing stock right now. Let the Mall rot so we can be the laughing stock of the whole entire county.
PGAV doesn't even want to do business with us anymore. The mindset in this town is the size of a pea or smaller. You would rather see this whole mall disintegrate to rotten timbers and steel than go with a TIF!!!!! You are all so arrogant that you only want the developer to design what you specifically want. You cannot do that with commercial property. It is not like picking and choosing when you buy a home - "no I want two bathrooms, not one; I want a bigger deck when the property line won't allow it. So, then you say, "well I will find another home builder so I can have want I want"????? What is this anyway some kind of joke! Sorry, but you four people who say no to this developer - I hope you are all voted off the board when time comes! You are the most unreasonable, arrogant people I have ever seen! If you 4 have got that much money to develop a mall with everything in it you want and no TIF - you buy the Mall from Centrum! See what happens. Everybody in this town is getting sick and tired of this crappy attitude.
11.51 for some reason The Duchy of Grand Fenwick comes to mind,,,
The Duchy of Grand Fenwick is five miles (8 km) long and three miles (5 km) wide and lies in a fold in the European Alps. Most of its inhabitants live in the City of Fenwick that is clustered around Fenwick Castle, the seat of government.
The Duchy borders Switzerland and France in the Alps. It retains a pre-industrial economy, based almost entirely on making wool and the famous Pinot Grand Fenwick wine. It takes its name from its founder, the English knight Sir Roger Fenwick who, while employed by France, settled there with his followers in 1430. Thanks to Sir Roger, the national language is English.
The Duchy of Grand Fenwick is a monarchy led by Her Majesty Duchess Gloriana XII. The nation has two political parties, the Dilutionists, led by David Bentner, and the Anti-Dilutionists, led by Count Mountjoy, the Prime Minister. The names of the parties reflect their positions on whether to dilute the wine exports of the Duchy. The positions of leadership are hereditary.
The national flag of Grand Fenwick is a double-headed eagle saying "Aye" from one beak and "Nay" from another. Sir Roger recorded that he only learned three things in his two years at Oxford University:
1.That "Aye" might be turned into "Nay" and vice versa if a sufficient quantity of wordage was applied to the matter.
2.In any argument the victor is always right.
3.Though the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment.
Want to know the eventual goal of Rex's buddies the Show Me Institute, and its proponents like Tom and the 4 anti-development aldermen?:
http://showmeinstitute.org/publications/commentary/taxes/565-saint-louis-county-sales-tax-pool.html
A total elimination of Point of Sale cities, and one big County pool. All in the name of cutting back on the hated TIFs. Does it matter that being a pool city would drastically cut Crestwood's share of sales tax receipts and lead to cuts in services and property tax increases? Apparently not. The people opposed to this development do so for ideological reasons, and do not have the best interests of Crestwood at heart.
So, will the BOA meeting tonight have a quest appearance by none other than
Sol Barkett?
12:35 PM 8/13 You are so correct in what you have said and that is exactly what is going to happen.
Why aren't the monthly sales tax/ financial reports posted on the City's website? Why did the former Finance Officer leave?
@11:01 pm
That was asked about at tonight's BOA meeting...CA says they will be posted going forward. Although the CA and Alderman Wallach had an exchange in which Alderman Wallach claimed the sales tax numbers were down ~45,000 from the 2012 numbers, while the CA claimed that the sales tax numbers were flat/on par with 2012.
Even if the CA is right, that is not much of an accomplishment, as retail is up everywhere over 2012, and so keeping pace with 2012 (or falling a little behind 2012) can only be viewed as a failure.
As for the finance officer, I'm sure that was the subject of the closed session before tonight's BOA meeting. Maybe he'll get the Eastman treatment and get a year's salary and health insurance? That seems to be the Crestwood way of doing things.
Ask the former Finance Officer, why he left.
A lot of people still Boycott Crestwood businesses...thanks to the Mayor and BOA...actions.
I was told once that sometimes when you pray and ask God for something, the answer is "No". But then we go on and ask why God isn't listening to us (because we didn't get what we asked for). He did, and we didn't like the answer. There seem to be 4 who are saying yes to TIF and 4 who are saying no. What makes either set "right"? Only history (and either success or regret) will provide that answer. I also keep hearing for calls for Leadership". Similar to the above request to God above, VOTERS of Crestwood voted these people in. You asked them to "lead", but are only happy when they lead your way. We've learned a lesson I hope and will interrogate future candidates on issues that are important to us and vote accordingly.
