To TIF or not to TIF, that is the quwstion.
http://fox2now.com/2013/11/26/should-the-state-help-dead-and-dying-malls/
A fine piece by Mr. Elliott Davis reference dead and dying Malls in the St. Louis area is posted above for your viewing pleasure.
Mr. David is noted for being fair and honest in his reporting, and this is no exception, Now, those of you who believe that people like the MCU group (most of whom do not live here) were right to demand OUR money to prop up a wealthy developer, take a good look at this report.
It seems to me tat all the TIF folks believe is if we don't pony up the cash incentives (and thereby hurt our school district) there is no chance of a developer doing anything.
Well, I beg to differ here as the owner of the new storage shed on Big Bend asked for a TIF before he started to build and was denied.
Guess what? He did it the old fashioned way, he did it himself ! Are you listening MCU believers, and those who would be king?
Tom Ford
NO. 3029
A fine piece by Mr. Elliott Davis reference dead and dying Malls in the St. Louis area is posted above for your viewing pleasure.
Mr. David is noted for being fair and honest in his reporting, and this is no exception, Now, those of you who believe that people like the MCU group (most of whom do not live here) were right to demand OUR money to prop up a wealthy developer, take a good look at this report.
It seems to me tat all the TIF folks believe is if we don't pony up the cash incentives (and thereby hurt our school district) there is no chance of a developer doing anything.
Well, I beg to differ here as the owner of the new storage shed on Big Bend asked for a TIF before he started to build and was denied.
Guess what? He did it the old fashioned way, he did it himself ! Are you listening MCU believers, and those who would be king?
Tom Ford
NO. 3029
posted by Crestwood Independent at 05:24
122 Comments:
I will offer the thought that a storage facility and a shopping mall are 2 VERY different undertakings. The scales of those 2 developments can't even be compared.
I like Elliot Davis, but he is a lot better when he is uncovering public corruption, rather than trying to analyze very complex fiscal and tax policy. As the article mentions, a lot of the trouble with TIF lies in state law.
Economic development begets economic development. Economic stagnation begets economic stagnation. Giving up a portion of future tax revenues to gain a new development that would 1) on its own produce far more in tax revenue for the city than the city would have given up; and 2) attract more people and businesses to the Watson corridor is a no-brainer.
Why do you think the governor and the Republican leadership in the Missouri legislature are willing to give up billions in tax breaks to try and lure Boeing's commercial division to St. Louis? They know that sometimes you have to compete to get projects, and certain projects have a multiplier effect in the community.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/nixon-to-seek-special-session-for-big-boeing-tax-breaks/article_843615fa-7958-5858-8d13-d918da4f3fba.html
As for the storage facility demanding a TIF, and not receiving one? He is building on flat ground (no demo), there are no environmental issues (no remediation), the project won't generate much in tax revenue, and the list goes on. In short, that project is an awful candidate for TIF, and was rightly rejected. Trying to compare that to the mall situation is not a good comparison.
By not agreeing to TIF on the mall project, Crestwood "saved" now non-existent future tax revenues. And Crestwood may well wind up with some kind of housing there, which obviously doesn't generate sales taxes at all. Pretty poor trade-off. When some of the aldermen don't know what a deficit is though, it's easy to see how fiscal policy is not their strong suit.
7:28 AM November 28
It wasn't the TIF request that was the major reason for Centrum's failure to win board approval.
The aldermen (including those who did not take issue with the amount of TIF requested) were never completely satisfied with the concept Centrum offered.
Martha Duchild
I don't know if anyone was 100% satisfied with the Centrum concept, but if everyone agrees that big box retail won't work there, bars, restaurants, and entertainment are the next best thing to generate sales taxes. The Centrum concept will look a whole lot better if housing is really the alternative (or God forbid a not-for-profit University or hospital satellite campus that will generate no sales taxes and no property taxes, as the broker marketing the property suggested).
Jamestown mall closed by the County due to no heat says the morning Post Dispatch!
Do they need a new TIF?
And it matters not what the development is, big,, small, or whatever, if your a developer, pay for it !
What's next, TIF for a home builder? Where does it stop?
Tom Ford
"The aldermen (including those who did not take issue with the amount of TIF requested) were never completely satisfied with the concept Centrum offered"
Did they ever say what would have satisfied them?
On the You Paid For It video, it appeared that Northwest Plaza was being redeveloped by the look of the earth moving machines that were shown. Does anybody know what is going in up there? How did they get going? It looked pretty impressive on the video with everything leveled.
Work with me on this. Budget talk can make your eyes glaze over.
The Senates defines a deficit as: "The amount by which the government's total budget outlays exceeds its total receipts for a fiscal year."
The federal govt is not who I would use as the source for what is and isn't a deficit or for that matter deficit spending.
Unlike the federal govt, Crestwood can not print their money to pay their bills.
Crestwood does does not borrow money to make 2014 budget balanced.
In 2014 Crestwood only spends what it has on hand and incoming revenues, which were collected in the form of taxes, not loans.. After these expenditures, the City has a positive balance year ending 2014. In total funds and by specific fund balances there will be no negative fund balances at end of 2014.
Other definitions of deficit spending since Wikipedia is not acceptable
1. Government spending, in excess of revenue, of funds raised by borrowing rather than from taxation.
2. When a government's expenditures exceed its revenues, causing or deepening a deficit. This excess spending needs to be financed through borrowing, likely from foreign governments.
3. The spending of public funds obtained by borrowing rather than by taxation.
4. The practice of spending funds in excess of income, esp. by a government, usu. requiring that such funds be raised by borrowing, as from the sale of long-term bonds.
5. Government spending in excess of what they take in as tax revenue.
6. Spending money raised by borrowing; used by governments to stimulate their economy.
The reason for spending so much of the Capital Improvements starting fund is due, in part, to the Spellman Ave project. In 2009 the BOA was told by the C/A, and Public Works Director that the total cost to the City for Spellman would be $368,800. The actual cost to date is $1,015,262. A difference of $646,462. Neither the 2009 C/A or Director are employed by Crestwood at this time. Neither the current C/A or Public Works Director were employed by the City in 2009.
The 2014 Capital Improvements Fund uses $778,531 of its beginning 2014 fund balance of $1,201,728. Included in this figure is $235,500 to be spent on motor vehicles and heavy equipment for the Public Works department. At the BOA meeting of 11/26/14 the 2014 budget was discussed by the public and the BOA. The BOA voted for a second reading at the Dec 10th BOA meeting.
In the discussion on the 2014 budget, the BOA a motion was made by Alderman Paul Duchild (Ward 3) to remove from the budget the spending for motor vehicles and heavy equipment($235,000) from the Capital Improvements fund. At least four times this motion or a variant of the motion was made by Alderman Duchild. Each time it failed to pass. The four Aldermen voting for the reduction in spending were:
Trueblood Ward 2
Duchild Ward 3
Boston Ward 3
Tsichlis Ward 4
The four Aldermen who voted against the reduction in spending were:
Breeding Ward 1
Wallach Ward 1
Stadter Ward 2
Tennessen Ward 4
The point can be made that if the definition of deficit spending "The amount by which the government's total budget outlays exceeds its total receipts for a fiscal year" applies to the City of Crestwood, that 50% of the BOA voted for deficit spending at the BOA meeting of 11/26/13.
