Crestwood courts are for sale, announced last night at the BO meeting.
It seems that a new owner will move that once proud mall forward in the future.
I will have more grist for the mill tomorrow, so stay tuned.
More on the reported sale of the Mall. It seems as though the partners and the owners have decided to put the property up for sale. Why, well we really don't care, do we ?
One thing that is interesting is that it has been told to me that the owners had a study done by a private firm that came to the following conclusions.
1. An entertainment center would not work as there is no major highway near the project.
2. The land is best suited for a park.
Now that said, it will be an extremely expensive project to raise the property to street height which will be needed for any out building retail shop's if they hope to be seen from the street. Then there is the EPA issues to deal with, so only time will tell where this is going.
As for me, I think a combination of a condo or apartment setting with a lake and park would be great. It is the least expensive option that I see, and we still get the tax revenue. What do you think ?
As always there will be no personal insults, or name calling without your real name attached, and please let's leave the emotion and politics out of our responses.
Tom Ford
NO. 3026
I will have more grist for the mill tomorrow, so stay tuned.
More on the reported sale of the Mall. It seems as though the partners and the owners have decided to put the property up for sale. Why, well we really don't care, do we ?
One thing that is interesting is that it has been told to me that the owners had a study done by a private firm that came to the following conclusions.
1. An entertainment center would not work as there is no major highway near the project.
2. The land is best suited for a park.
Now that said, it will be an extremely expensive project to raise the property to street height which will be needed for any out building retail shop's if they hope to be seen from the street. Then there is the EPA issues to deal with, so only time will tell where this is going.
As for me, I think a combination of a condo or apartment setting with a lake and park would be great. It is the least expensive option that I see, and we still get the tax revenue. What do you think ?
As always there will be no personal insults, or name calling without your real name attached, and please let's leave the emotion and politics out of our responses.
Tom Ford
NO. 3026
posted by Crestwood Independent at 18:00
95 Comments:
Well...we have $40,000 of extra revenue generated by canning the dog catcher I propose we put this surplus to use and make Centrum an offer.
8:03 PM BLOGGER: No, it's more like $61,000.00, so......
Tom Ford
I'm sure buyers will be falling all over one another to submit offers to Centrum, especially after seeing the way Crestwood treats its current and prospective businesses.
Just drive up and down Watson and look at all of the "For Sale or Lease" signs.
I wonder what gets sold first? The old mall, or the old gas station at Watson/Sappington?
12:45 AM Blogger: Well, just drive down ANY main street in America, you will see the same thing!
Thank the current regime for the economic downturn, bot Crestwood, and it's only going to get worse thanks to obamacare!
Tom Ford
Crestwood no longer has the traffic flow to attract some ones hard earned money to invest in a small business.
The only reason Culvers is a success is because everyone thinks it's in Kirkwood...
"Well...we have $40,000 of extra revenue generated by canning the dog catcher"
And I'm sure we will get MUCH more after everyone takes Mr. Roby's advice and gives up their alderman and mayoral monies...right? Right? They would give up the money they get, since they're all employed in regular jobs, right? And they are serving because they want to give back to their community, right? After all, it's the honorable thing to do if Crestwood is struggling so badly they need to fire people left and right, SURELY the money they get for serving could be better spent elsewhere, or maybe on an employee's salary, to save someone's job, right? I'm SURE every alderman and the mayor are scrambling around RIGHT NOW to make sure they do not get paid one more penny to serve the community they so dearly love. Right? And I'm also sure there's a logical explanation for why they didn't do that BEFORE employees started getting "canned", as that poster so eloquently and coothly put it, as a show of solidarity and honor. right..crickets.
So basically they paid someone to determine the obvious.
They could have just spent 20 minutes...driving around and saved a few bucks.
Actually I think Obamacare will help Crestwood..resellit shops are seeing an upswing in sales.
Sounds like the rumor of a tax-exempt retirement community (Luthern Senior Services, Bethesda, etc) might be true. Hmm, now what's a bigger drain on city services, that or a TIF funded entertainement complex? The Post-Dispatch just did an article on this issue over the weekend. Good thing the CA had the vision to get that smaller rescue truck.
