TIF has a cost, please view a comment from Wichita, KS.
http://wichitaliberty.org/economics/tax-increment-financing-tif-has-a-cost/
Yes indeed there is no free money any more than there is a free lunch. There is always a string or two attached that should (when viewed) make the great unwashed sit up and take notice.
As I see it (if we did this) Centrum gets the 34 Million to pay themselves back and abate the EPA concerns that go along with a property built in the 60's (before we were "enlightened.")
They then construct an "entertainment center" that has zero chance of ever lasting the 23 years needed to pay off the TIF.
Centrum is happy, (they get their funds back,) we get a "renovation" of the ground that will have to be "renovated" again in a short time frame, the MCU marching kool aid drinkers band get's to save shoe leather, and were (Crestwood) left with the bag as usual.
Say what you will (sign your real name if your going to be nasty,) but I am firmly on the side of the four Alderman and the Mayor who, while taking flack for it know that this "entertainment" complex is a lame idea that has no chance of success.
Tom Ford
NO. 2019
Yes indeed there is no free money any more than there is a free lunch. There is always a string or two attached that should (when viewed) make the great unwashed sit up and take notice.
As I see it (if we did this) Centrum gets the 34 Million to pay themselves back and abate the EPA concerns that go along with a property built in the 60's (before we were "enlightened.")
They then construct an "entertainment center" that has zero chance of ever lasting the 23 years needed to pay off the TIF.
Centrum is happy, (they get their funds back,) we get a "renovation" of the ground that will have to be "renovated" again in a short time frame, the MCU marching kool aid drinkers band get's to save shoe leather, and were (Crestwood) left with the bag as usual.
Say what you will (sign your real name if your going to be nasty,) but I am firmly on the side of the four Alderman and the Mayor who, while taking flack for it know that this "entertainment" complex is a lame idea that has no chance of success.
Tom Ford
NO. 2019
posted by Crestwood Independent at 08:08
62 Comments:
If 3 + 4 = 11, thank a member of the teachers Union!
We need a Chuck E Cheese in Crestwood. Hope Centrum gets their TIF so we can have one.
Do you just surf the Internet Tom looking for anti-TIF propaganda?
Why don't you look to the other nearby municipalities to Crestwood that have used TIF instead of an opinion piece (no facts) from a Nebraskan?
Unlike the fire districts, Crestwood's police and fire districts are funded through the general fund, which is primarily funded through sales taxes . So the additional sales tax dollars generated by the development actually help the Crestwood police and fire departments. Who loses out on the property tax increments? Metro? The Zoo-Museum District? Cry me a river.
The only entity that most people around here care about is Lindbergh, and they aren't getting much in the way of property tax anyway from the mall property or the other properties along Watson that sit vacant. The longer that property sits vacant, the longer the entire tax base of Crestwood continues to erode, which is bad for the school district.
The only think the article got right is that TIF can be a zero sum game regionally . If Crestwood builds a shiny new development, less money will get spent in Kirkwood, Webster, Affton, SoCo, etc. Fair enough. Right now, most areas surrounding Crestwood played the TIF game, and have taken sales tax dollars from Crestwood. If you want to be "regionally friendly", then be anti-TIF and in favor of the City/County merger. If you want what's best for Crestwood, you should be pro-TIF for the mall property, and anti-city/county merger.
And please get your facts straight on the development Tom. The TIF amount is 22 million, not 34 million. CID and TDD funds are raised through straight sales taxes, and can only be used on certain improvements (they are not pure profit). While you don't think bars, restaurants, a movie theater and a high-end grocery store will work, plenty of people in and around Crestwood do.
If anyone on the board endorses a TIF for the property, it should be because they believe the redevelopment proposal is not only feasible, but warrants the TIF, not because everyone else is using TIF.
Those on the board who are not willing to proceed with a TIF likely have reservations about the project's feasibility (a concern that was shared by the planner, PGAV, in a memo to the board).