I am not going to make that point, however if you wants to do so, then the four Aldermen who voted for "deficit spending" need to be held accoutable for their votes.
Tom:
Please explain how TIF's "...hurt our school district".
As I understand TIF, it doesn't take existing $$$ away from taxing districts....just some of the future $$$ AFTER the project is built and generating additional revenue.
In fact, as I understand it, TIF actually "Freezes" existing tax revenue until the project is built. With the Mall that would appear to mean that the school district would be guaranteed not to loose any existing revenue while the property's value tanks.
Can't see how this "hurts our school district". In fact sitting back and watching surrounding property values drop as the mall drags them down seems like that would cause much hurt to the school district.
11:48 AM BLOGGER: It takes tax money from the school district, I guess you want them to come to us for another increase?
Tom Ford
Tom:
It doesn't take existing tax revenue. Only if the project is built and generates an upswing in taxes does some of the tax revenue go to help pay off the TIF. The school district still receives some additional revenue and so does Crestwood. How is this bad?
If the Mall's property value drags down all the rest of the commercial property value THAT would cause the school district to come for a tax increase. However, TIF FREEZES the Mall's value and the redevelopment generates new revenue and stabilizes surround values the school district would be less likely to ask for a tax increase.
Why weren't you worried about the malls property value when Centrum bought It for 17 million , well below what Westfield paid for it? Is that different?
Now the schools do not like a TIF, why would that be if what you say I true?
Tom Ford
Tom:
I was worried then, but at least there was hope of a redevelopment that would generate some sales taxes. Now all we have to look forward to is an institutional use that generates little or no revenue, but drains our taxed services.
BTW, Lindbergh supported the TIF's in Sunset Hills, the Fenton Gravois Bluff and both the Kohl's and Watson Plaza TIF's. Would they have preferred no TIF? Sure, but they understand the reality of commercial redevelopment in a mature suburban community.
@11:41
Tim,
I appreciate the response. I think the Spellman work is necessary, but it's a shame that project went so dramatically over budget.
It seems like the heavy equipment is probably needed, but it seems like Mr. Duchild's motion to remove it this year may have been a good idea to push that expense to next year with all of the Spellman money being spent this year. Has the City Administrator given an opinion on what is a "safe" level of reserves to maintain?
I know you guys do the best you can to balance the budget, and the financial situation in Crestwood is not making it easy.
My fear is that we will all look back at 2012 and 2013 as a massive missed opportunity insofar as the Centrum development is concerned. I genuinely hope I'm wrong and something better comes along, but all of the alternatives that seem plausible or have been suggested (publically or privately) do not measure up.
The Centrum concept, according to three different planners ("the professionals") had little to no chance of success.
Martha Duchild
"Has the City Administrator given an opinion on what is a "safe" level of reserves to maintain?"
No he hasn't, that is the job of the Ways and Means Committee of which he is just a member.
At the BOA meeting of 11/26/13, I asked the Committee to provide what is the safe level by end of the first quarter of 2014. I was told they had plans to do so but not within the time line I requested.
Martha:
Please don't attempt to rewrite history. Crestwood never hired PGAV to do the final Redevelopment Plan/Cost Benefit Analysis that is required as part of the State TIF Law to determine this. This is the document that would provided that final conclusion.
What PGAV did determine was that "It seems to us that there are firm opinions by members of the board about many aspects of this property and the processes associated with achieving redevelopment of this large and topographically challenged site," he wrote. "Based on meetings we have attended and newspaper accounts — to the extent that they are accurate — it is clear to us that many of the board's opinions and premises for action — or lack of it — on this project are not based on factual information."
4:51 November 29
You have offered no evidence to refute the facts contained in my comment. Instead, you have selected text that had nothing to do with an actual analysis.
I will state again, three unrelated planning consultants arrived at the conclusion that Centrum's concept for the mall had little to no chance of success.
PGAV: "The St. Louis market is overbuilt with retail." "For the proposed development program to work it will be critical to have just the right entertainment entities to support the restaurants. The restaurants will not be able to survive without them."
Angelo Gordon's planning consultant concluded that the best use for the property would be a park. Due to its location, the property would not support retail.
Development Strategies (Brad Beggs): "...the site could support housing, but likely not a mass of retail tenants."
Martha Duchild
Ah an IKEA. Moment...
Martha,
Have you read the pre-TIF analysis for West County Mall? They make the place sound awful. Planner such as PGAV walk a very fine line--they have to forecast the project's chance of success, but also provide a basis that the project would not have occurred for TIF, and their analysis must stand up to St. Louis County scrutiny and a likely court challenge. They are excellent at what they do. Nowhere in the PGAV analysis did they use the phrase "little to no" chance of success. That is your characterization, and I think it is a mischaracterization. Because the standard is the project would not have occurred but for TIF, there will be a decent amount of negativity associated with every TIF-project analysis. It is how the game is played.
Also, the challenges that PGAV points out are there no matter what, and they are structural to Crestwood--highway access, being the big one. They were not specific to Centrum's proposal.
With enough money and willpower, anything works anywhere. Walt Disney World was build on swamps, and was in the middle of (at the time) nowhere.
The park proposal is ridiculous. Parks are what you put in when the land won't support any other economic activity. And Crestwood can't support its existing parks in any event.
Crestwood mall was still doing fine (horrible highway access and all) in the early 2000s. And people still somehow manage to navigate 2 miles from the highway to fill Kohl's lot. If something is desirable, people will go there. Crestwood mall wasn't updated and became obsolete in the face of newer and nicer competition. A newly renovated project could do well there, with tax assistance.
Why are you aiming your criticism at me? If you don't agree with the planner's conclusions, your argument is with them, not me.
The purpose of my post was to address those who say that we should trust "the professionals" as only they (and not the aldermen) are capable of rendering a legitimate assessment of a redevelopment concept.
Well, we have the opinions of three professionals and not a single one of those planning consultants fully and without qualification endorsed Centrum's concept.
Martha Duchild
9:00 AM BLOGGER: Well it looks like another trip to the opposition camp boiler room for more "talking points" is needed.
Martha seems to have taken your milk money on that one, so what else ya got?
Tom Ford
Well Crestwood does need every penny of revenue to pay it's bills Tom..
"opposition camp boiler room"
I don't know what that is supposed to mean Tom. Local politics shouldn't be like "us versus them" Washingtonian politics--a little more pragmatism and a little less ideology would go along way.
Anyway, Martha's amended statement is absolutely correct and a more fair characterization of the planners' opinions--she went from saying that the planners said "Centrum's concept for the mall had little to no chance of success", which is not correct, to saying "not a single one of those planning consultants fully and without qualification endorsed Centrum's concept."
10:50 PM Blogger: Yes it does my friend, and I am all for getting it. I am not however for helping to pay for a a project that will fail.
11:23 PM Blogger: "Local politics shouldn't be like "us versus them" No it should not be, but it has been for years here in Crestwood.
"opposing camp?" Well that would be the faction that WILL support the guy who has been posturing to run for Mayor.