Oakville just got a section 8 senior retirement facility..they are not happy.
Thank goodness the city did not move forward on a plan that the professionals have now confirmed was not feasible.
Martha Duchild
12:45 am 11/14 You sound just like my husband almost word for word. He is sooo crazy nuts about what is going to happen to that "old gas station" and that old mall I can scream. Further all the empty stores!!!!! He is like a broken record.
I agree with Tom 5:52 am 11/14. Only Tom blames it on the double whammy of economic downturn and Obamacare. I keep saying the same thing that if you look all over you will see that the economic problem is not just in Crestwood. But after I hear this almost every day i.e.(see this empty store, see that empty store, or we don't have Kentucky Fried Chic. anymore -when he never liked KFC when it was here) and soo, I am ready to drop kick somebody!
The only thing that I can think to grace us with a solution is "manna from heaven". Let's pray that God performs a miracle particularly in Crestwood.
Oh! I forgot one thing - the mall is going to be Section 8 Housing. OMG
Does this mean we can now move forward with a plan that the professionals consider "feasible?"
10:54 AM BLOGGER: No , the mall will not be section 8 housing.
11:42 AM BLOGGER: Depends on the plan my friend.
Tom Ford
Thank goodness the city did not move forward on a plan that the professionals have now confirmed was not feasible.
Martha Duchild
What are you talking about? No professionals weighed in on the plan after the initial PGAV memo. PGAV blasted your husband and the rest of the Board for not understanding redevelopment when they withdrew their name from further consideration.
Enjoy your pyrrhic victory of defeating the best chance Crestwood had to put something there was revenue-producing. As previous posters noted, hopefully we don't get not for profit senior apartments (or regular apartments for that matter).
I wouldn't expect a quick sale. I would expect it to sit there vacant for a time. Fenton can't get any traction to build anything where the old Chrysler plant was, and they don't have to knock anything else down. No one who expects a TIF would approach Crestwood obviously.
Finally, Howl at the Moon, one of the tenants that was roundly mocked at meetings that Centrum wanted to bring in, is going to be an anchor of Ball Park Village now. It will be nice to walk by the place and see it packed every time I go to a Cards game.
Gee, what would Mayor Greg Roby do about the empty stores up and down Watson Road? Maybe Carol Wagner can fill us in.
And then Roby, Beasley and Duncan can explain why they as our wizards of smart, didn't offer to do away with their Alderman pay when they were on the BOA. Or maybe they should give it back retro actively, I like that idea, and be sure to include former Mayor Roy.
The 2014 race for mayor is now in full swing.
Anonymous said...
Poster 2:20 PM, October 30, 2013
Word on the commercial real estate side of the street says it's an not-for-profit (tax exempt) institutional user with chunks being parceled off for CVS, and some other out-lots
7:22 PM, October 30, 2013
Looks like this guy called it!
2:20 PM, November 14, 2013
One of the most constructive posts I've seen on this blog!
As for me, I think a combination of a condo or apartment setting with a lake and park would be great. It is the least expensive option that I see, and we still get the tax revenue. What do you think ?
Perhaps some nice tax exempt senor apartments that can run our brand new rescue truck into the ground. Can't wait!
What would Wagner do?
What would Beezley do?
What would Duncan do?
So in a nutshell.. we have a crumbling monolithic boat anchor bleeding us dry.. being watch by a BOA with the deer in the headlights look.
Meanwhile bills need to be paid.
And money needs to be found to do it.
did I miss anything?
Looks like the 'sleeping cop' is the smartest guy in our city government to me... at least he knows what the heck he's doing.
9:26 PM Blogger: Perhaps you too will become a "senior," time will tell.
Until then please remember to show some respect for the older folks, I am sure they have earned it.
Tom Ford
What would Mayor Foote do?
It will be interesting to see what the next mayor intends to do....
To 2:20 PM Nov. 14:
Yes, professionals did weigh in after PGAV's unsolicited ~$2,000 preliminary report. Angelo Gordon recently hired a consultant of their own to determine the best use for the property. (One wonders why this step wasn't taken before they partnered with Centrum to purchase the mall property).