Anyone who attended the meeting in November 2012 where PGAV weighed in with their opinion on Centrum's redevelopment proposal would be correct in concluding that PGAV's assessment of the plan's viability was less than enthusiastic. PGAV concluded that for the project to have any chance at success, it would have to be able to secure a very specific mix of tenants.
Martha Duchild
If anyone on the board endorses a TIF for the property, it should be because they believe the redevelopment proposal is not only feasible, but warrants the TIF, not because everyone else is using TIF.
Agree, but it is also useful to look at our peer cities that are performing better than Crestwood, and ask why. Business as usual in Crestwood has resulted in significant stagnation. While the East/West Gateway Council study that everyone loves to quote criticized the regional use of TIF, they had to acknowledge the success of cities that have used TIF (the criticism comes from the fact that they "steal" sales tax dollars from their neighbors--something Crestwood did very well for decades).
Those on the board who are not willing to proceed with a TIF likely have reservations about the project's feasibility (a concern that was shared by the planner, PGAV, in a memo to the board).
Anyone who attended the meeting in November 2012 where PGAV weighed in with their opinion on Centrum's redevelopment proposal would be correct in concluding that PGAV's assessment of the plan's viability was less than enthusiastic. PGAV concluded that for the project to have any chance at success, it would have to be able to secure a very specific mix of tenants.
Those opposed to the development seem at times content to cherry-pick the opinions of PGAV they agree with, while ignoring those they disagree with. PGAV did express significant reservations about the project, but did suggest it could succeed if done properly. Why not let things proceed with planner/TIF commission/redevelopment agreement, but make final approval of the project contingent on a certain number of signed leases/commitments from tenants? Doesn't cost Crestwood anything to kick the tires and see if Centrum can deliver.
If the board members opposed to this project have fundamental issues with the project concept, why the dog and pony show with the environmental study? Is there any chance of your husband or the other 3 aldermen changing their votes on moving this project forward regardless of how a contemplated environmental study comes back--either worse, better, or as expected? If not, what is the point? Just issue a new RFP and be done with it.
Do the 4 board members opposed to the current project disagree with PGAV that big retail could work again at the mall site? What concept would the 4 board members opposed to the current project support, and what determinations have they made to see if their vision is viable? Saying no is the easy part. Having an alternative vision is the hard part. And it is a cop-out to say "it's the developer's property and his responsibility". If that was the case, Crestwood wouldn't have issued a RFP, and wouldn't have gotten involved. This property is very much Crestwood's issue to deal with too.
The PGAV opinion that I found most telling was this:
..."it is clear to us that many of the board's opinions and premises for action — or lack of it — on this project are not based on factual information."
12:11 PM Bravo for you for your clear and concise comment. I would love for you to comment more often. You and few others really got it right. What you said about Lindbergh was spot on.
Further what is wrong with stating that other cities have used a TIF if Tom can tell you where a TIF didn't work?
PGAV has been with Crestwood on different projects and has longevity with the city. However, as stated in the newspapers, because of all the negativity, John Brancaglione of PGAV has bowed out of this Mall issue. I read it and it was frankly stated that it is an embarrassment to have PGAV's name associated with this Mall issue because of all the rejection and negativity.
So let's just face it, the famous four won't budge and a mix of tenants or anything else isn't going to matter as long as there is a TIF PERIOD! The developer can make all the concessions asked for and as long as a TIF is requested - the four are stuck and no amount of "smoke" is going to get them to change their minds. Martha may talk about a very specific mix of tenants, but if a TIF is involved forget it. I see us going to the County in the future and for sure, if the four for the future decide to move away - rest assured they will stay out of Kansas!
12:11 PM BLOGGER: It's 34 MILLION TOTAL THAT CENTRUM WANT'S!
Tom Ford
@3:30 pm
No argument there. But they only want 22 million for TIF, which was the subject of the article you cited to. Many people seem to think the TIF amount is 34 million, and it's not. 6 million is from CID and 6 million is from TDD, which operate much, much differently than TIF. To the extent your blog is well-read, you should endeavor to clear up misinformation, and not perpetuate it. If you were just making the point that there was a total of 34 million in public assistance, than I apologize for reading too much into your post.
but it is also useful to look at our peer cities that are performing better than Crestwood, and ask why.