I believe Martha's statement is correct. The Centrum concept would have failed in five years or less and we would be stuck holding the bag!
Bowling ally? Well three of them have shuttered recently in very close proximity, restaurant? Well with no major draw they too fail every day.
They are not making dirt anymore, let's do this one right for a change.
Tom Ford
Tom:
Please advise how .."we would be stuck holding the bag" if the Centrum project went under?
Centrum would have been left holding the bag as they would have had a pile of worthless TIF Notes.
Crestwood would have had modern Lifestyle Entertainment project generating some sales tax revenue.
Martha:
"You have offered no evidence to refute the facts contained in my comment"
I ask you one simple question..
Did PGAV produce the Redevelopment Plan and Cost Benefit Analysis that is required by State Law to determine if a project that is seeking TIF is viable?
The answer is no they did not. They produced a "Memo" about the concept that identified possible issues with tenant configuration. They did not conduct the required analysis on the project because the City would not let them do it.
Please refrain from asking simple questions that require simple yes / no answers.
Because you are not going to get one.
8:18 PM BLOGGER: Simple, failed spots mean no tax money generated, and no hope of any until a new buyer came in.
Are you willing to sell your lot to someone who history shows would fail and then wait till a new purchaser buys it and starts over?
Lets do it right the first time!
Tom Ford
8:24 PM Dec. 1
Why did you ask the question if you already knew the answer?
The fact remains, PGAV did not give an unqualified endorsement of the project, not only in its memo but also at the board meeting where Mr. Brancaglione expressed skepticism about Centrum's approach to redeveloping the mall. Are you contending that PGAV would have contradicted its own informal opinion had the city engaged its services for a formal analysis?
The answer to your question still fails to refute the facts contained in my comment. You can quibble about PGAV's formal vs. informal opinion, but it does not change the conclusions of the other two planners.
Martha Duchild
Martha:
"Are you contending that PGAV would have contradicted its own informal opinion had the city engaged its services for a formal analysis?"
We will never know the answer to that question... now will we?
PGAV was the City's Expert. The other two, I don't really care about as they did not work for the City.
I question as to why the powers at be were so scared of letting PGAV do the FINAL analysis. It would have cost the City nothing and committed the City to nothing.
Angelo Gordon & Centrum have put the mall up for sale. Time to move on.
Martha Duchild
@9:38
With the mall site for sale (a sale which may never materialize for years, given how long some commercial real estate in Crestwood has sat), it is good advice to not dwell on Centrum's proposal since that won't be happening.
However, the powers that be would do well to learn from their mistakes so Crestwood doesn't repeat them when the next buyer comes along. Perhaps the city attorney could put on a presentation regarding public financing, similar to the presentation she presented on the Sunshine law. Many of the aldermen could use an education in that field.
7:18 Dec. 4
1. What mistakes were made?
2. Which aldermen could use an education in public finance?
Martha Duchild
7:18 AM Blogger:
"similar to the presentation she presented on the Sunshine law"
Well that worked well didn't it? I give you the "Starbucks four" who apparently missed it the first time around.
Tom Ford
The Starbucks Four was cleared by the Attorney General. Can we not move on to more positive things? Why does every thread go directly to the negative? We have a lot of talented, educated, passionate residents in Crestwood who would love to volunteer, and help the city flourish. They hesitate to do so because of all the negativity.
11:05 AM Blogger: Not quite, I believe there was some sort of letter to the City. please check it out.
If your going to venture into politics ("all politics is local," T. O Neal) then you have to be ready to take the heat. If one is thin skinned so to speak, running for any office is the wrong thing to do. It's been that way since the Nation was founded.
Also, why are you not making the same comment to the "mall folks" who constantly berate the City Fathers reference the Mall's closing?
Tom Ford
Tom, I'm not talking about running for office, those positions are fair game, it comes with the territory. I'm talking about volunteers for other boards and committees that could utilize the talents and skills of our residents. Thanks for hosting this blog, there aren't a lot of forums like this.
11:31 AM BLOGGER:! I think everyone should serve, or at least ask to serve on a volunteer board, I have, and it's a great way to learn about you town'
Tom Ford
The proposed IKEA would be the first in Missouri
The store will sit on 21 acres and is estimated to generate $250 million in new taxes. The store would be more than 350,000 square feet and create 400 jobs.
11:55 AM BLOGGER: Yes and it's in St. Louis, so lets not dwell on what we don't have, but rather what we can get.
Tom Ford
Has anyone seen The Residence at St. Charles lifestyle apartment complex? Not sure if it would fit at the mall site, if you haven't seen it, the website is http://www.residencesatstreets.com
This looks like a nice mixture of housing/retail, the rent prices might be too high for our area.
@8:58
1) not hiring a planner for starters
2) all of them
3:18 PM Blogger: Well the good news is that the filing for Crestwood offices starts on 12 / 17.
May we assume that YOUR name will be on the ballot to insure the City has the chance to benefit from your superior expertise?
Oh wait, you might have to SIGN YOUR NAME (gasp,) and that would be too much, right?
Tom Ford
@4:15
There is no shame in asking for an expert opinion when you don't know something. CEOs defer to their accounting people, their legal people, their marketing people, etc. all the time when they need to know answers.
I don't expect my aldermen to be experts one every issue that comes before them. I expect them to exercise the good sense to ask for expert advice when they need it and when the issue demands it. If any of the aldermen, despite their backgrounds, claim to be an expert in public finance, that is just pure unadulterated hubris.
4:26 PM Blogger: Perhaps you missed the fact that THREE PLANNERS did give opinions (even I know about them.)
Nobody but Centrum that I know of was happy with the usage, so I would say our Alderman did a 4.0 job on this one.
Also no one on the Board has ever claimed to be an expert in public finance, so if you are, please come forward and assist them at the next planning session.
Tom Ford
I still cannot justify public money, my money, used for private business profit/benefit. The opportunity should stand on its own merit.
Poster 12:28 PM, December 04, 2013
"Has anyone seen The Residence at St. Charles lifestyle apartment complex? Not sure if it would fit at the mall site, if you haven't seen it, the website is...."
Part of the Streets of St. Charles
http://www.residencesatstreets.com
... WITH??? An AMC Luxury Theater and restaurants... say it isn't so!
Martha:
"Angelo Gordon & Centrum have put the mall up for sale. Time to move on."
Move on to what?
9:32 PM Dec. 4
The next chapter.
Martha Duchild
I still think a town square with lots of green space and room for food trucks, concerts and the like is the best option for the mall.
11:45 AM BLOGGER: Yes but with som resident type buildings for tax funding.
Tom Ford
The next chapter of..
'War and Peace..'...I think.
Hope I Last long enough to see the ending...
There should be no judgments or opinions given on this blog unless they are sent to and approved by a planner. Thank you for your cooperation.
@7:51
Yes, I'm also a fan of uninformed rants myself.
Martha:
What exactly is the "...the next chapter"?
What do you propose?
7:51 PM BLOGGER: See the above thread.
8:25 PM BLOGGER: Well, your doing it so I suspect you are.
Tom Ford
Kinda like an Obama T.V Interview?7.51? and posters you don't like you can turn over to the IRS?