The mayor reported the findings at the last board meeting. The general conclusion was that the property would be difficult to redevelop as a retail site due to its location away from a major highway. The consultant concluded that the best fit for the property would be a park.
What I find interesting is your opinion that Angelo Gordon's decision to sell the property is somehow my "pyrrhic victory." Although I appreciate your use of descriptive vocabulary, the assertion you made is a bit dramatic (and wholly untrue).
Martha Duchild
9:58 AM BLOGGER: Could we say " sequespedialian verbosity," or is that too much for them to look up?
Tom Fprd
3:48 11/14 You should be able to figure out by now that there is no mayor, present, past or future that is going to be able to get the mall rockin and rollin like in the past.
It would be nice if you could shut up and not continue the blame game of people who are or will be responsible for its demise or miraculous ascent if it returns.
Before anybody can figure out the mall's future use, some company or commercial land development is going to need to figure out how much it is going to cost just to alleviate the asbestos problem. That cost will exceed the national debt.
No mayor and/or board of aldermen can make that happen.
12:45 11/14 "the way Crestwood treats its current and prospective businesses".? When you say that, you are getting out of hand and going over the top. That's how rumors start! We are treating new prospective businesses and current ones, as always according to the code book. If you are saying it is because we have no mall - every city in St. Louis County that is doing well does not have a mall! But mall or no mall, there are businesses closing all over the place - it seems you just like to hammer on Crestwood, admit it!
Of course, the mere fact that this whole nation is up in arms and has been in an economic downturn wouldn't factor into this issue in your mind, would it!
First before we can do something with the mall property, we have to find someone who is willing to invest an enormous amount of money into it, and take a big gamble on its success. Short term I don't see it happening soon. But to say it is anybody's fault that it is gone, doesn't make sense.
We were the first mall! And the owners did a great job but it's the sign of time travel. The old gets older, and children become adults. Or to take it a step further, we have urban sprawl where housing stock is being built further out and young people can get very reputable homes for less money and that is where developers "develop" and commercial entities follow. Build it and they will come. More homes, more people and then big malls and commercial shops.
Crestwood had its hey day, west county now has there's as well as chesterfield, but some day, they will have the same delimma down the road. New technology, new avenues to develop, and that is where the people will go.
Urban sprawl means more highways being built, more economy and better access. "The beat goes on".
I want a new mall as bad as anybody else. I depended on that mall for almost everything I purchased. Now that I am old, I want it even more. I don't want to go miles away for anything. But I am not young anymore. I wouldn't think of going all the way out to Chesterfield and even West County. But not the young. Now the young can drive Granny out to West County, and Chesterfield and that is the only way I will go and that is fine with me. And The Beat Goes On.
@9:58 a.m.
Clearly the best use for commercially zoned property along a 5-lane road surrounded by retail and commercial space and backing up to industrial space is a park. Yeah, no.
And Crestwood can't even afford to maintain the parks we have. Aquatic center? Deferred maintenance. Community center? An embarrassment for the most part. Spellman Park? The City got rid of the tennis court because it was in such bad shape and they couldn't afford to fix it.
Yep, I'm sure Crestwood can afford to handle 50 more acres of park land.
I trust PGAV's opinion as independent consultants. I'm not sure if the mayor and BOA are just naive, don't care anymore, or are happy to have anything there without the use of a TIF, but perhaps they should be a little skeptical of Angelo Gordon's hand-picked consultant coming back and saying that the best use of the property was for park land. I'm guessing that is an attempt to grease the wheels for whatever the next proposal is (senior apartments?).
The one thing that the consultant did get right was that big box retail won't work there (which PGAV said as well). However, while noting the numerous difficulties with the site, PGAV said the proposed entertainment complex had the best chance of success.
Sorry for assuming Martha that you were happy that the Centrum/Angelo Gordon entertainment complex idea fell through. I must have misconstrued your dozens of comments at BOA meetings, in newspapers, and on this forum the last few months. I thought you were against the project for some reason. Sorry again for the misunderstanding.