1st rule of real estate
Location, location, location.
Are other cities doing better than Crestwood, ones that have TIF's?
@5:29pm
Location is obviously key.
Yes, many cities are doing better than Crestwood, but obviously the question is not nearly as simple as whether or not they have used TIF or not--some would have been successful anyways (Des Peres, Chesterfield), but some have drastically improved their position through the use of TIF (Kirkwood, Maplewood).
And some TIF projects are doomed to fail even with TIF (Affton, Northwest Plaza--yes I know Northwest Plaza hasn't even opened yet, but it will fail).
The cities that have used TIF in St. Louis County, St. Charles County, and Jefferson County are numerous, and so far, they have avoided the ruination that everyone is convinced will befall Crestwood were this TIF request to be approved.
Martha,
Under what circumstances, if any, would you support the use of TIF for Centrum at the former Crestwood Mall site?
3:38 PM BLOGGER; To paraphrase Mr. Dirksen, "34 million here, 34 million there, before you know it, it's real money!"
No matter what, that''s ffar too much for a failure.
Tom Ford
9:17 PM All gloom and doom? So Tom if we fail in this development but do not have a TIF, are you saying that would be OK? I thought failure was failure! Since when is failure only failure with a TIF? So without a TIF failure is OK right? Further that says to me you feel we are only destined for failure with one. Which is not true? We are taking a chance either way but you don't care as long as "tiffy" isn't used. So talking about failure could go either way! Whether with or without a TIF - you just love sounding off. Therefore, let's just do nothing with the Mall. You would like to see it fail with a TIF and you are telling me we are better off leaving it be an eyesore. Mixed tenants - Nay with a YIF - Aye without a TIF.
8:27 PM August 19
I'll answer the question with a question: Why does it matter to you?
Martha Duchild
To 3:11 PM August 19:
Why pursue an environmental study by the state?
For starters, it's objective. Aside from that, it would provide valuable information regarding the extent and the composition of any environmental hazards on the property. It would also make recommendations as to any remediation that needs to be done, and the estimated costs.
If the city obtains this information, it would allow the board to make more informed decisions as to what redevelopment is viable for that location, and it would provide the city with all of the estimated costs associated with remediation. Knowing the remediation costs ahead of any negotiations will prevent any surprises (hello North County) once a TIF is approved.
There is no reason not to pursue this opportunity. Unfortunately, Centrum has put conditions on moving forward with this process, after initially agreeing to it at the work session.
As for PGAV's statement regarding the BOA's rejection of its services, it was a face-saving comment that had no basis in fact, as Mr. Brancaglione had no idea how the aldermen arrived at their decisions.
Martha Duchild
@11:01 am
You have been an outspoken opponent of the project, and you have the ear of at least one aldermen (I hope! :)), and likely three more.
You have raised several concerns concerning the development. I am curious if in your opinion there is a path that addresses your concerns where the development would be developed with TIF, which PGAV said was necessary to develop that site.
To me, several of the concerns that have been raised have been pretexual, and I don't see how a project with proposed tax increment financing ever meets your approval. Am I wrong?
11:48 AM BLOGGER: If you remember correctly brother Barket said he didn't need a TIF, so what's the hold up ?
As you know, Mr. Barket has refused the very thing (State EPA survey) he said he would agree to, so we are supposed to believe anything else reference this "mall .?"
Tom Ford
11:48 AM BLOGGER: If you remember correctly brother Barket said he didn't need a TIF, so what's the hold up ?
As you know, Mr. Barket has refused the very thing (State EPA survey) he said he would agree to, so we are supposed to believe anything else reference this "mall .?"
Tom Ford
If Centrum feels that their proposal is going to be successful and profitable, why don't they move forward with their development? They on the property, so why should they care what Alderman do and don't want to see there? If recall correctly, I think the storage place going in next to Mobile on Big Bend came and asked the City for tax breaks. They said no, and looks to me like they are going to break ground. Centrum can say this is what we want to build, this is what is going to be successful, and this is what we are going to do on our property, and we are going to do it without your help, right????