Personally, I believe we should exercise every bit of caution on the Centrum proposal. Several things were brought out at last night's BoA meeting (8/13)about revenue projections (it would seem to me that so many years later that all those numbers need to re-worked anyway) and environmental issues. Ever buy a house or rent an apartment only to find you have foundation problems or hot water problems after you've moved in? Funny how those things happen after you're already committed. I'm more concerned about what's coming down the road for this country. Consumer debt has hit record highs at the same time the DOW has. Real wages have not increased for the average household since the 70's. Anything wrong with this picture? Our household recently received a 2% wage increase, which comes out to $.42 per hour before taxes and other benefits (health, etc.) Thank you for reading this and stay involved. Let's try to tone down the rhetoric and drama.
@9:54
Good points. Although "We've learned a lesson I hope and will interrogate future candidates on issues that are important to us and vote accordingly" only works if the candidates keep their promises--some haven't.
Crestwood should absolutely proceed cautiously with Centrum, and negotiate hard on every number. A planner helps that process and gives Crestwood hard, concrete data to present to Centrum, rather than just aldermanic opinions.
As for the "peanut gallery" comments from last night regarding the financial projections? That should be left to the professionals. Mr. Lang in particular shouted at the board for a while about how he had crunched all of the numbers, and that the development couldn't pay for the TIF based on some known-only-to-him forumula using parking spaces. However, his "projections" did not include utility taxes or personal property taxes, and completely neglected to take into account property taxes. When the development is built and reassessed, and the property taxes go from 300,000 to 1 million or so, then that is 700,000/year that goes toward paying down the TIF.
Thank you @9:54 for pointing out the unkept promises. I have heard that several times from residents and business owners about one Alderman in particular. Although I can't get the facts other than the then candidate was "behind re-development" and now is not. I really think the person was referring to a stance on TIF. Thank you also for pointing out Mr. Lang's back of the envelope analysis. That is one of the problems with the Public Comment session. We don't get to ask the person how they arrived at their conclusions. As it is said, the devil is in the details. Hang in there all. This has to play out in one way or another.
"That should be left to the professionals."
You mean like Centrum who is so much a professional that they purchased the Mall just before the Great real estate collapse?
These so called professionals didn't see this coming? They didn't see the mass exit of stores from their new purchase before they bought it? They believed the promised 100% support for a TIF by former "officials of the City"?
It's a shame that so many people left after public comments, that's when the real interesting things happened.
@1:21 pm
No, like PGAV or another competent planner. Someone who can test the Centrum numbers, and let Crestwood know which income projections are overly optimistic, which expense numbers are inflated, etc. You have one side that seems to be anti-TIF, numbers be damned, and another side that seems pleased to go along with the development/TIF request as-is. A middle ground negotiation for a reasonable TIF amount based in fact is the answer.
"You mean like Centrum who is so much a professional that they purchased the Mall just before the Great real estate collapse?"
You are just being ridiculous if you are suggesting that Centrum, or anyone else in any profession or company saw the Great Recession and real estate collapse coming. Seriously? Centrum is a developer, and a good one nationwide at that. They are not some kind of Messiah with clairvoyant powers and the ability to sense global market conditions.
copied from Patch of 8/14/13 in response to press release by MCU.(MCU statements are in quotations)
"maintain(Crestwood) home values" This from MCU leader who doesn't live in Crestwood, whose organization supports the merger of St.Louis City and St. Louis County, an organization who has supported the positions of ACORN and worked with them, and is aligned with far left wing programs of "community leaders" and St. Louis County Executive Dooley?