Another good post, Tom. You and I don't see eye-to-eye on national politics, but we SURE do agree 1000% on TIF handouts to wealthey developers!
I just read the latest smartmouth offerings from that Barkett guy of Centrum, and every time he opens his mouth, I'm a) glad we denied them, and b) more convinced the government has NO BUSINESS making "investments" in business for WHATEVER reason, unless it is a PUBLIC property or function.
In fact, to me, the SINGLE BIGGEST WELFARE PROBLEM draining our pocketbooks today are welfare handouts to big business to "get them to do something". People who think we taxpayers need to fork over millions and billions to corporations or developers I guess don't realize they are supporting WELFARE of the worst kind - welfare for those who need it least.
It's simple, folks: If no developer wants to develop Crestwood Mall without a tax handout, then there is fundamentally NO reason to do it - remember "market driven"?
So please, would all you people willing and anxious to hand over more millions to developers just because it "MIGHT" return more taxes 20 years in the future are just hopelessly brainwashed by private enterprise to believe in a welfare state for the rich.
In this country today, we talk a LOT (and this includes you, Tom) about how we are creating a "dependent class" of people who depend on government handouts to live.
Well, according to these people, I guess we have created a "dependent class" of businesses and developers who depend on government handouts to develop!
Not sure how anyone can see that's somehow different or better.
Allow me to elaborate: My favorite comment of Barkett's was that he isn't really against eminent domain being used, but that the price would "have to be at least $10 MILLION to cover their costs.." etc. etc. yada yada. Wow. Since when does a property owner DICTATE what the government will pay for a property taken eminent domain? What a smug attitude! Now I AGREE with ol' Bark that courts HAVE been generous to large property owners (of course, our courts ALWAYS favor the wealthier) while never paying market value for RESIDENTIAL property taken to build a mall - ask any property owner in the way of a mall or development how much they got for their property! But that doesn't change one thing: It's not CENTRUM or BARKETT who makes this decision - WE THE PEOPLE do. And in this case, it'd be hard to argue that property is worth anywhere near that much. If they paid more for it and lost money, so be it - too bad. That's the cost of the risk one takes to potentially make profit. If profit is GUARANTEED, like Barkett seems to think should be the case, then there is no risk and hence NO PROFIT. This guy needs a lesson in economic reality, and perhaps loosing his shirt on this development will teach him a thing or two about it.
If I were on the board (and I'm thinking of running - hmmmm?) I'd be proposing eminent domain at about half that - maybe $5 million. That gets it within the range of our expensive police lab several mayors ago wanted to build for $5 MILLION (almost bankrupted our city until Robinson came along and nixed it), so we can afford it. Then get RFP for something smaller scale - like Barkett proposed, maybe even, but for a LOT less money! I still think mostly residential is the best use for that property, with some mixed small retail.
So it's time to move on to more realistic proposals, and the first step is to take it away from the smug losers holding it up now with their big dreams of making millions off the Lindbergh taxpayer! Eminent domain, and Mr. Barkett, WE DECIDE how much you get, not you! Just like with the homeowners who lose their property to mall developments. And in this case, the REALITY is, that property's not worth much! So that's what they get - end of story.
@9:05 Good thoughts, but unfortunately, the world never has been and is not currently purely market driven. The new IKEA in St. Louis--30+ million TIF. Trying to bring Boeing's commercial division to MO? 1.7 billion in tax breaks over 20 years. The reason TIF is offered is to develop a property that the market otherwise wouldn't.
Your opinion is:
"It's simple, folks: If no developer wants to develop Crestwood Mall without a tax handout, then there is fundamentally NO reason to do it - remember "market driven"?"
Many in Crestwood (residents, and businesses) would rather see something there than nothing, even if it means a handout to a developer. That is the way the world works. And you wonder why Crestwood's neighbors have shiny new developments while we hang on to Route 66 glory days and live in the past?
@9:23
The only way the city could use eminent domain would be if they financed it through a bond issue or did it in conjunction with another developer. The city is running a deficit this year, and 5 million is almost 1/2 the total operating budget (assuming you could even get the mall property for that price). It is probably valued closer to 10-15 million , which would be in excess or equal to Crestwood's total budget. No reason to use eminent domain unless you had another development lined up that would pay the city back. Sure, I guess you could use eminent domain and make a park--Crestwood wouldn't be able to afford to maintain it, wouldn't be able to handle the finance costs of the use of eminent domain, and I'm sure Lindbergh would love having that much commercial acreage taken off the tax rolls completely if a city bought the property and kept it.
12:42 PM BLOGGER: By " many in Crestwood would rather see something there" are you referring to the man ho would like to be Mayor and his supporters?
Just curious as most I have talked to want to see it done properly, not just " anything" for the sake of filling a slot.
Tom Ford
@2:59
While there are probably as many opinions on the mall as there are residents of Crestwood, I think most (meaning 50%+) of the citizens of Crestwood were probably on board with Centrum's proposal. How many hundreds of people were in attendance at the final town hall meeting? That group was probably 75% pro-Centrum development.
Obviously you want the project done "right", not just "something there", but many people believe it or not were on board with the entertainment concept. I personally like it better than the husk of the old mall.
As a side note, some interesting comments in the South County times today:
Barket revealed that Centrum recently had approached several local developers, including Pace Properties, G. J. Grewe and Capital Land, to explore a joint venture for the mall property.
"All of them had the same response," wrote Barket. "Given the city's reluctance to provide public assistance, it is impossible to make anything work on the site, and until there are new people on the board that are pro-development and not anti-subsidy, they will not go near it."
http://www.southcountytimes.com/Articles-Features-i-2013-12-06-191029.114137-FOR-SALE.html#ixzz2mjd3yNk6
I fear that the Board's treatment of Centrum will be an enduring issue for the City. If you weren't going to work with Centrum, fine, but the way the Board handled Centrum, and the general anti-TIF sentiments voiced have apparently soured other developers from even attempting to work with the city.
4:14 Dec. 6 - Your last sentence says it all. And you are correct.
According to the newspaper I just read that comes out on Friday, (Times) you are correct that other developers would have joined in the development of a new mall but because of the fact that Crestwood seems to be anti-TIF, they won't touch it. And I can understand why.
Further, think about it> According to the newspaper today, there would have been interest by two other developers to purchase the Mall with TIF money. But all the bad press and controversy about not wanting a TIF turned them against getting involved. AND MOST IMPOORTANTLY, they could have given Crestwood a much better and much more desirable plan. One that would satisfy everyone, even Martha.
The two developers are very knowledgeable and could have come up with something we all liked - but you all are so against using TIF money.....(I have never seen such negativity in my life) about this - I mean, come on and get real - no developer can eat the money it would cost just to eradicate all that asbestos much less what it would cost to build it back up to our satisfaction.
I can tell you right now that we have no one on that board of aldermen who will get us anywhere including the mayor. Sorry but I am so angry about the way this whole Mall issue has been handled. They are all like a deer in headlights - going through some kind of coma!!!!
Crestwood is getting a bad rap for it and we are the laughing stock of other cities because of it. I know lots of people, friends and family, all through the city and county. They all cannot understand what is wrong with Crestwood and I have no defense. The city handled this Mall like a bunch of first-graders!