Martha's new-found silence speaks volumes--of course there is nothing Centrum can do or not do where she would support a TIF...tenants, amount of TIF, amount of asbestos...all red herrings...as soon as that evil acronym T I F was proposed, she was opposed, along with the half the board.
If that is your opinion, fine, but at least own up to it and show some candor and honesty. Don't look for a million reasons to oppose the Centrum development when you know good and well the one big reason you are opposed to it.
Drove by the old Northwest Plaza again today on the way back from the airport. Most of it is torn down. While Crestwood Mall sits they, seem to be figuring it out up north. Something just doesn't fit.
"Something just doesn't fit."
Yea, its you that doesn't fit. I understand St. Ann has houses for sale. Move there if NW Plaza and it's TIF's look so great to you.
9:52 Maybe you and yours should move to NW Plaza's area. Sometimes people make mistakes. Perhaps we should give Mr. Barket a chance to explain why he has had to go for a TIF. But I venture if it comes from Barket's mouth, you won't believe it anyway. Just like those explanations coming forth from the TIF naysayers, we don't believe you either. I would imagine if you would ask Barket to explain, he might be able to answer that question. But as for the No TIF group, it really doesn't matter to them if they build a homeless shelter or a Tash Mahal (? sp), if TIF is involved it is like saying a bad word which Tom doesn't allow and is often said by many.
"Martha's newfound silence" proves nothing other than she was busy yesterday and did not have time to post.
Your assumption is erroneous, and the irony is not lost on me that someone who is posting anonymously is (incorrectly) criticising me for my lack of candor and honesty.
I don't support Centrum's plan because I don't think it is viable, period. There is no point considering any tax incentives if you don't believe in the project's feasibility.
The previous poster is correct: If Centrum thinks they have a great plan, and they don't need a TIF (as they have said multiple times), then there is nothing stopping them from moving forward.
Martha Duchild
"I don't support Centrum's plan because I don't think it is viable, period. There is no point considering any tax incentives if you don't believe in the project's feasibility."
Fair enough--but I believe the question posed was would you support the use of TIF under any circumstances for this property--if Centrum procures a Menard's? A Cabela's? Some other tenant that you think makes the project viable?
In my opinion, the concept as a whole is not viable; adding or subtracting a tenant here or there has no substantive impact on the concept Centrum is selling.
Mr. Barket has indicated that the entertainment concept he is attempting to recreate in Crestwood is the one found at Rosemont in Chicago. It is easy to see why the entertainment concept has found success in Rosemont; the demographics and location of that city are what allows that project to be successful.
Crestwood is nothing at all like Rosemont, and I don't think it is reasonable to propose that success in Rosemont translates into success in Crestwood.
Furthermore, an entertainment concept depends almost exclusively on discretionary spending and would have to be unique enough to attract repeat visitors from communities outside of Crestwood. There is nothing unique about a bowling alley, a movie theater, a grocery store or a gym (or all of these things in one place) to draw the customer volume needed to make this concept successful.
Again, no reason to bring TIF into the discussion because I don't believe the concept is viable.
Martha Duchild
@1:43pm
It is a well-known fact that no one in Crestwood, Kirkwood, Sunset Hills, or Webster Groves has any discretionary income.
And people hate movie theaters and restaurants. That is why Ronnie's, Friday's, 54th Street Grill, El Maguey's and Joey Bs in South County are always dead on Friday and Saturday nights.
Whole Foods and Trader Joe's? No one goes to those places. Especially Trader Joe's. It's not like they had thousands of people engage in a letter-writing campaign trying to get the company to open a store in South County or anything.
You are completely right. Totally not a viable plan.
What then, pray tell, is the alternative? Thankfully, you spelled it out for us:
http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-i-2010-12-29-249769.112112-Fresh-innovative-approach-urged-for-redeveloping-Crestwood-Court.html
Oh, wait. Upon further review, despite being verbose, you actually provided no useful suggestions for tenants, and instead basically suggested we go ask some college professors and students what they think.