"there appears to be no Plan B for development of the mall site." Pure misleading statement meant to increase the emotional level of the issue while ignoring the truth that came out in the BOA meeting of 8/13/13. Since the Patch didn't report the event of the BOA meeting, but just the press release of the far left wing MCU you might want to take the time to listen to the tapes of the meeting. If you do so you will find out that since 7/9/13 Centrum has had in their lap a plan B that Centrum first promise to respond to by end of July, and hasn't. That Centum has broken their promise to engage the State to find out what EPA issues are on their property(cost is free for this service), and what the cost to correct same would be. And that Centrum could use tax credits from Brownsfield that could amount to 100% of the cost to tear down and remove the problems, if they would just ask for the inspection. Tax credits that could be sold for cash, used out of state just like real money! Tax credits that could equal what Centrum is currently requesting in TIF. Centrum has stated they want to use TIF dollars to tear down and correct hazardous material issues. Why? When for free they can find out the amount needed to fix the problem and find out how much in tax credits they can get. Do you understand that with Brownfield TaX Credits, Centrum may not need a TIF for the reason they claim they need a TIF? So Plan B is there, and has been, and Centrum is holding Crestwood hostage to their big corp profits bynit responding as they promised to the plans the BOA offered on 7/9/13. And amazingly, good ole Conservative Crestwood, whose citizens have voted down all recent tax increase proposals, are supporting a movement that is about as liberal as you can find.
That dear readers is the story that needs to be told!
Ask your Alderman if they support the far left wing agenda of the MCU?
@2:02 pm
Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows. The usual left/wing right wing designations are out the window on an issue like this. I know just as many Republicans for this issue as against, and likewise with self-professed Democrats.
As for this:
"And that Centrum could use tax credits from Brownsfield that could amount to 100% of the cost to tear down and remove the problems, if they would just ask for the inspection. Tax credits that could be sold for cash, used out of state just like real money! Tax credits that could equal what Centrum is currently requesting in TIF. Centrum has stated they want to use TIF dollars to tear down and correct hazardous material issues. Why? When for free they can find out the amount needed to fix the problem and find out how much in tax credits they can get. Do you understand that with Brownfield TaX Credits, Centrum may not need a TIF for the reason they claim they need a TIF?"
I would be skeptical that the brownfield fairy (State of Missouri) is going to rain money down on Crestwood mall and provide millions of dollars to redevelop the site. That hope was professed at the meeting last night, but like most comments made at BOA meetings, it was spoken without proper investigation first.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/northwest-plaza-deal-cost-taxpayers-millions/article_faa6615e-2124-523e-b317-e6222de2d55f.html
Yep, let's just do an environmental study, that will solve all of Crestwood and Centrum's problems. I think after the NW Plaza debacle, the state will proceed cautiously with another mall request.
"I would be skeptical that the brownfield fairy (State of Missouri) is going to rain money down on Crestwood mall."
And you are an expert in this? Just reporting what Greg Robbie said in the BOA meeting, could he be wrong? As has been said by the pro TIF pro Centrum crowd pro MCU agenda crowd "do something, move this forward, how do you know until you tried it?, stopped the stall on the Mall (Centrum!)."
Ask your Alderman if they support the far left wing agenda of the MCU?
2:41 PM, August 14, 2013
Reading the link you provided, no where do I see the that the developer requested a State run study on possible issues before the redevelopment. That the developer when to the State with a study provided by a private firm to support their request for Tax Credits is what I am reading.
This sounds exactly what Centrum wants to do with the Mall. They want to pick the company who inspects and does the survey of the Mall after the TIF amounts have agreed to. Crestwood is right to want to prevent this type of tax grab by Centrum and hold them to the State inspection process BEFORE any next steps are taken. After all, it is what Centrum promised to do on 7/9/13!
Come on Centrum, stop the stall on the Mall!
The Missouri Department of Economic Development requires a brownfield tax credit applicant to obtain at least three bids for remediation. <-----from the link
If what Mr. Roby said last night is correct, "the state" just oversees things, and isn't the one actually doing the inspecting. It is all private firms.
Speaking of the far wing left agenda of Mary Chubb and the MCU, which seems to be quasi or fully operating under the auspices or with the consent of St. Elizabeth of Hungary, I know I was interviewed in the cafeteria there by Mary Chubb and her leader. My question is, isn't there supposed to be a separation of Church and State? It would seem to me that St. Elizabeth of Hungary risks it's TAX EXEMPTION by providing support to a political group. Wonder if IRS would be as interested in investigating MCU as they were in investigating Tea Party affiliations?
If the MCU has a far left agenda, or even a left or slightly left agenda, then why are any of the Catholic Churches aligning themselves with this group?
11:11 PM, August 14, 2013
You really don't know do you? Did you know that Mary Chubb was a teacher at St. E's and was instrumental in bringing Union Contract for the teachers and certification by state for private school teachers?