I'm all for Centrum,,,paying off the former employee who won a court case against them.
I wonder what Mayor Minor would do?
By the time George W. Bush left office, he was unpopular, and people were looking for a change. They elected Barack Obama, who talks a good game, looks good in a suit, seems like a nice guy, and isn't George W. Bush, but as people found out, doesn't really govern very well.
While the analogy isn't perfect, because Bush couldn't have run again, I think if you insert "Roy Robinson" for Bush in the paragraph above, and "Jeff Schlink" for Obama in the paragraph above, the comparison is apt. Unlike Obama though, hopefully the Crestwood voters have the good sense not to re-elect a nice guy who doesn't know how to govern.
I don't know who the other candidates are, but it's time for a fresh face. Hopefully the challenger isn't a "Romney".
Nice to hear from you again Mrs. Robinson
Aside from the claim that Roy is more likable, and that is debatable in most circles, what difference would there be now if he had won the election?
We would have PGVA for a planner? Alderman Tennyson voted against the hiring of a planner the last time the BOA had a vote. A vote which the Mayor gave every indication of passing with a tie breaker if needed.
So what was Alderman Dan up to with his first ever no vote for a planner? How would that have been different if Roy or Roby were mayor? Or did he do so to prevent the Mayor from breaking a tie and the City hiring a planner? Strange thing about politics.
If Roy was the Mayor would the court ruled in favor of Centrum? Would they be trying to developing the mall with a court order against their funds? How would that look? What would Roy have done since there are some who still carry his water?
Would the city have a CA who was not doing his job and addressing the short fall of income by reducing staff where need be with OUT a reduction in services? I doubt it. History doesn't hold that type of action to be the case with Roy. He was a fair private eye who could snoop into peoples personal information, but fire someone, he would never have allowed the CA to do so.
So what would Crestwood look like if Roy had won?
We'd have two too many excursive Secretary's that we could not afford.
A animal control officer we could not afford.
A finance dept that cost us more than out sourcing their work will.
I'm sure some people miss ole Roy but the majority of the voters in Crestwood do not. Or he would still be in office. Get over it.
wer'r darn lucky to have a person like Mr. Schlink who is willing to put himself on the firing line for Crestwood.
Be honest and ask yourself if YOU would be willing to subject your family to the remark innuendo and all the other things that come with the job.
Before you answer, please allow me to remind you that only three people have ever signed their real ame to a post on this Blog.
That's right most people talk but few do, Mr. Schlink is a doer, don't forget it.
Tom Ford
1:15 PM Nov. 15
While I accept your apology, signing your real name to it would have lent it a bit more sincerity.
Martha Duchild
'Firing line....' ..., Poor choice of words for the people who got fired.
@1:07 PM, November 16, 2013
Thank you MR Obvious!
1:07 PM BLOGGER: No, it's not the same thing, but you knew that!
Tom Ford
Poster 1:15 PM, November 15, 2013
Loved your post. The "NO" crowd has no answer as to what the plan is. They think by cutting the Dog Catcher everything will be OK. Meanwhile, the cancer sits in the heart of our commercial district. It has started to grow and will continue to do so. What will our CA cut next? Not much left.
Sales tax revenue continues to drop. We can't give our employees any kind of wage adjustment. Streets are falling apart. But hey, we cut the Dog Catcher and said no to TIF...although we have no idea what TIF is our actually how it works.
Poster 2:20 PM, November 14, 2013 also had it spot on... what a awesome pyrrhic victory!
3:53 PM BLOGGER: When will your group understand we do not own the property?
We can't tell them what to do with it, only what not to do, get it?
We don't need a plan, they do, and so far they haven't put forward anything that merits one thin dime of tax increment funding from anybody, much less us!
Get over the emotion and try some critical thinking for a change. Animal control is out, and so will be any other amenity that is A duplication of services.
Tom Ford
If we tell then what not to do aren't we directing them towards what they can do?..so we are in effect telling them to do as we say even though they own the property...?..
5:27 PM BLOGGER: No, we're only telling them what we will support, and what we won't.