If you are not a part of the solution...
The point of the letter was to suggest that deas for what to do with property aren't the exclusive domain of developers, and that it might be interesting to seek new, innovative ideas from those who are not bound by any traditional redevelopment formulas.
It was meant as a suggestion to think outside the box, and going to the university community was one way to accomplish that.
It's a bit of a stretch to say that offering such an idea puts me in the "part of the problem" category.
Martha Duchild
Please help me understand the failure.
Is it the failure of Sol to sell the city, pgav etc on his proposal?
Is it the failure of Sol to compromise?
Is it the failure of Sol to stand by his promises?
Is the failure of Sol to present truthful evidence of need rather than want?
Thanks
@4:53
Nothing wrong with trying to be unique and think outside the box, but it becomes an issue when the bar is set too impossibly high for Centrum/Crestwood to clear--how unique does the development/tenants have to be? Developments can be successful without being completely innovative. And some things that are completely innovative end up flopping.
A moderately successful development that is fully leased and draws from south/county mid-county would work fine, and while Centrum's plans could use improvement, the bones of the plan seem to fit the bill--high end grocer, movie theater, and fun/unique bars/restaurants will get people in cities around Crestwood to come to Crestwood. Will the development be enough to get someone to drive from St. Charles or North County? Probably not, but I don't think it needs to be that much of a draw to be considered a success.
Striving to make that site the premier development in the St. Louis Metro area, while a nice aspirational goal, is not necessary.
"The point of the letter was to suggest that deas for what to do with property aren't the exclusive domain of developers, and that it might be interesting to seek new, innovative ideas from those who are not bound by any traditional redevelopment formulas."
Another thing to consider is that you are asking the developer to operate outside of their wheelhouse. If a developer like Centrum specializes in commercial real estate development, and they have cultivated various tenant relationships in the course of developing commercial property, I expect them to be able to cobble together a decent commercial development. When I start making demands for them to incorporate housing and other things they don't typically do, I think you are increasing the likelihood of failure. You get a bunch of starry-eyed college kids involved, and you wind up with something like New Town in St. Charles that sounds good in theory, but doesn't seem to work well.
5:02 PM BLOGGER: YES, to 2,3, and 4.
Tom Ford
Anonymous said...
"Something just doesn't fit."
Yea, its you that doesn't fit. I understand St. Ann has houses for sale. Move there if NW Plaza and it's TIF's look so great to you.
9:52 PM, August 20, 2013
WOW, did I say anything about TIF? I asked a simple question as to why Northwest Plaza is being redeveloped and our deadmall is not. I suggested that our elected officials might want to check and figure out how they are doing this up north. Poster 9:52 PM, August 20, 2013 what DOES NOT look great to me is a derelict deadmall in the heart of our city that is a cancer which is starting to spread.
Do you mean our current Alderman? Or the former Alderman, that are trying to push the development?
Hello everyone - I am sending you a message from God. Development can and will happen. However, you need to remember what is going on around you. People are building and buying homes further and further out - to the point where - all we are hearing about is the new malls. Where are they? In Chesterfield and other cities that are new; you know like Crestwood use to be.
We will not ever have those department stores of yester-year. They are going where the newer generations are living! Hello! Where would you go to develop? So what do you think we can expect for crying out loud? You are NOT, going to have the totally idealistic Mall in Crestwood like before. It Ain't gonna happen!!!!
URBAN SPRAWL IS THE NAME OF THE GAME. Developers know where the money is and the big commercial stores left Crestwood - for a reason - they are moving out where new cities are being built. So try to remember that what we had before cannot be here again - the dollars they invest will not make them the big profits here like they had years ago.
You are dead set against the development because you refuse to accept the fact that the profits made in the past in Crestwood are not the profits that can be made in Chesterfield, and the Valley and more. That's all people are talking about; Huge, massive commercial buildings in the new areas where homes are being built; yes, just like they did with Crestwood. Get use to it, accept it and swallow your dang pride. After you understand what and why it isn't working here anymore - then - Work together and if the only way we can make it is to allow the developer to do their thing, give your input work as a team and get it done. Why you insist on cutting your noses off to spite your face is beyond me.