Result, a lot of Nuns who taught for free as a part of their mission to the Church lost their jobs and were replaced with teacher whose union contract forced the Catholic to raise tuition until the parents could no longer afford to send their Kids to a Catholic school. That is why St.E closed their school several years ago. I believe Mary was a teacher their when they closed.
It sound to me that you believe Catholic churches are conservative. They are when it come to pro life issue, but 99% of Catholic teaching supports workers rights and unionization vs the big corporation, even to their own detriment.
So when you out there in front of city hall waving your signs, demanding a plan and expressing fears about the Citys future, don't forget if your spokes person for your group is Mary Chubb of the MCU supports a merger of St. Louis County with St. Louis City.
11:11 here. You are right ... I really didn't know.
I knew Mary Chubb was or is a member of St. E's and I heard she lives in Sunset Hills. I didn't know she taught at St. E's.
I agree - Catholic Churches are conservative when it comes to the pro-life issue but other issues not so sure.
I looked on MCU's website and the majority of churches listed are Catholic. Fighting payday loans, Metrolink expansion, were some of the issues they worked on.
Trust me, I was not in front of city hall waving any sign.
I'm curious - I briefly perused their website. Where did you find that they support the city/county merger? I'm not doubting you or challenging you - I just didn't see it when I glanced at their website.
" Did you know that Mary Chubb was a teacher at St. E's and was instrumental in bringing Union Contract for the teachers and certification by state for private school teachers?"
You say these 2 things like they're bad things. They are not, and saying so doesn't make me a liberal. There is nothing bad about demanding that teachers of children be trained and certified rather than random nuns who felt like teaching. There is nothing wrong with unions that demand teachers be paid a living wage. Even today, many teachers have to have second jobs to make ends meet. Why does everyone hate teachers on this blog?? I know many and they are all educated, dedicated professionals. You had many, your children have had many. Can you read? Write? Think objectively? Thank a teacher.
Obama's economic rating at 35% !
http://www.gallup.com/poll/163985/obama-economic-approval-slips.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm
_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm
_content=morelink&utm_term=Presi
dential%20Job%20Approval
Perhaps we should hold on to the purse strings a bit longer. I firmly believe that at this juncture the Alderman and the Mayor are on the right course for Crestwood.
Please give your "spontaneous rent a mob" from the MCU (most of whom don't live in Crestwood) a rest. What you need to worry about now is the SB=4 group who met "off campus," and the eventual ruling by the AG.
Tom Ford
"Please give your "spontaneous rent a mob" from the MCU (most of whom don't live in Crestwood) a rest. What you need to worry about now is the SB=4 group who met "off campus," and the eventual ruling by the AG."
The Attorney General doesn't make "rulings" Tom. Courts do. And I don't think anyone has anything to worry about since no Sunshine law violation occurred. There is some odd misconception in Crestwood that Aldermen can only talk to one another at public meetings. Everyone is so fearful of Sunshine law violations. I hope the City Attorney sets them straight. Mark Sime was supposedly going to set up a training session for the Aldermen by the City Attorney--long overdue. While certain things can only happen at public meetings, talking to one another without a quorum is not one of them.
As for the MCU bashing? I don't know much about them, but generally, when one side starts in on the ad hominem attacks, that typically indicates the facts are a little short on their side. If you want to argue against redevelopment, stick to the facts, not bashings its proponents. I seem to recall everyone got their panties in a bunch when one of the pro development crowd took some cheap shots at Ms. Duchild on a patch article--neither is appropriate, and I would hope both sides can keep the discourse more civil and not question one another's character, motivation, etc.
"Why does everyone hate teachers on this blog?"
Speaking for my self I do not hate teachers, I do dislike a whole bunch the Teachers Union and the liberal positions they hod and support.
Not 100% sure, nut I believe it can be said that students who were taught by Nuns(random nuns who felt like teaching) and other non certified teachers learned how to read. So to make the assumption that one can read only because their teacher was certified and union is crazy!
And yes it is not surprise to me that you are a teacher, a well paid and under worked one at that, as class sizes are going down and teachers paid is going up.
Since when is telling the history and back ground of MCU bashing them?
It is far more effective to advocate for a position based on the facts of the situation. Examples:
I am for the redevelopment because the projected revenues to Crestwood of $800,000/year would stabilize Crestwood's budget and allow for retention of key employees and services.