Remember When an adult store wanted to come in? I do, we didn't allow it, did we, no we didn't. Was that within our rights? You bet it was.
Tom Ford
If liberals blame GWB for ever problem that Obama is facing, then I'm going to blame Roy for all the problems Jeff is facing.
Ah I see centrum wanted to open a 'Adult MegaPlex..' on their land. tut tut..
I think they were given certain reassurances before the bought the property..
Anyway lets look at reality ..what do we do next?
6:59 AM Blogger: Give it up before you look even more foolish than before!
Centrum had nothing to do with the "adult store," this happened prior to Centrum arrived.
Now for future reference if your going to just waste MY bandwidth with inane remarks designed to be "cute" I am going to drop you from the program, so............
Tom Ford
To 3:53 Nov. 17th
How can you make the assertions you have made?
Please tell us how you know with any degree of certainty that the streets that are "falling apart" will never be fixed.
Please tell us how you know that employees will not see a salary adjustment, especially considering the budget for next year has not even been presented to the board.
Please tell us which alderman you have spoken with at length and can rightfully conclude that they don't know what a TIF is or how it works.
Martha Duchild
Martha,
In this campaign season, facts aren't important. What's important is finding something that will stick, regardless if it is fact or not, and running on it.
If a rumor or lie is repeated enough times, there is a strong chance that it will become truth in the minds of some.
Ok let the candidates state what they intend to do...The blame game gets old..
and Apathy grows by the hour with the electorate.
The candidates have a forum right, here, all they have to do is email me their position paper and I will post it verbtem.
Now, who is going to be first?
Tom Ford
Tim,
I agree with your comments regarding the campaign season. Having said that, it never hurts to ask people to back up their assertions with facts.
Martha Duchild
Campaign season? There are no declared candidates yet.
Also, regarding the budget--why hasn't the BOA seen a copy of it yet? It is within 45 days of the beginning of the next fiscal year (yesterday was deadline).
CRESTWOOD CHARTER, Section 7.2 BUDGET.
(a) SUBMISSION; CONTENTS - At least forty-five (45) days prior to the
beginning of each fiscal year, the City Administrator shall submit to the Board of
Aldermen a proposed final budget and accompanying written narrative. The budget shall
provide a complete financial plan of all city funds and activities for the ensuing fiscal year
and, except as required by law or by this Charter, shall be in such form as the City
Administrator deems desirable or the Board of Aldermen may require. The budget shall
indicate in separate sections:
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/city-departments/administrative-offices/finance/annual-budgets/
Are you all going to take this Charter violation in stride? Where are all of the City Administrator apologists?
Tim, as an Alderman, I expect you will hold the CA accountable and ask for his immediate submission of the proposed budget in accordance with the Charter.
A draft of the budget is online under the BOA work session agenda.
4:26 PM BLOGGER: Did the 4:39 blogger take the wind out of your sails or what?
Clearly you don't like the C/A however he is doing his job, so what else you got.
Tom Ford
PS: If your going to toss out comments like you did, sign your name or save your manicure.
Tom Ford
Nice to see the proposed budget calls for deficit spending of $710,328. That is not the C/A doing his job. Shouldn't he at least try and propose a balanced budget?
Cutting the animal control officer? That is low hanging fruit. Now is time for the hard decisions. There are not a lot of obvious places for cuts.
Since the "written narrative" is the same as the last several budget years, it is hard to tell if employee raises are proposed or not. Given the proposed deficit, I'm guessing no (and if they are, it looks like Crestwood can't afford them).
8:36 PM BLOGGER: Animal control is finished, were I you I would find another horse to ride!
Tom Ford
@4:26 PM, November 18, 2013
No need to tell or expect me to demand a thing. All members of the BOA have a had a copy of the 2014 budget since 11/14. If you check the City's website or go to City Hall you will see there is a BOA works session set for 11/19/13 starting at 6:00 p.m. I expect, no I demand that you next time to be more informed.
If you had been at the BOA meeting of 11/12/13 you would know that I reminded the Mayor of this meeting to prevent a possible time conflict with a meeting he was setting up with the Friends of Animal Control.