Crestwood can create a nice mall with sensible commercial entities. I am sick of you guys always talking Oh No - not another bowling alley, not another movie theatre, etc. etc. not another grocery store!!!!! OK lets at least start doing the ground work before we start picking who will be interested. Get it going darn you guys; stop bitching about this, and that and every other thing. We have lots of smart people in this city - now lets start the ball rolling for a change. Crestwood had a great Mall - that was then; this is now!
Crestwood can pass a TIF and fail
or Crestwood cannot pass a TIF and fail.
The only difference I see is $35 Million.. adding to the price of failure.
The problem is Crestwood and it's leadership not the TIF talk..
"The only difference I see is $35 Million.. adding to the price of failure."
Nice optimistic opinion. I'm guessing you are above the age of 60.
7:42 AM Blogger: Are you conceding a fact that to be "smart" you have to be above the age of 60 ?
Tom Ford
"Hello everyone - I am sending you a message from God"
Between this post and MCU, it looks like Jesus really wants that TIF for Centrum!
You are dead set against the development because you refuse to accept the fact that the profits made in the past in Crestwood are not the profits that can be made in Chesterfield, and the Valley and more.
WRONG. Sorry God.
Some of us are against the plan because ... no specific tenants have been named with the exception of a Toby Keith urban cowboy type establishment and they walked away. Maybe they figured there weren't enough line-dancers in Crestwood, who knows?
Maybe there aren't enough specifics.
Maybe some of us feel that the development as offered with an unnamed bowling alley and grocery store might be harmful to our existing bowling alley and grocery stores.
Sorry God. I don't mean to blasphemous. I know this TIF is important to you since you wrote that blog post and MCU is involved.
8:39 AM BLOGGER: Correct (minus the blaspheamy.)
Tom Ford
After you understand what and why it isn't working here anymore - then - Work together and if the only way we can make it is to allow the developer to do their thing, give your input work as a team and get it done. Why you insist on cutting your noses off to spite your face is beyond me.
Ok God. I'm trying to understand. You say work together but in the same sentence You say "if the only way we can make it is to allow the developer to do their thing" so basically we should give the developer whatever they want? Is that is what is most important to You? I've heard a few people in this town say that - that we should give the developer whatever they want. Maybe it was God speaking through them?
"Maybe some of us feel that the development as offered with an unnamed bowling alley and grocery store might be harmful to our existing bowling alley and grocery stores."
Maybe some of us don't understand commercial real estate development, and that tenants are generally not named until the TIF Commission phase...if the Board doesn't approve of the tenants, then vote the plan down.
@7:47 am
While there are certainly numerous wise and enlightened people above the age of 60, as far as percentages go, those over the age of 60 in Crestwood have been the most vocal opponents of the plan (just look at the ages of the pro/anti development speakers during the public comment phase of the next BOA meeting). They seem to be the most afraid of change, and want development to happen in Crestwood like it did 40 years ago, and don't seem to realize how much the world has changed recently.
8:45 Tom - LOL!
9:04 - you are so right. I don't understand commercial development. I am one of the unwashed masses - I should be flogged and my vocal chords ripped out. I should have no say. Only those who are experts should have a say.
For example, I am not a meteorologist. Therefore, I should not express my thoughts about the weather. I should keep my mouth shut. I'm not trained enough to tell you if it's hot or cold or rainy.
I'm not a food critic either. I can't tell you if a meal is bad or good.
I'm not a civil engineer. I can't tell you if that bridge is falling apart.
Only experts should be allowed to voice their opinions!
@9:13 am
You are forming your opinions prematurely. You are deciding you don't like the tenants without knowing who the tenants will be. It would be like complaining about a meal before you have seen it or tried a bite.
The ultimate ridiculousness is that the owner of the Crestwood Bowl, which every anti-development person in the city cites as a reason to oppose the project, is in favor of the development. Considering how long he has been in business and how successful he has been, if he is not worried about the competition, then you probably shouldn't be either.