And that's why we have not moved on this issue not even one inch. Further, this TIF money has been so propagandized that people who don't even understand it are scared of it and made to be scared of it. And don't tell me that the average Crestwood citizens understands TIF. They DON'T UNDERSTAND IT - THEY FEAR IT! There are a lot of things to consider when speaking of TIF money and you can't tell me that it was even given a fair shot.I don't understand the thinking. Face a few facts! What developer has that kind of money to dish out right now? Can you NOT just look at the enormity of that Mall, and imagine how much money it would take any developer just to get started???? First crack out of the box would cost a fortune in of itself - the Asbestos eradication.
I can tell you right now, I would have been on board with a TIF and with that knowledge good developers could have come up with a plan that Crestwood would like.
5:11 - "According to the newspaper today, there would have been interest by two other developers to purchase the Mall with TIF money. But all the bad press and controversy about not wanting a TIF turned them against getting involved. AND MOST IMPOORTANTLY, they could have given Crestwood a much better and much more desirable plan. One that would satisfy everyone, even Martha."
Correction: My understanding is you cannot PURCHASE property with TIF money. TIF can be used for redevelopment, infrastructure improvements, remediation and mitigation of certain hazards, demolition, etc. Even Martha knows this.
9:23 "That gets it within the range of our expensive police lab several mayors ago wanted to build for $5 MILLION (almost bankrupted our city until Robinson came along and nixed it)"
Correction: a group of citizens went door-to-door in the summer of 2005 and collected 2000+ signatures and submitted petition to stop the movement of city hall operations to offices in Crestwood Plaza. This, along with cost overruns, stopped the building of the police station and modification of city hall.
"The two developers are very knowledgeable and could have come up with something we all liked"
How do you know? Have you seen their plans?
(you continue)" - but you all are so against using TIF money.....(I have never seen such negativity in my life) about this - I mean, come on and get real -"
We are real. Maybe some of us are willing to use economic development tools when the plan is agreeable to most of the board. A piano bar, bowling alley, and grocery store - does these things warrant a TIF? Half of the board thought so, half didn't.
4:14 PM BLOGGER: Most of those people were from the MCU group (like the same ones we saw at the mall.)
It's easy to stack bricks, decks and an audience to sway an outcome my friend, an I am betting that was the case there.
Who else ya got?
Tom Ford
4:14 PM "While there are probably as many opinions on the mall as there are residents of Crestwood, I think most (meaning 50%+) of the citizens of Crestwood were probably on board with Centrum's proposal. How many hundreds of people were in attendance at the final town hall meeting? That group was probably 75% pro-Centrum development."
Out of that one meeting, you make the claim that 50+ % liked Centrum's proposal? Or as you put it "on board"?
You might get close to that number IF you poll citizens about getting something/anything done ... but I never saw a lot of enthusiasm for Centrum's proposal. Enthusiasm for the proposal - I saw little of that. Enthusiasm to get something done - I saw a lot of that.
I can tell you right now, I would have been on board with a TIF and with that knowledge good developers could have come up with a plan that Crestwood would like.
5:11 PM, December 06, 2013
Wonderful! The mayoral election is this April. Signup starts this month. Once you sign up, you can tell us your agenda!
not to mention telling us WHO you might be.
Tom Ford
"My understanding is you cannot PURCHASE property with TIF money"
Yes you can. Done all the time.
Please name some examples then. I haven't seen TIF money used for purchases - doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
So please share. If it's done "all the time", you should have no problem naming ten - fifteen examples - especially in the metro area. While you are at it, please name the property, the developers involved, the amount of TIF, the economic impact of each development to the local area and to the region as a whole. Since you are an expert ... while I bet you might even be a planner ... this should be no problem.
Bet you do it all the time.
So is TIF money available to purchase Crestwood Plaza? Maybe someone could get some TIF money together and run with Centrum's wonderful, brilliant, innovative, exciting, purposeful, and exceptional concept!
There might be hope yet folks! When you get done with your bowling game, you might be able to finish off a scotch and water at the piano bar yet!
Poster 8:27 PM, December 06, 2013
What does 15c say?
(15) "Redevelopment project costs" include the sum total of all reasonable or necessary costs incurred or estimated to be incurred, and any such costs incidental to a redevelopment plan or redevelopment project, as applicable. Such costs include, but are not limited to, the following:
(a) Costs of studies, surveys, plans, and specifications;
(b) Professional service costs, including, but not limited to, architectural, engineering, legal, marketing, financial, planning or special services. Except the reasonable costs incurred by the commission established in section 99.820 for the administration of sections 99.800 to 99.865, such costs shall be allowed only as an initial expense which, to be recoverable, shall be included in the costs of a redevelopment plan or project;
(c) Property assembly costs, including, but not limited to, acquisition of land and other property, real or personal, or rights or interests therein, demolition of buildings, and the clearing and grading of land;
(d) Costs of rehabilitation, reconstruction, or repair or remodeling of existing buildings and fixtures;
(e) Initial costs for an economic development area;
(f) Costs of construction of public works or improvements;
(g) Financing costs, including, but not limited to, all necessary and incidental expenses related to the issuance of obligations, and which may include payment of interest on any obligations issued pursuant to sections 99.800 to 99.865 accruing during the estimated period of construction of any redevelopment project for which such obligations are issued and for not more than eighteen months thereafter, and including reasonable reserves related thereto;
(h) All or a portion of a taxing district's capital costs resulting from the redevelopment project necessarily incurred or to be incurred in furtherance of the objectives of the redevelopment plan and project, to the extent the municipality by written agreement accepts and approves such costs;
(i) Relocation costs to the extent that a municipality determines that relocation costs shall be paid or are required to be paid by federal or state law;
Poster 8:27 PM, December 06, 2013
Watson Plaza G.J. Grewe $2.0 million for land acquisition (Old Service Merchandise)
Specific enough for you?
http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-i-2004-06-09-87478.112112-TIF-proposal-for-Watson-Plaza-discussed-by-Crestwood-panel.html
5:53 PM & 8:27 PM PM Dec. 6
Your time might be better spent educating yourself on TIF.
I highly recommend Armstrong Teasdale's Summary of the Missouri Real Property Tax Increment Allocation Redevelopment Act. Had you read this document before you posted, you would have avoided making the erroneous statement about TIF and land acquisition.
Martha Duchild
@8:33
Why the mocking of the entertainment concept. You realize one of the proposed tenants, Hofbrauhaus, is a "one per city" type place, like Ikea? And that they are wildly popular?
1:20 AM Blogger: " . You realize one of the proposed tenants, Hofbrauhaus, is a "one per city" type place, like Ikea? And that they are wildly popular?"
Indeed, but the fact was (and is) that Centrum had NO ONE signed on to do anything, not even a prospectus, so until they were signed, it's a moot point.
I could propose to put up a large tent. stock it with chairs and a pulpit but that does not mean Elmer Gantry would show up to preach.
Three things Centrum lacked on that deal, tenant's, tenant's, and TENANT'S!
The Board did the right thing on this one. I know you don't believe me but time has a way of proving me right (or wrong.)