As I told MS. Duchild, it is the political season in Crestwood and the players are gearing up to make their person look the best and their opponent look terrible. Happens every year at this time.
This isn't my first rodeo. Do you really think anyone who has attended BOA meetings for the past several months isn't aware of what certain former Aldermen and their allies are doing? Letters to the newspapers, canned speeches to the BOA for the benefit of the news media. Nothing wrong with that, but don't act surprised when I call it as I see it.
So who would you like to see replace Mr. Sime if you defeat Mayor Schlink? Isn't that what you are really after?
Since the demise of the animal control position I would be wary of attending any rodeo in Crestwood. Try to stay on for longer than 8 seconds next time.
The CA is a keeper...!
It costs us too much to fire them...anyway.
At $750K, you have to start thinking about the big cuts...police and fire. Contracting with County for police would be easy to do. Figuring out what to do with fire would be difficult. Annex parts into existing districts and rent out the firehouse to one of them? That'd save public works and our parks for sure.
The Barney Fifedom is off limits. period.
Attending the Ways & Means meeting tonight would be a good first step in finding the answers to your questions, if you are truly interested in obtaining information.
Martha Duchild
http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-Impact-News-i-2012-02-29-258965.112112-Eastman-presents-list-of-cuts-recommends-none-be-made.html
Where are Mr. Sime's proposed cuts? Will he make them tonight?
Here is how you can find out for your selves what Mr Simes knows, is aware of and what he cut and didn't cut.
Ask him.
msime@ci.crestwood.mo.us
Please be advised that we will not discuss personnel actions here. to that nd I have removed all references to same.
Tom Ford
http://www.stlouisco.com/Portals/8/docs/Document%20Library/police/Contracts.pdf
It's time to join Fenton, Wildwood, Grantwood Village, Oakville, et al. and sign up with the County for police services. Where else do the savings come from sufficient to balance the budget? Options:
1) Large tax increase--not likely to go over well, despite ex-Aldermen's Foote's continuing efforts
2) Cutting fire--No--we are cheaper than the fire districts, and a quality fire department keeps insurance rates low
3) Cutting parks--nothing much left to cut there, and people want city parks
4) Cutting public works--nothing much left to cut there, and if you are a municipality, you have to maintain the roads
5) New commercial/industrial development--unlikely, as the city has shown to be especially inept at redeveloping the mall, and many of the new businesses are re-sale type stores, and other businesses that typically move into areas where landlords cannot command high rents and attract quality tenants
6) Use cash reserves to balance the budget. The Aldermen will likely take this route, as all politicians are extremely capable of kicking the can down the road and avoiding touch decisions. However, with no obvious signs of Crestwood's finances improving, this would be irresponsible.
Pros of going with St. Louis County--large cost savings, and cost savings the first year would be even higher if all of the old police cars, equipment, etc. is sold
Could demand dedicated local officers like other munis that contract with St. Louis county have
More room for the fire department in the city building
Less administrators/bureaucracy overseeing the police department
Likely insurance savings for not having to carry liability insurance for a police department
Less employees that can sue the city when they leave or threaten to sue the city when they leave
Provisions could be inserted that St. Louis county has to hire X number of ex-Crestwood police officers, and keep them employed for x years
More money in budget to attract and retain quality employees in other departments
Cons: Risk that St. Louis County jacks up rates once initial contract expires
More expensive to start police department from scratch if Crestwood's finances make a drastic turnaround and the city can once again afford to pay for police/fire/parks/public works at an acceptable level
Less direct control over the police department and police issues--given Crestwood's leadership, this may be a Pro rather than a Con for some people
Nothing at all wrong with our police department, but that is the most obvious department for the kind of cuts that balance Crestwood's budget.
You can all tee off on the suggestion now :)
Reference the above post, no personal insults please unless you sign your real name.
Tom Ford
@1:41pm
Agree.