OR
I am against the redevelopment because the requested TIF amount is too high and Centrum has shown an unwillingness to explore state tax credits prior to asking for TIF.
You get the idea.
Disparage or promote the plan or the idea, but it is distracting and counterproductive to dismiss someone's opinion out of hand because they are "old", "black", "left-wing", "right-wing", "butch" "Catholic", etc.
Speaking of "left wing", looks like the same Sierra Club that is a big fan of the Obama administration (https://missouri2.sierraclub.org/conservation/obama-epa-finalizes-endangerment-finding) is anti-TIF in Missouri (https://missouri2.sierraclub.org/newsletter/tax-increment-financing-race-bottom-hurts-our-environment)
But it figures they would be anti-development/anti-business.
Oh I see, it's racist if the background and history of MCU is brought up. Sorry forgot all about political correctness.
That's a pile of cr#p and you know it!
To bring attention to the background of groups supporting a public issue is well within the bounds of healthy discussion.
The fact you don't want that to be a part of the discussion makes me wonder what you are trying to hide about MCU?
Do you believe if the KKK or NAACP or CPUSA was opposed to the Centrum proposal that those organizations history and positions would not be discussed?
Do you recall that one pro Centrum proposal person has asked to those on the BOA opposing her view, if the reason for their position was they were working for another Developer or were in the real estate business? That's ok but to but to share the history of MCU is wrong?
Are you telling me that all the pro Centrum proposal people who are allowing MCU leader (Mary Chubb) to speak as their spokesperson don't care about her background or don't need to know it?
To satisfy your demand for political correctness "I am against the redevelopment because the requested TIF amount is too high and Centrum has shown an unwillingness to explore state tax credits prior to asking for TIF. And I am against the proposal because MCU is for it. Just like you, I bet, would be opposed to something supported by the KKK or the TEA Party or CPUSA!
If you lie down with the dogs, chances are you will get the dogs fleas.
@1:20
You make some good points, and I actually have little use for political correctness. The point I was trying to make is that too many people that self-identify as Republicans/conservatives automatically dismiss ideas that come from self-identified Democrats/liberals, and vice versa. If an idea is a good one/bad one, judge the idea.
I think its relevant to question if a group or individual has a motivation or interest in an idea. Certainly if a sitting alderman had a conflict of interest due to development ties, that would be relevant. Judging each individual citizen who comments on an issue though? Just seems like a bit much. As for me, I think some so-called tea party ideas are ridiculous, and others have serious merit, all depends. Comparing a Christian group (I guess?) to the KKK seems a little over the top.
@9:04 am-
"And yes it is not surprise to me that you are a teacher, a well paid and under worked one at that, as class sizes are going down and teachers paid is going up."
I am not a teacher. Stop assuming. And even if I were, how could you possibly know whether I am over worked or not?? Again, stop assuming you know what you're talking about.
Class sizes are going down where? Cite your facts and state where you got them. Tell me where "teacher paid" is going up more than 1-2%
If you'll look at what I said, I didn't say nuns who weren't certified couldn't teach. I said there's nothing wrong with asking them to become certified. I also said there's nothing wrong with teacher's unions asking for living wages for teachers. Read more closely before you put words in other people's mouths.
7:37AM BLOGGER: Let's wait and see what problems the arrogance of the SB-4 brings them.
Unless some of the legal beagles I have spoken to are wrong, they are in violation, but' that's for the AG to decide.
Tom Ford
@3:18 pm
I hope you are wrong Tom. As a taxpayer living in Crestwood who pays state and local taxes, I would be double upset if the AG brings a suit. One, because Crestwood's city attorney has to waste precious Crestwood dollars defending the suit, and two, because the MO AG would be wasting precious state dollars over a frickin' meeting in a Starbucks. There is so much real fraud and corruption in this state for the AG to focus on, this would be such a waste of taxpayer dollars all around.
the missouri attorney general could employ a law firm of attorneys just investigating the Dooley administration
3:41 PM BLOGGER: I doubt there would be a suit, A slap down maybe, but not a suit.
3:43PM BLOGGER: Seems like I t could happen, but who to pick?
Tom Ford
they will have to take a 'class' In sunshine laws. End of story.
7:27 AM BLOGGER: And we'll they should!!
Tom Ford
Keep a sharp eye out for MCU acting for and with and of the names listed below. There'er Back!