I truly believe Crestwood will come out ahead in the long run, I really do else I would not be so adamantly against the TIF for Centrum, or it's proposals.
Were from Missouri, "show me" something that has a chance of successes (for more than 5 years) and I too will pick up a pitch fork and join the MCU if needed to get it done.
So far that (joining the MCU gang) has not happened, and for good reason.
Tom Ford
OMG - I NEVER said that the Mall property could be PURCHASED with TIF money! TIF money can be used by a developer after the initial purchase. OK? Just read the Friday Times Newspaper. I am just repeating what was said and telling you that there was real interest by good developers(NAMES GIVEN IN THE TIMES NEWSPAPER). TIF money could be used in the CONSTRUCTION OF AND NOT THE PURCHASE OF the Mall. The Times Article by Ellen Duggan (spell) - gives the NAMES OF THE DEVELOPERS! Get It? 7:28 am 11/28 makes sense with his comments too especially the last paragraph! I am not saying anything other than how I feel regarding what was already said in the Times Article and giving my opinions. Thank you!
"According to the newspaper today, there would have been interest by two other developers to purchase the Mall with TIF money."
"OMG - I NEVER said that the Mall property could be PURCHASED with TIF money! TIF money can be used by a developer after the initial purchase. OK?"
"Property assembly costs, including, but not limited to, acquisition of land and other property, real or personal, or rights or interests therein, demolition of buildings, and the clearing and grading of land;"
Clarification please-
So, if I'm Mr. Developer, I can go up to the local governing body and ask for Tax Increment Financing so I can BUY the land (development, plaza, etc.)for the INITIAL purchase? Now, I, Mr. Developer, do NOT OWN ANY part of the parcel in question as of YET, but I am seeking ownership. I can apply for a TIF and if I am successful, use that TIF money to purchase?
I'm not questioning acquisition or expansion AFTER purchase. I'm talking about INITIAL ACQUISITION.
I'm also not talking about part of a project either.
I own nothing - zero, zilch. I don't own ANY of the proposed project, parcel, etc. Can I apply for a TIF and use that money to buy?
Please clarify.
Why the mocking of the entertainment concept. You realize one of the proposed tenants, Hofbrauhaus, is a "one per city" type place, like Ikea? And that they are wildly popular?
1:20 AM, December 07, 2013
I have to take your word for it. Never heard of them.
Did the developer have any documentation such as a letter of intent, a signed lease, a post-it note, anything?
Poster 8:27 PM, December 06, 2013
Watson Plaza G.J. Grewe $2.0 million for land acquisition (Old Service Merchandise)
Specific enough for you?
http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-i-2004-06-09-87478.112112-TIF-proposal-for-Watson-Plaza-discussed-by-Crestwood-panel.html
10:38 PM, December 06, 2013
Again, please clarify.
Grewe ALREADY owned the adjacent property. The parcel was adjoining and would have been part of the bigger project.
If Grewe owned NONE of it, could he have gotten a TIF and THEN PURCHASED that plaza?
What I meant in my earlier post 5:53 PM, December 06, 2013 was this - can someone who has no ownership, claim, or attachment to said property, apply for a TIF and then use TIF money to purchase said property. That is where I was coming from. I understand land acquisition - where I seek clarification is how far along the ownership trail do you have to be to seek TIF?
...to be able to seek TIF?
Another question: Is the mall site designated as a TIF District/Redevelopment area?
Poster 10:33 AM, December 07, 2013
The TIF for Grewe for Watson Plaza was for to purchase the Service Merchandise he didn't own that, just the rest of the center
As for your other question. Yes. The City could name Pace or Grewe as the developer for the mall. Grewe or Pace could then negotiate a TIF deal with the City. Grewe\Pace would then buy the mall from Centrum using their own $ and demo and rebuild. They would ask the City to issue TIF Notes (IOU from the TIF to Grewe/Pace) as they incurred expenses, such as land acquisition. After the project was built and generating $$ they would then ask that the City issue TIF Bonds. They would cash in their Notes and the proceeds of the TIF Bond Sale would be used to pay the notes. If the project never generates enough $$ to do a bond issue then Grewe Pace can only cash in on a pay as you go basis. No City money is used and the City takes no risks. If the project underperforms then Grewe/Pace are out the $. The City still gets their half of sales tax and the school district gets personal property tax.
11:09 AM, December 07, 2013
Another question: Is the mall site designated as a TIF District/Redevelopment area?
No, Crestwood wouldn't even do the necessary study and produce the necessary TIF Plan\Cost Benefit Analysis to have the basic information on site, project etc.
1-:51 PM BLOGGER: Why spend a dime on a project with no tenant', and doomed to failure?
Why is the school district happy that it didn't go through? (Just ask them.)
Why continue to complain, it's over (unless your running for. Mayor, or. Cheer leader for a person who is?)
Tom Ford
1:49 PM Dec. 7
"No City money is used and the City takes no risks."
What about the risk of putting in an underperforming development that may fail in a few years at the opportunity cost of losing out on a better redevelopment plan that would generate increased revenues for a longer period of time?
I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with the Crestwood Mall property, I only say this to highlight your narrow definition of risk.
There are multiple and varied risks to any redevelopment decision, and it is up to the board to evaluate those risks and determine what the best course of action is for the city.
Martha Duchild
What about the risk of putting in an underperforming development that may fail in a few years at the opportunity cost of losing out on a better redevelopment plan that would generate increased revenues for a longer period of time?
How do you, or the board, determine what will or will not be under-performing?
1:49 PM Thank you for the information.
Certain steps - criteria have to be met for the developer to use TIF to REIMBURSE himself for certain purchase costs. As I thought, a developer cannot go out and purchase land, development, etc on TIF notes without certain conditions being met - the city chooses the developer etc. So what do you know I was correct. A developer cannot go out and purchase anything with a TIF. A developer can be reimbursed certain costs after the project generates $$$. Big difference - purchase vs. reimburse. You say tomato and I say tomato.
Poster 3:50 PM, December 07, 2013
The TIF is usually used as collateral for the developer to get a loan. So yes, it is used up front to purchase the property.
Tom:
How can you make the determination that the project would have been ...."doomed to failure?"
PGAV never produced the study that would have confirmed or denied that assumption.
Martha:
What exactly is the "...better redevelopment plan"? A park?, Sen
ior housing that drains services and produces no sales tax?
We never got a final report on the "risk" associated with Centrum's plan. That would have been in the Cost/Benefit Analysis that was never conducted and wouldn't have cost the City a dime to produce.
Any guarantees with that Cost/Benefit Analysis?
4:48 PM BLOGGER: Look at the fact that three bowling emporium's closed in the last year alone. Add that to the fact that Resturant traffic is down across the board and you have the recipe for the failure I spoke of.
Look it up on line, drive around the area, but it is what it is. Now to me as a possible consumer, I am not going there, nor would a lot of people, so.
And then there is the 10 1/4% TAX, BINGO, FAILURE!
Tom Ford
6:02 PM BLOGGER: NO, NONE, NOT A CHANCE!
the planners will however be extremely sorry that they were wrong, if, and when said failure happens, that is a guarantee of sorts.