Let's check the numbers:
Wildwood: population: roughly 35,000
Police budget: roughly 3 million
http://www.cityofwildwood.com/DocumentCenter/View/30
Crestwood: population: roughly 12,000
Police budget: roughly 2.7 million
http://www.ci.crestwood.mo.us/s-admin/plugins/events/uploads/Animal%20Control%20Board/2014%20Budget%20-%20BOA%20Draft.pdf
Wildwood pays around $85.00/citizen/year for police services (using St. Louis County)
Crestwood pays around $225.00/citizen/year for police services.
7;44 11/15 - If you are trying to make Roy the subject of this thread - get over it!!!! It is obvious that you want to get your "digs" in about Roy and/or his wife. But you and your co-coercers are living in the past and not the present. Roy is gone period! So you didn't like him and we have to hear the slurs and remarks. I have a solution get your own blog and go on about Roy Robinson on your own time. I am concerned about the future - you obviously still live in the past and can't help yourself from putting your "digs" and petty remarks about someone who is no longer here but still burns your zxzxzx!!
@1:41p and 3:35p. You've nailed it! It makes fiscal and logical sense. However, it's extrememly unlikely the CA would ever make this recommendation and any of the sitting aldermen would go along with it. Could it be put on a ballot by the residents?
Anyone looked a the tax rate in Wildwood lately?
Tom Ford
Wildwood actually has no city property tax, unlike Crestwood.
The property tax rates are a little higher overall in Wildwood, but that is due to the fire district and Rockwood School district being higher than Lindbergh.
The fact that Wildwood, through St. Louis County, can provide police services to a city with three times the population and almost 20 times the physical size of Crestwood for about $300,000 more is noteworthy.
4:11 PM Nov. 20th
What leads you to conclude that it is unlikely any of the sitting aldermen would agree to switching to the county for police services?
Just curious, as I don't believe they have publicly expressed their positions on this topic.
Martha Duchild
At the end of the day, maybe outsourcing police is a good idea, maybe its not, but hopefully the Aldermen at least examine the idea instead of dismissing it out of hand.
A potential benefit that hasn't been mentioned would be dealing with vacation/overtime of officers. I think some have said that Crestwood is already at around the minimum number of officers to effectively staff 3 shifts, and when guys need off or take vacation, the other guys draw overtime, which isn't cheap. With St. Louis County, I would think they are going to have the manpower to move guys around and cover vacations, absences, etc. without overtime being needed.
One thing blocking honest debate about going to a County provided Police protection. The County.
The County in the past, I doubt this hasn't changed, would not give a city any numbers, quotes for their services.
The reason was, in the past when they had given "quotes" the numbers were used in a election campaign regarding hiring them or raising a city's taxes to keep their own police dept.
The County Police do not want to be used as a football to sway an election one way or the other. Can't say I blame them.
However, if one wanted to find out, they could look at the Fenton budget and draw down a comparison for their bill from the County to what Crestwood might be charged factoring the difference in population and square miles. But it would not be 100% accurate.
Section 9.1 of the Charter covers the Initiative power of the qualified voters of the City to propose ordinances to the BOA.. If the BOA fails to adopt a proposed ordinance, the voters may adopt or reject it at a city election.
Here's the rub. The Initiative power is limited by the Charter to what can be covered. The City attorney would have to determent if switching to County Police Dept. is allowed under the Charter by the Initiative method.
Mr. Ford has provided a link to the City website which has an online version of the City Charter if you wish to review for yourself.
I do not have a position on way or the other on this issue.
Tim:
What is your position on a balanced budget?
the city has no issues with changing whatever they need to for the current purpose. I don't feel that aspect should be taken into account. The focus should be on financial savings for the city.
Cities that survive fiscally survive by making tough unpopular decisions.
I don't see that happening our city. Do you?
If the choices are difficult and the leaders involved too frightened to make them then maybe it should be part of a election mandate.
Realistically no revenue will be generated by the Mall site for at least 3 years and that's assuming that Warren Buffet buys it.
I completely agree with opening a conversation with STL County PD. The arguments of increased response time is unfounded as there are no statics to compare. Any violent crime is already handled by STLCO; we could certainly live without the radar traps conducted by Crestwood PD.