A spinoff of the scandal-ridden community organizer group ACORN received more than $200,000 in federal housing grants despite a ban on money going to ACORN affiliates, watchdog organization Judicial Watch announced Thursday.
ACORN, which officially folded in 2009 after a string of scandals, rebranded into more than 100 spinoff groups, including Affordable Housing Centers of America -- also now defunct -- and Mission of Peace, an affordable housing nonprofit.
In February, the Department of Housing and Urban Development transferred $201,222.07 from AHCOA to Mission of Peace "specifically to pay for the activities of former AHCOA affiliates," according to a memo obtained by Judicial Watch through a Freedom of Information Act request.
HUD approved the transfer despite a federal ban on tax dollars being used to fund any ACORN affiliate.
"None of the funds made available under this Act or any prior Act may be provided to the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), or any of its affiliates, subsidiaries, or allied organizations," according to the 2010 budget appropriations act.
Sign Up for the Politics Today newsletter!
HUD also made the grant despite a September 2012 report by the HUD Inspector General that concluded ACORN Housing, operating as Affordable Housing Centers of America, misspent funds from a $3,252,399 federal grant.
Because of the ban, the award to Mission of Peace appears to be a violation of federal law, according to Judicial Watch. MOP is one of numerous ACORN affiliates operating under new names, Judicial Watch spokeswoman Jill Farrell told the Washington Examiner.
"Barack Obama is truly the president from ACORN - as this illegal funding by his administration of these ACORN fronts shows," said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton in a statement.
"And at the same time we learn that the Obama administration is unleashing a vast new federal program to force 'low-income' housing into every single community in America, we find out that HUD is continuing illegally to fund ACORN spin-offs committed to carrying out Obama's dictums. This is not a coincidence."
More than 174 groups affiliated with ACORN were still active as of August 2012, and at least two besides Mission of Peace have received federal funds, according to a report by the Washington Free Beacon.
5:01 PM:
I am laughing out loud. Who else was in the grassy knoll? paranoid much? Conspiracy theories are grand good fun around a camp fire while toasting marshmallows, but here in reality we need real solutions for the mall. No offense, but nothing in your post offers anything but fear mongering conspiracy theories. While that is your right, it is not very helpful.
nothing in your post offers anything but fear mongering conspiracy theories. While that is your right, it is not very helpful.
8:15 PM, August 16, 2013
Kind of like Mary Chubb of MCU's offer to help the City any way they can, huh?
Next time anyone runs into Mary ask her thoughts about County/City merger and if that merger would include cities like Sunset Hills and Crestwood?
8:15 PM Blogger: Sort of like the untrustworthy SB-4 ?
Tom Ford
8:15 PM Blogger: Here you go, this should be right up your Ally (up-scale that is.)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2395235/EXCLUSIVE-Pictured-close-time-Scientologys-secret-alien-space-cathedral-landing-pad-New-Mexico-desert-return-followers-Armageddon-Earth.html
Tom Ford
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
If everyone on this blog speaks at a board of aldermen meeting, everyone would have to pack their overnight bags and have food brought in for at least two weeks; the mayor and board would be so confused and propagandized by all these remarks, the officials and all present would get out of Crestwood and buy homes in other municipalities and say "I can't take it anymore".
How in the "hey" did it ever come to the dog and pony show of the century in this median income city?
This Mall Issue needs to be settled with Miracle. Good luck to anyone who makes a clear statement that it is a yes or no as to whether or not we want a viable Mall - just a Mall. No more gradios big time department stores and just something sensible, nice and good for Crestwood. Would you please leave all your other crapola at home - we are tired of smelling it!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Family site, remember? Unless that,s normal for you, your history!
Tom Ford
Just curious, Mr. Ford, but the comment I made was taking the crude comment to task. Why would you remove it? I has horrified by that nasty reference, and I get removed??
that was meant to say "I was" horrified, please pardon the typo.
1:19 PM BLOGGER: words I do not permit on this blog, matters not the intent..
Tom Ford
So, what do you think about the Cardinals, the Rams, and the St. Louis Soccer Club. Just thought it would be a good time to change the subject. At least we can make a determination on the above, based on facts. We are not accomplishing anything if we keep talking about something that has been impossible to predict no matter what side each other are on.