Tom Fordo
4:55 PM Dec. 7
My comment was a hypothetical - I was not specifically referring to the Crestwood Mall site (as I noted in my post). It was a general comment about risk.
A previous poster alluded to a point I was going to make. PGAV gave their stamp of approval to the NOVUS development in Sunset Hills, and we all know what a debacle that turned out to be.
The point is, while a plan may be fine, the developer may not be. That is why I referred to many and varied risks. The plan isn't the only component of redevelopment that needs to be scrutinized.
Martha Duchild
At this point in time, there is nothing anyone can do to turn things around at the Mall. So, what will the board do now and when would be the next thing regarding the Mall the board will need to turn down????? There is enough good information out there for anyone to write a book about, but there is also bad information regarding TIF's that people don't understand. We elect people to make good decisions for us. Somehow they have failed thus far. So I am sitting back waiting for the next shoe to drop and let's hope it isn't the price of our homes as well. If the price of our housing stock goes down you can be sure we will deteriorate here; people won't invest in updating their homes and those desperate to sell, will bring in who knows who to purchase them!
10:30 AM BLOGGER: Did the price of. Homes in Sunset Hills go down when their Novis development flopped? no , they did not.
According to you all on the Board have made terrible decisions, but that's according to YOU. I disagree my friend, I believe that they did their due dillagance when it came to the plaza.
One of us is right on this, I am willing to stay the course and wait to see which one, are you?
Tom Ford
The problems with the mall are symptomatic of a much larger problem the city has had for decades. It makes a fortune off of its business community, but treats them like crap.
Various aldermen, city bureaucrats, and even previous mayors through the years have rode a hard line on our businesses.
Add to that a few residents in this town that think Watson Road should have multiple parks and be a tree-lined street. I hope they know what they are asking for.
In the late '90's early 2000's, Crestwood was very generous to developers - the Kohl's development, Sam's, Grewe properties - but none of that translated into cooperation with existing businesses.
I suspect we will have a contested mayoral race and I suspect that developers will have an eye on that race as well.
If the saturation of local retail prevents a retail only plaza, and the entertainment district is a no-go, what about Information Technology or light industry? Not ideal, for sure, but let's say you have 3000 people working at that site. Where are they going to shop? Eat breakfast? Or lunch or dinner? Get gasoline. It would be a huge boost to our existing businesses and may draw even more.
Thoughts?
12:42 PM BLOGGER: Good point on the plaza space. Something is needed that will last for more time than it takes to sunset the political sub division (TIF.)
Industrial? I would rather see a HQ type campus on the order of Emmerson or Boeing. that would be the answer to our valued business community, as well as the community as a whole.
Tom Ford
Please help me understand how the city of Crestwood does not cooperate with existing business. Examples please.
Some comments were made on the blog talking about how Crestwood treats the business district? Are you saying for the last 2 years or are you saying when the Mall was still here! I can believe that Crestwood treats the businesses badly as much as we need a good business district.
My take is because nobody cares anymore what happens; reason being there is no leadership at city hall. Specifically a good city administrator. Why? Because that person is the one whose responsibility it is to take care of city hall operations. We have not had a good one for a long time, and still don't. And therefore nothing gets done!
I was at Kohl's today and ran into a lady from St. Elizabeth Parish that I know who feels the same as I do. Last week I spoke to a man who told me when he called city hall to ask for someone in Public Works a question, he never got an answer, and was given the brush off by telephone.
The lady I talked to has been trying to get somebody from the city to look into a big trash problem next door to her home. She is tired of trying to call city hall and said she gets nowhere. And I believe it because it starts with the city administrator and he is useless in the opinion of several people I know. If he had all of that trash or any problem against the code right next to his home, you wanna bet something would be done?. I think he needs to be gone. If he isn't going to get things rolling in this town, then he needs to leave.
But nobody cares up there and nobody will, when you have the wrong person or persons in charge that do nothing.
Tom you think because this CA is "military" OMG he is wonderful. We are not a "military" city; we are a city administrator form of government and we have had no direction from him. And the Mayor appoints him! But after that he don't care. He just takes the CA's word on everything. That's not the way it use to be and he needs to be checking on things first hand.
The mayor is the one who appoints him so don't try to tell me that he is making sure that things are going well at city hall because they are not.
There are so many violations I see for myself just walking my dog from homeowners. I see homes that are in violation of our codes all the time. I have called city hall on numerous occasions. I get nothing.
That said, Tom, we think that we are experts on TIF and who and what goes in the Mall? We can't get anybody to run city hall, so how is anybody going to get the Mall issue taken care of when they can't even get city hall straightened out.
I have never seen such a bad attitude from anyone when it comes to violations by homeowners because like this lady said, nothing gets done. A slap on the wrist maybe and then no follow up.
Heck, I am telling you honestly Tom city residents don't care anymore because nobody is watching the store. People get "tired" of getting the run around. If it were just myself, I wouldn't be saying anything. But I have kept it to myself and now I hear remarks all the time.
Public Works Director needs to get on somebody's case because I see violations everywhere! And that is one reason why nobody goes to or cares to go to the board meetings. You can get up and explain something that needs to be done in your area, and I will tell you Nothing Nadda ever develops.
So I wish the city Good luck on the Mall because we definitely need manna from heaven to get the Mall issue taken care of.
More importantly, we need some real leadership at city hall, and we as residents need to get angry that the we are not being heard.
So your blog is the only place I see to sound off. That's my view.
Thanks.
3:24 PM BLOGGER: So the C/a licked all the red off your candy, how, by eliminating a position YOU wanted?
I read nothing more into your post than that, period. If you have lived here for any length of time you know that Roseann Shannon is the code enforcement officer, right?
Did your "friend" ever contact her, if so what was the disposition?
Mr. seim Is the best C/A we have had in some time, and I really doubt anyone can refute that (unless it's made up by..) so if you wish to sign your name I will ask him for you if this story holds water.
Indeed this is a place to "sound off"., but if anyone is going to level the type of accusations you have I require them to sign their real name, or I boot the post.
In this case I ill leave it as a teaching moment, so be advised your lucky this time. Next time if you really believe what your posting, sign it,,and then make an appointment with whomever and discuss it.
Tom Fordp
Anyone in an organization, business, (or in our case, a municipality) who does any cutting or consolidation will not be the most loved or popular. I do not envy members of the board, the mayor, or the C/A. This is a very tough time to be up in city hall. But I am appreciative of their service.
After reading 3:24 and poster's concerns, we may need to step up code enforcement - I don't know. In my subdivision, there doesn't seem to be any outstanding issues.
I will say this. Anytime I've called city hall with an issue, I've always gotten friendly folks and good service. In fact, I called this morning and was helped by someone in Public Works. But anytime - 80's, 90's, and today, I've had very good service from the folks at city hall.
11:21 I am glad that unlike the blog owner, you at least don't think I am making things up (lying) or eluding to the fact that I must be one of the disgruntled ones that were "let go" by the CA. That statement is not true at all. But I am a long time resident of Crestwood, almost 80 years old.
I have no intentions nor have I ever lied to get a point across as indicated in a previous comment. I am also glad you feel that everybody at city hall is treating you well. That's great and it is nice to hear. Because that's the way it use to be and should be. I was around for many, many years and speak from experience.