LOL! I don't know who the tenants will be. Do you know who the tenants will be? Does Centrum know who the tenants will be?
An unnamed bowling alley and grocery store were mentioned as tenants. I'm simply forming my premature opinions based on what was stated.
If Crestwood Bowl is in favor of the development, that's great.
I hope this works out. I hope my premature opinions are wrong. I hope that the mall site becomes a successful development and is complimentary to the other businesses in Crestwood.
I will make this observation. It appears those in favor of the development are in favor of moving forward and not necessarily the plan itself. Why you ask? The plan lacks specifics. What can they truly rally about? Only action - no one knows who the tenants will be or what this plan will look like in the end. There are far too many unknowns. Of course you will say that the unknowns will become better known once the planner became involved. Maybe, I don't know.
I wonder does any remember conversations and discussions that happened before the existing mall was built? were they similar to the ones we are having now? Was every one on board? 60 year olds please input.
@10:32
Astute observations--I agree with you that many of those wanting to move forward want to move the plan along to see if Centrum can produce viable NAMED tenants. If at the end of the day Centrum cannot, then it is what it is, and I think many of those who have been labeled pro-development would vote no. I think it would be a sad day for Crestwood though if Centrum cannot convince tenants to locate here in a brand new development.
Why would anyone want to be named a tenant when nothing IS THERE TO SHOW THEM. THE MAYOR AND BOARD HAVE "NIXED" EVERYTHING SO FAR!
I can tell you that everybody has moved on to new STORES AND PLACES IN NEW MALLS. SIMPLE REASON: because people are buying houses further out. Remember when Crestwood was considered remote? I do. Any body that lived there was better than we in the City of St. Louis.
Same thing now! Some couldn't find Chesterfield if they had a map and directions. I sure don't know where it is; but bigger and nicer homes are being built there so that's where the developers are building. But it doesn't mean we cannot have something nice built here. But it DOES MEAN that the bigger department stores have moved on also.
But the hate mongers that have no common sense want commitments from establishments even before they see what is being built. WHY? BECAUSE THUS FAR NOTHING IS BEING BUILT - THANKS TO YOU IDIOTS. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT? I GUESS YOU WOULD COMMIT TO THE NEW MALL, JUST BY LOOKING AT AN EMPTY ONE - OH YEAH SURE!!!!!!
1:55 temper temper! You call people hate mongers and then you refer to them as idiots, WHILE SHOUTING! Perhaps a prayer service with MCU will help calm you down.
1:09 PM Blogger: A trip to ? would help the MCU if you ask me.
Who invited these people to this party anyway ? Why should anyone listen to a "rent a mob" that has no roots in Crestwood ?
Tom Ford
1:09 pm Temper be darned - I called them idiots, and that's my opinion; Too bad you seem to think (what was that phrase used by someone running for President) a "kinder, gentler" forum is better? You see it your way and I see it my way. I don't need a prayer service with MCU - I just care about our city and what is going on (or Not) going on - than you do. If you are satisfied with a new mall that is going nowhere - maybe you should raise your voice also!
That's Crestwood debate for you.
5:04 reminds of the past in Crestwood. I was there. BOA members, mayors, and staff of the past thought they were golden. They patted themselves on the back telling each other how great they were. Going back several decades, a lot of arrogance shown to residents living here and businesses that wanted to locate here. The big secret most everyone knew was Crestwood basically ran itself. Once the mall was in place thanks to Webster Groves saying no and the residential and commercial zoning was in place, the city ticked along. The brilliant golden boys and girls of yesteryear weren't as brilliant as they thought they were. How's that for "kindler gentler"?
9:38 I do not consider the boys and girls from yesteryear golden and those are your words not mine - but I do agree with you this time.
The officials and many residents just thought they were golden and like the Maffia "untouchable". They made their share of mistakes; arrogance was shown to residents but also by residents because they all got too full of themselves.