I am sure that when Centrum gets tired of dealing with this and has no more money to do dish out to keep it, they will sell the Mall for nickels and dimes and take a loss on it - claim it on their taxes, and we in Crestwood will be s.o.l.
8:24 PM, August 17, 2013
So you think Centrum did us a favor when they bought the Mall? Do you think Centrum needs any help with tax breaks to build their proposal?
Cause if you think Centrum did us a favor you are wrong, they did it to make a 10% return on their investment, regardless if they get it with Tax Assistance or rental and then sale of the property.
10% is what they are demanding.
Ask Mary Chubb of the MCU if she and the MCU believe that 10% profits are ok even if the profits are due to tax assistance, or if should Centrum not be so greedy and take the 5% return they would get if they didn't get the tax assistance?
she wants to help, she can help by puttying pressure for a reduction in Centrums corp greed gotten by Corp Welfare.
8:24 PM Blogger: The Ram's can go anytime they want to, I am a Steelers fan (as well as ALL of my family.)
The Card's are always a favorite, but lately they are letting us down a bit.
The rest of them ? Well I won't be spending a dime to see them that's for sure, so.
Tom Ford
10:08 AM BLOGGER: Indeed that would be a great help !
Also it would help reduce the 10% plus tax rate that the great unwashed will never pay to go to an " entertainment center."
Tom Ford
Mr. Ford - Commercial developers don't do favors - they make investments to make money. There is nowhere in my comment that I even indicate they did us a favor so don't misinterpret please. However, they will have to do something with the property right? The own it - they are paying the price for it and are getting nothing so far as nothing is built. So if you know what they will be doing now, please let me know because I sure don't. To me, if they let it stand as is - they loose and it looks like that's what will happen. If they want to sell it, whose going to buy it. When the big fish have eaten up all the small but good fish, they end up eating scavenger fish. Centrum will sell it to a buyer who doesn't give a tinker's darn about Crestwood and we will have anyone and everyone filling the Mall with "dirt cheap" stores selling "dirt cheap" items.
Maybe I am just too lame to understand so therefore you tell me how this will play out.
PS - I don't care what happens to the Rams either.
"Centrum will sell it to a buyer who doesn't give a tinker's darn about Crestwood"
What makes you think Centrum gives a tinkers darn about Crestwood? If they did like you suggest wouldn't they out of caring, be willing to take a 5% return and build what ever they want without tax assistance?
Run centrum. run!,,,!,,,,!,,,!,
You just had a narrowest of escapes.
Troop's, this is as simple as it can be! Centrum saw a fire sale, they jumped, the balloon broke and the market is flat!
Now if we would only bail them out, they would once again "care" about Crestwood. Till thn were a nasty number on their balance sheet.
I pray they sell the property soon, that said, no one is going to pop for the ground under the current National economy.
Tom Ford
1:01 PM BLOGGER: Nothing wrong with " dirt cheap," take a look at the gumbo flats (Chesterfield.)
As you know the "dirt cheap" outlet malls are cleaning up, and by extension, Chesterfield.
I'll go got that over a bowling ally we don't need (we have had a very good one since 1967.)
Tom Ford
Umm, Centrum isn't guaranteed a 5% return without a TIF or a 10% return with a TIF, contrary to the misinformation perpetuated by those opposed to this project.
With the TIF, Centrum's projections (which need to be verified by a planner) showed a roughly 8 3/4% return. Without the TIF, the return was roughly 5%.
However, all of those projections about the return are assuming project success. Centrum could get a TIF and make only 1 or 2%, or could lose 5%, or could gain 15% if the market picks up. A TIF isn't a C.D., and the potential return to Centrum is just that--"potential". The project is a risky one either way, but it is slightly less so with a TIF.
Finally, only in Crestwood could a 40 year old bowling alley (which I do like and patronize) and an Aldi's (the worst grocery store chain, bar none) be cited as reasons not to develop Crestwood's decaying commercial corridor. Future generations will look back on the "judgment" of the sitting aldermen and wonder where things went so wrong.
11:57 PM Blogger:
"Finally, only in Crestwood could a 40 year old bowling alley (which I do like and patronize) and an Aldi's (the worst grocery store chain, bar none) be cited as reasons not to develop Crestwood's decaying commercial corridor. Future generations will look back on the "judgment" of the sitting aldermen and wonder where things went so wrong."
And thank God for it, it's called LOYALITY, look it up !