Unfortunately, there are those who disagree because of personal experiences. What purpose would it serve me or anyone to make up stories?
I know many people in Crestwood and I have enjoyed living here. I want good things to occur here.
I also know however there are always going to be the naysayers in every community but I don't happen to be one of them unless I feel the necessity to have concerns. Good people that I know are expressing dilemma and concern and these people are not just random people I barely know.
The blog owner seems to feel I am not being truthful! That I have a personal grudge for my comments. Ridiculous!
Tom has always been among people who love to talk and be political. He knows a lot more about government than I ever will. But I do like to give my opinions and mine does not always coincide with some who comment on this blog. But other than a few, most all bloggers are anonymous.
Politics and politicians can be very hard to deal with unless you agree with them. It's occurs on every level of government and that will never change Federal, State and City governments all around the globe. But just because someone's opinion is unlike yours, they should still be allowed to voice it, without being threatened to be excommunicated. If so, then everybody should have to sign their names.
All I was doing was expressing my views based on what I read, what I have seen and what good citizens of this town that I know are telling me.
I give my opinion and as I respect other people's, I don't understand why I have to be threatened about what I have said, by being bleeped out of this blog.
Tom, if I don't feel the same way you do about some people who work for the city, why can I not express it? I have not used bad language. I have seen CA's good and bad and come and go; and I have seen dept. heads and mayors and board members I feel are inept; so are you saying that if some people have a difference of opinion than you - signing their name is necessary? There are lots of people on this blog that don't agree with what is happening, I don't see them signing their name and I don't see you taking them to be exiled.
Thanks for your consideration.
11:55 AM BLOGGER : Well if you have been around as long as you say you have why will you not sign your name?
To me those who will not sign their name have no belief in their comments, or are not exactly "telling it the way it is."
Now, what will it be, do you follow the rules, or do you wish your comments to be rejected?
Tom Ford
( THE BLOG OWNER,)
11:55 AM BLOGGER: First of all you have not been "threatened," you have been warned to abide by the same rules everyone else has to.
You made very strong g and desperiging remarks about a valued employee of our City, you need to back them up by signing yout real name.
I am sure you would demand no less, so again, do you want to play by the rules, or do you wish to drop out of this conversation?
Am I clear now? I have given you more lattatude than anyone else has ever had here, I guess because of your stated age, but that too is over.
Tom Ford
Tom, that's not fair because most everyone on your blog is anonymous! Are you saying that you are dubious of all those who are commenting anonymously. I do not want to give my name, just like all the others on this blog except maybe Martha and a few others. If I did not love to live here, if I didn't care about this city, it would not bother me one bit to not express myself on your blog. But if you throw me to the curb, because I don't sign my name and don't do it to all the others who sign anonymously, than you are discriminating. However, I am not going to beg you to let me comment here.
Tom, there have been others that express themselves on the blog when they are disgusted with the city. I am not in a court of law that I need to give my name. Why is it a disgrace to say I feel the CA needs to go? Why do I need to prove it? Why is my opinion being questioned when everyone on your blog that comments are not full of sunshine and roses. I have been to many board meetings in over 30 years, I have seen, read and listened to what goes on at city hall. If I have to prove what I have said, then you are preventing me from my right to free speech and acting like I am in a court of law and need proof. My opinions are just that! My knowledge goes back to the time I purchased a home in Crestwood. It should stand for something. I am not happy that you feel I am as you stated one of the employees who got "canned" by the CA. That is your opinion but it isn't true and not necessarily a nice thing to say, but you say it anyway. If I feel leary about the CA, then why can I not say so? This is not fair but if you feel that you want to nix me; I can't stop you but I can surely say you are predjudicial against me.
Tom, there have been others that express themselves on the blog when they are disgusted with the city. I am not in a court of law that I need to give my name. Why is it a disgrace to say I feel the CA needs to go? Why do I need to prove it? Why is my opinion being questioned when everyone on your blog that comments are not full of sunshine and roses. I have been to many board meetings in over 30 years, I have seen, read and listened to what goes on at city hall. If I have to prove what I have said, then you are preventing me from my right to free speech and acting like I am in a court of law and need proof. My opinions are just that! My knowledge goes back to the time I purchased a home in Crestwood. It should stand for something. I am not happy that you feel I am as you stated one of the employees who got "canned" by the CA. That is your opinion but it isn't true and not necessarily a nice thing to say, but you say it anyway. If I feel leary about the CA, then why can I not say so? This is not fair but if you feel that you want to nix me; I can't stop you but I can surely say you are predjudicial against me.
TO ALL!: This blog is open to ALL of you if you follow the rules, period.
When you cross the line and say so and so is worthless, or the worst whatever your going to be called on it by me, no matter who you are!
I will not allow anyone to not have the chance to confront their attackers! All of us have that right under the Constitution (I know Obama is trying to do away with it,) and I will stand for the accused every time.
"surely say you are predjudicial against me." How is that possible, I don't know who you are! Your starting to sound like a whiney liberal with nothing else to say except to bad mouth your opponent!
You will not find one of my posts, be it nice or otherwise that does any less, and no one else will be allowed to do it either.
"Not fair," we;; life isn't fair my friend, so if you wish to stay on here, do it my way, or you can start your own missive!
Tom Ford
PS: I know that some of you are "posturing" for your boy in the coming election, That said, do not let your zealous persui of your cause get you booted here.
I too have my choice, but I will sign off on everything I say or I won't say it!
I think you all should do no less, so.......
Tom Ford
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You should post some rules Tom instead of having an ever-evolving standard. Your "rules" for the longest time were no personal insults without signing your name. Fine.
However, to now say that someone can't criticize the job performance of the C/A without signing their real name? Way to chill the debate. As a public figure, his job performance or lack thereof is fair game. I would hope an ex-military guy is thick-skinned enough to take it.
I fail to see how the commenter you keep engaging with has personally insulted the C/A--he simply gave an opinion that he didn't like the job he was doing. So be it.
I would also lay off whatever is causing the paranoia--not all of those who are critical of Crestwood know/care about the mayor's race.
8:23 PM BLOGGER: I know who you are which is the ONLY REASON I have let you stay on as long as I have.
you of all people knew the rules yet you willfully broke them! Your .gone!
Tom Ford.
9:42 PM BLOGGER: NO PERSONAL INSULTS ON ANYONE, unless you sign your name.
NO FOUL LANGUAGE OF ANY SORT.
SIMPLE RULES!
job performance is one thing, petty insults are quite another, oh and by the way, what YOU would do is a moot point here. This is my Blog, your here as a guest, when you start your own, you can do as you wish. until then...
Tom Ford
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sadly we have some who just won.t learn! Save yor time and manicure, or do I need to place a permanent ban on your IP address?
If ever you want to do it the right way your welcome at any time, if not, well see the first paragraph.
By the way, if you wish to post in a newspaper or at a Board meeting you must SIGN YOUR NAME. Still thank I an denying your right to free speech? Good grief, get it right for once!
Before you all think that this is a poor defenseless blogger, let me assure you it is not.
Tom Ford
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