And no they were never kinder, gentler. The biggest mistake was that we had it too good. l. instead of floating a bond issue for the community center, it was "pay as you go with no bonded indebtedness". That is all we heard. Big deal! All that money we could have saved floating a bond issue because the bonds would have been paid off by now, and all that sales tax money could have been used for keeping Crestwood alive and current. Now that the economy is in "the soup", Ha! What now?
2. We wanted more population in Crestwood and decided to annex by making a deal people could not refuse. We pay bundles of money for that.
Kinder, Gentler? I don't think so. We had people who were so picky on the P&Z Board and other boards too - that thought since we had soooo much money it would stay around forever.
But I am afraid our situation got worse. Also, I do agree the Mayor's job is not to control what the board's decisions are. But he should implore them to either one way or another - unite to make a decision. This mall issue has been hanging because there is no unification on this board. But the mayor thinks it is OK to break a tie. I would make the board hash it out on their own.
So, 9:38 PM maybe we are poles apart from agreeing with each other, and then again maybe not so much! I think I want what you want in a lot of ways.
I hope you agree that we cannot keep going on like this. If this Country is smart enough to send a man to the moon, why can't these 8 people make a decision? I apologize if I loose my temper but people and issues are making us a laughing stock! That angers me.
All 8 aldermen have been making decisions, and continue to do so.
Their lack of consensus does not equate to an inability to make a decision.
Each alderman has a different idea of what constitutes "moving forward" on the mall redevelopment. Please keep this in mind before you criticize your elected representatives for being unable to make a decision.
Martha Duchild
Martha - how long does it take for elected representatives to decide? It's not as if there hasn't been sufficient time to do so! I just want to know that there will be a decision in my lifetime. You in all good conscience have to admit that the people have to wonder and feel it's never going to happen.
Did you read my post? I'll repeat what I said: elected officials are making decisions. Please do not conflate lack of consensus with inability to make a decision.
I have tried to highlight the distinction for you.
As redevelopment issues come before the board, the aldermen make their decisions and vote. Based on the results of those votes, the developer then decides what his next move is.
Thanks to the deliberative process, and the patience required for that process to produce results, the option of having the state DNR do an environmental analysis on the property has been proposed.
If the board moves forward with this, not only will it demonstrate that they have consensus on the DNR study, it will also lay the groundwork for more targeted discussions about what tenants are feasible for that site (based on the results of the study).
Keep in mind, it's only been since November of 2012 that Centrum presented its redevelopment concept to the board. I would much rather wait for the board to make a thorough, deliberate decision rather than rush to judgement due to pressure from those who are impatient.
Martha Duchild
@9:59pm
There is no correlation whatsoever between the results of the environmental study and tenant feasibility. NONE.
I am actually for moving forward with the environmental study, but don't try to act like it has anything to do with what tenants will or won't work in the development.
I wholeheartedly disagree. The environment most definitely has an impact on construction, whether it's buildings, sewers, parking lots, or landscaping.
Martha Duchild
@2:00
Of course "The environment most definitely has an impact on construction, whether it's buildings, sewers, parking lots, or landscaping." I said it had nothing to do with tenant feasibility, and maybe you agree, since you didn't really mention tenant feasibility in your 2:00pm post.
Whether an environmental study reveals 1 ton of asbestos needing to be removed or 100 tons of asbestos needing to be removed, it doesn't change whether a Whole Foods or an AMC theater are viable tenants. Site remediation (including environmental), of course impacts multiple facets of construction, but does't change what tenants will work in the development. What possible conclusion good an environmental study reach that would impact construction?
That the whole property is actually built on a swamp and not suitable for construction? Unlikely, given the 50+ years of commerce that has occurred there.
Before the developer can seek tenants, he needs to know what physical spaces will be available to lease. Before the physical spaces can be established, the developer needs to know how much remediation can or should be done, which buildings can or should be left as is and/or retrofitted, which buildings can or should be demolished, and how much tax credits are needed and available for remediation.
I have no idea what the analysis will reveal, all I am saying is that virtually any tenant can move into a "pad ready space." The same cannot be said for a tenant that needs to fill an existing space.
Martha Duchild
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