Tom Ford
@5:38am
It's not like taking a second spouse Tom.
Most people can (and do/will) patronize more than one grocery store, more than one restaurant, more than one gas station, more than one clothing store, and I imagine there is room for a traditional league/kids' birthday parties-style bowling alley and a bar/restaurant with some bowling lanes.
7:00 AM Blogger: Not at 10% plus tax rates unless their un knowing or just plain stupid !
You might get them ONCE out of curiosity, but after that, forget it.
Tom Ford
still looking for the Union Label
We could have a nice mall and it could happen; so why keep talking about a bowling alley, bar, & grocery store. Nobody is using those things as a gauge or measuring rod for new tenants. These things you mention in jest - but it isn't going to come to that and you know it - so why keep up the insane dialogue. You are just using up space and saying nothing.
People - we are not even on the first step to get started because nobody seems to understand that tenants don't buy what they cannot see! There is nothing to see because our board cannot make it happen.
Further, what good is our mayor when he can't get 8 people to agree on anything so important to the city. I think he inspires no one and basically hasn't done anything to speed up this most important issue. I think he is scared to make a decision. Pretty bad for someone with such a big title.
6:39 - nonsense. It's not the mayor's job to strong arm and get everyone to agree with him. To use that line of thinking, then why have a board? Why not have a king? We have elected officialS (emphasis on the S) to make decisions, to represent us (yes, I know, not all represent us and some come to the table with an agenda).
Insane dialogue? I would not ask for a signed lease. I would not even ask for a letter of intent. Let's make it easy for the developer. What about a letter of POSSIBLE interest? Even something on a post-it note that says yes, MAYBE a tenant might locate their if certain conditions are met? Do we have anything like this from the developer? From the prospective tenants he mentions, which so far has been an unnamed bowling alley and grocery store.
Imagine this - you go to a bank. You ask for a business loan. The banker asks if you have collateral and what product you plan to produce or sell. You tell him you don't really know, it might be this or it might be that but you don't know and you want the bank to start the loan process and once he does, he will get more information from you. Now think, how hard do you think that banker would laugh at you as he shows you to the door?
1:21 here - and yes I know, the comparison with the loan situation and developer isn't exact and I know that TIF is not a loan - BUT certain conditions should be met to satisfy the grantor of such an instrument - don't you think? Yes, I know, your response will be that we should send it to the planner.
1:21 pm As I understand it, going to the planner was suppose to be the next step in the process before the board nixed it.
Further, going to the planner PGAV isn't the same as going to a bank as your comparison states - to ask for a loan. The planner isn't the one who will be developing the property. PGAV was just another step in the line of progress.
But, if you want to talk about banks - a smart banker would not shut the door on a person who was sincere about starting a business and would work with anyone to find the best way to assist him/her starting a business. A bank would ask for a feasibility study first. But with this mall, the mayor and board negated that process to where this mall and developer cannot proceed any further without this next step.
Why didn't the city officials just say No new mall at the beginning of this issue. Then there would be no need to have PGAV do their work and we could just let the whole mall crumble. No preliminary meetings, no secrets or talk of those who supposedly broke the law by meeting in secret, and lastly the most important point for you 1:21 PM - no more talk of bowling alleys and grocery stores. And as you so clearly stated - no one would have to show anybody the door or be laughed at. How's that??????
That's wonderful but it doesn't address some issues.
1. I never compared PGAV to a bank and the loan process. I compared the entire process to getting a loan. Yes, PGAV is a step in the process.
2. What can PGAV plan or work with when the developer only has an unnamed grocery store and bowling alley? Can a plan be worked out with many unknowns?
Has the developer mentioned other tenants I am not aware of? I ask that sincerely - not to challenge or debate - I would like to know if he has.
At the first town hall meeting, the developer presented his concept for the site, which included an upscale bowling alley, an upscale gym, a Toby Kieth's restaurant, more restaurants, and perhaps a grocery store. These would be the possible tenants for the Macy's end of the site.
At that time, the developer indicated that there were no ideas for the Dillard's end other than perhaps a big box store, maybe a Menard's.
In his most recent comments, the developer has mentioned an upscale movie theater and grocery store, and indicated that the entertainment concept for the site was based on a development (Rosemont) located near O'Hare airport in Chicago.
Hope this helps.
Martha Duchild
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