@11:53
Tim, no doubt any discussion about moving to St. Louis County police will generate a lot of strong opinions, and many people will probably get emotional and political, and not look at numbers and facts. Leaders are elected to lead though, and sometimes that means making unpopular decisions that need to be made.
What better time than now? The proposed budget looks awful, and there are no aldermanic elections until 2015--all 8 aldermen should be able to vote on this type of issue without facing an immediate election afterward.
Like most things, once the change happens, and the sky doesn't fall, people move on. A year from now, no one will care that we don't have animal control anymore. Perhaps a year after switching to St. Louis County, and receiving similar service, people will appreciate that this was a prudent fiscal move.
More in about County Police contracting can be found here:
http://www.stlouisco.com/LawandPublicSafety/PoliceDepartment/MunicipalServicesandContracting
There are 7 other Aldermen on the BOA. I would suggest you contact yours and make them aware of your concerns and questions.
Tuesday night 11/26 at the BOA meeting is the time for public comment on the proposed budget. That'd be a great time to present this to the board.
Go ahead, present up a storm but all you will do is succeed in driving ou best and brightest to offers elsewhere!
Is this what you want?
Tom Ford
@5:21 pm
It's just an idea. What are your thoughts on finding $700,000+ to cut in the budget?
Or have you joined Mr. Foote in concluding a tax increase is inevitable?
With what Crestwood pays all of its employees, the "best and brightest" in any fields are not considering Crestwood, or if they are here, they are probably constantly looking for a better job elsewhere.
I will have a complete thread on that nd the emotional comments In the Call tomorrow AM, ask me after you read it.
Tom Fork
The best and the brightest have been pre-driven my friend.
what makes you think $700,000 has to be cut from the budget
@10:40
Perhaps that much won't be needed if the City can pull in some grants again this year to balance the books--risky to be dependent on that kind of revenue though.
the logic that has prevailed with the animal control position should also prevail with the police force: if we can't afford it, it should be turned over to the county. Everyone on here is correct: the city cannot afford to pay for a service that we are taxed for elsewhere. But that should also apply to the police. We are taxed for St. Louis County police, yet we continue to support our own force. If that line of logic applies in one area, it should apply in all areas if it is sound logic. It IS sound logic, so .....
7:03 AM Blogger: We can't afford not to have our own police force. Who do you think is responsible for the low crime rate in Crestwood?, animal control?
OUR response time is verified in writing, file a FOIA form and see for yourself, then check County, there is a difference and criminals know it.
Tom Ford
7:28 AM. You are wrong! There are no STLCO officers assigned to Crestwood; no STLCO patrolling Crestwood streets and no STLCO officers responding to calls for citizens.
Please tell us how you can verify STLCO response time would be any better than Crestwood PD!
Tom and other posters--you have to compare apples to apples.
I'm sure Crestwood has excellent response times, because let's face it, we don't have a lot of crime in Crestwood--if there is a serious call, officers immediately respond.
Second, we are not a big city--only about 3 1/2 square miles--the police can get to anywhere in the city fast.
If you look at the overall response times of St. Louis County, you are including such diverse areas as Oakville, Wildwood, Fenton, along with rough patches of North St. Louis County, and smaller north side munis that contract with the County. In areas as big and spread out as north county/south county/wildwood, I imagine response times suffer somewhat. Also, on the north side, you are going to have more calls and more crime, and response times will suffer in those conditions. Not really St. Louis County's fault--just the nature of the beast.
I don't see any reason why if you had a dedicated police substation in Crestwood somewhere, with St. Louis county officers dedicated to Crestwood (like Wildwood and Fenton have), their response times would be any different than Crestwood's response times are now. They would be working with the same small geographic area and low crime rate. And Lord knows there are plenty of empty buildings to put up a police substation.
If I may also chime in; It is my understanding that when the county contracts with a municipality for police service, one of the agreed to points is dedicated manpower. There is a formula that is used to justify that number based on population and crime statistics provided by the FBI. I can only assume this is the same number the current administration uses to staff the police department. So I would again assume there would be no decrease in officers assigned to patrol.
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